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viking_snail

Possible internal parasites/fin rot?

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MB could be acting similar to a salt dip. Makes them poop more and just the actual stress makes them pollute water way more. :)

I am happy it seems to have worked tho.

Edited by Captain Findus Goldfish

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Yeah, I guess it's a very delicate cycle in there at the moment, so any little thing could tip it off balance.

Here's the params for the past few days:

28/03/12

PH: 7.5

Ammonia: 0

Nitrite: 0

Nitrate: 10

29/03/12

Partial water change to remove excess waste

PH: 7.5

Ammonia: 0

Nitrite: 0

Nitrate: 15 (the tap often has nitrates in, hence why it doesn't always go down after a WC..!)

Clive gets MB dip.

30/03/12

PH: 7.5

Ammonia: 0.5

Nitrite: 0.2

Nitrate: 10 (I have a couple of live plants in with Clive, probably why this dropped)

Back to back WCs to bring ammonia and nitrite down to 0.

31/03/12

PH: 7.5

Ammonia: 0

Nitrite: Now this is where it gets confusing. For some reason, the API drops read 0. The Nutrafin drops read 0.2. ??? I've noticed before when I've seen some nitrites with the Nutrafin drops (I'm changing over to API but using up the old stuff first) I've checked it with the API drops - yesterday the API agreed with the Nutrafin test, but it's read 0 before when the Nutrafin one hasn't. When I was having some cycle issues with a betta a while back, I was testing positive for nitrites and got the guy at the LFS to test my water (using API). They came back with 0 nitrites, and said they'd had issues with Nutrafin drops too. So I have no idea!

Nitrate: 10

This morning Clive seems rather perky. Active and eating well again. He really hasn't got alot of tail left you know ... somehow it's looking less angry despite there being less of it. I get the feeling he might lose pretty much all his tail before things start to turn around! I shall post pics soon.

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Okiedokie some pics! He refused to stay still while I was taking photos, but that's probably a good sign!

clive5.jpg

clive3.jpg

clive4.jpg

As you can see he's got very little tail left. But I think he's looking less skinny :)

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Poor darling. He does look less skinny and less black. That's good. I guess the other tail piece will also fall off.

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Yep that bit of tail has come off now. I'm keeping a very close eye on the edges of his tail - so far all looks well, but I sense some more MB may be needed in the next few days.

The cycle seems to have settled down a little now. I'm changing water every day anyway, though, just to keep it super clean. Some trace nitrites keep appearing (it's always the nitrites that are stubborn!), but no more ammonia. I'm keeping a very close eye on it all though.

I am concerned about the level of salt in the tank, and how long Clive has been in salt on and off over the past month or two. He seems to be dealing with it well, but I know there can be problems associated with long term salt use. He's at 0.2% at the moment - do you think that's a good level, or can I afford to reduce it atall? I understand salt may be necessary though, given the state of his tail.

I'm also a little unsure how to go about feeding him at the moment. He's eating the MMs well, but I've been trying to feed him some high protien meals in between. Sometimes he'll eat a little of it, but more often than not he spits it out. I don't know why. Has anyone got any suggestions as to why he's spitting it out, or what I can offer him that might help? I've tried salmon gel food, tuna, and boiled egg white. Also, does he really need extra food on top of the MMs?

I was also thinking of trying to make some probiotic food for once he's finished the antibiotics. Although I have no idea how to go about it, do you think that's a good idea?

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Have you weighed out the MMs? 1% of the fish weight is a LOT and usually there really is no possibility of feeding more.

I would leave the salt until the tail is a little better. 0.2 isn't too bad. Some people permanently keep their fish in such a concentration.

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Yep the MMs have been weighed as best I can. He's having about 20 pellets a day, so I guess that's a fair amount. I won't worry about any extra food, then :) I can't believe I must be feeding enough to make a goldfish actually full! :P

Yeah, I suppose with his tail the way it is, the benefits of the salt outweigh any risks.

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Clive has not been eating well yesterday afternoon or this morning. I got only a few pellets down him yesterday, and he's eaten about 2 this morning. It's strange - he starts off eager for food, eats a few pieces, then loses interest entirely. 5 minutes later he'll spit out one of the pellets he's eaten.

What else is odd is that he seems to be constantly 'gasping'. Although gasping doesn't seem quite right - it's not as urgent, if that makes sense? But his mouth is always moving. I'm wondering if he could have some irritation in his mouth? The black that's on his body is in his mouth - you can see the inside of his mouth is darker when he opens it - it's normally white.

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I'm sorry, Sarah :(

It does seem like he has some mouth/gill irritations. How do his gills look?

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His gills from what I can see are a deep pink/red colour. I can never seem to remember.. they should look darker rather than paler, right?

I wonder whether any more salt or MB dips would help or hinder an irritation..?

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The gills seem about right to me. I think the the priority right now should be just to give him lots of clean, fresh water to heal.

Has the MB dip stopped the advancement of the fin rot? I hope so :)

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I think so... it's difficult to tell. He has practically no tail left now, but what's left is looking a more normal colour, and generally healthy-ish. There's no more red left. I suspect the red parts of his fins may well have already been beyond saving when we did the MB, and maybe it's cleaned up his fin to leave only the alive parts? I will try to take some pics tomorrow so you can see his progress - there's not enough light left today for my useless camera lol.

I'm undecided yet whether to do another MB dip.. I will wait for now and watch how his tail progresses from here, I think.

He's acting very odd with his food. Today I've managed to get him to eat half of his dose of MMs, which isn't great but alot better than yesterday. My mum has been trying to hand feed him while I've been working lol! When I got in, the gasping type behaviour seemed to have stopped - or at least reduced. Now when I try to feed him he seems interested - he's rootling around the tank for food and sucking it up when he finds it. But after a few seconds or so of chewing, he spits it right out. He goes after it again, so he's definetely interested, but always spits it out. I tried him with a bloodworm, wondering if he was having trouble with the size of MMs (not that he was before), but he had the same reaction.

Very odd! But I shall keep trying. He's still more active and definetely less skinny, so fins crossed :)

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I think he wants to eat, but has some sort of mouth/gill irritation. I think we may need to start bringing the salt back to 0.3% (incrementally of course) to help him deal with whatever's bugging him there.

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I think you're right with the irritation. I wondered if there could be some kind of blockage, but I would have thought he'd be acting a bit more distressed or looking bloated if that were the case. Also, he's pooping plenty! At the moment they're long and thin (not really stringy, just thinner than normal) and quite pale, but not white. I have no idea what that could mean.

Do you think the irritation is caused by parasite/infection? I was just wondering whether a dip would work to help flush out gills etc, but if we need a stronger level over a set time to kill off nasties, then yeah 0.3% would perhaps make more sense. He is already at 0.2%, and has been for about a week.

Edited by viking_snail

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Another thing I thought I should mention - one thing he seems to be able to keep down is his poop. Gross, I know, but I've seen him actually eat it twice now. Obviously I'm syphoning out waste, but he's pooping alot lol. I've seen goldies suck up a bit before and then spit it out, but never actually eat it. I have no idea why he's doing this or if it's a bad thing?

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Goldfish eat their poops all the time lol. It's probably because they don't have a stomach, the food that's passed out still has quite a bit of nutritional value :rofl

It's not a bad idea to give him another salt dip. Keep him in there for as long as he is able to :)

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Oh lovely! :P At least it's nothing to worry about I suppose, and at least he's eating :P

Ok salt dip it is! I did 2% last time - same again?

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No, let's go up to 2.5% :)

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Time for a Clive update!

Today he is fairly similar. His tail is looking the same - practically non existent, but doesn't seem to be rotting any further, and there's no red or black at all. He's still swimming well and seeming fairly active. The gasping-type behaviour is still there, but only occasionally - not all the time.

He hasn't eaten well today. Maybe 5 MM pellets.. he's not even showing an interest in them today. This is his 10th day on MMs, and 10th day in 0.2% salt. So far he's had 1 MB dip. The water quality has settled down again now - 0 ammonia and nitrites, but I'm changing water every day just to keep things clean.

I have just done the salt dip at 2.5%. As you said to do it for as long as he could take it, he was in there for 10 minutes. Once he went back in the tank he seemed to have lost his balance a tiny bit - but last time I checked on him he was back in a normal upright position. Once he's had some time to settle down after that, I'll try him with some more MMs.

Here's the best pic I could get of what's left of poor Clive's tail!

clivenotail1.jpg

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I am not sure why this was not mentioned but never leave the fish more than 5 minutes in the salt dips.

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Oh crap, am I likely to have hurt him? :( The last time I did a salt dip it was 5 minutes and none of the fish seemed bothered atall, and this time Alex said to leave him as long as he could deal with it - he didn't lose any balance while in the dip. I misunderstood, I guess! :(

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How long was he in, Sarah?

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It's fine for now. Just don't do it more than 5 mins. And now I would leave him to rest for a few days before thinking of another treatment.

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He was in 10 minutes. I just realised my last post might sound like I was pinning my mistake on you Alex - I really hope it didn't come across that way, because that's not how I feel atall! Just trying to explain my thinking on the salt dip. If I've screwed up atall, it's my responsibility - I'm extremely grateful for all the help you guys are giving me :)

I wasn't planning on doing any more treatments in the next few days, anyway. Unless his tail started looking worse anyway. He seems ok at the moment, pretty much the same as he was before the dip. If anything it looks like the black marking in his mouth has reduced.

Will he be ok with the tank being at 0.2%, or should I remove the salt?

Oh I'm so sorry if I've messed this up, I couldn't forgive myself if I've done something to hurt him :(

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He should be fine, Sarah. Salt dips actually can go to 10 minutes, or even longer, but traditionally 5 minutes has been deemed suffcient :)

How is he now?

He should be OK staying at 0.2%.

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