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viking_snail

Possible internal parasites/fin rot?

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This is info for the QT tank Clive is in:

Test Results for the Following:

  • * Ammonia Level: 0
  • * Nitrite Level: 0
  • * Nitrate level: 10 (10 in the tap)
  • * Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines): 7.5
  • * Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines): 7.5
    Other Required Info:
  • * Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? Nutrafin/API drops
  • * Water temperature? Room temp, about 22
  • * Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? Clive's in the QT tank now - about 100 litres, been running since this morning. The 'normal' tank is 160l, been running about 3 years
  • * What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)? Fluval 2+ and Aquaflow 200 - total of 800lph, seeded with media from the big tank - the big tank has 2000lph
  • * How often do you change the water and how much? In the QT tank I'll change as and when the tests indicate. I usually change 60% and 30% weekly in the big tank.

  • * How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change? QT only set up today, last wc in the big tank was 22/03/12
  • * How many fish in the tank and their size? Just Clive in QT, he's about 4 inches. Normally in the big tank there's 3 of them, all the same size.
  • * What kind of water additives or conditioners? Amquel plus
  • * What do you feed your fish and how often? Gel food/brine shrimp/bloodworm/veggies etc, recently upped to 3 times a day, about 5 pieces each at each meal
  • * Any new fish added to the tank? No
  • * Any medications added to the tank? In QT, Clive's on metromeds and I'm gonna bring the salt up to 0.2%. No meds at the moment in the big tank
  • * List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment. The big tank was recently treated for an excess slime coat issue (we thought due to external parasites) - a course of salt, 1 salt dip and 3 rounds of wormer plus. That seems to have done the job - at least with my other 2 fish
  • * Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? Clive is getting increasingly skinny, his tail is being eaten away to the bone. He's got some fading black marks on him.
  • * Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.? He's been bottom sitting a bit the past few days.

Pics of Clive:

clive1.jpg

clive2.jpg

As requested a new topic for the new issue. As some of you know I've had a possible external parasite issue lately - I've seen excess slime coat and a small amount of flicking/darting. Treated with 0.3% salt for 2 weeks, including 3 rounds of wormer plus and 1 salt dip. This seems to have sorted that issue - all excess slime coat gone, and no more flicking. My other 2 fish, Dave and Kimi, seem very well.

During the last few days of this treatment, Clive started to bottom sit a little, and started to look particularly skinny and weak. He also started showing black marks on his fins and his body. After the salt dip he perked up a little. I assumed he was just feeling run down from the external parasite and treatment, so I've upped the food and increased the protein, hoping to build him up.

The past few days however, he's continued to bottom sit for periods (he's usually a very active fish), and got skinnier and skinnier. Today I woke up to find his tail has pretty much been eaten away - it's in half and I can see the bone. Luckily he's still eating.

I was thinking it was fin rot due to a bacterial infection (the water quality in my tank is always good aside from the occasional nitrate issue because of our dodgy tap water) that maybe took hold when he was weaker during the previous treatment - but considering the weight loss issue, me and Alex are now thinking perhaps it's an internal parasite.

This morning we moved Clive into the QT tank and started a round of metromeds. Luckily he's still eating well so he's taken all the MMs needed today. Also going to raise the salt to 0.2%.

Any thoughts/advice most welcome! Fingers crossed I can save Clive.. this has taken hold very quickly it seems, but he's accepting treatment well and he's a fighter. I just hope my other fish won't be affected - so far they seem healthier than they have ever been.

A quick question regarding the MMs - should I be feeding him anything other than those (e.g. brine shrimp or something) during this treatment?

Thanks!

Edited by viking_snail

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OMG he looks really sad. How fast did he become this thin? I would say to stuff him up with MMs. Is he eating well? I am wondering about the tail issue. Hmmm

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aww :( poor Clive :( I know he's about sevenish from your previous post and that's fantastic in my book he does look pretty bad now though I would have thought the salt and freshwater and added protein wuld have helped ;) sorry I have nothing to offer in remedies but I do send my healing thoughts your way :)

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What I am wondering about the tail is that the MMs might not fix it. It is a mystery why the salt didn't stop/prevent that. Maybe I should also send you some of the MediGold just in case. For the future lol.

Oh there is a thing Michael always uses called methylene blue. You could check with that. I got mine at the pharmacy. It is super mild (also used on fish eggs for fungus). Maybe it can help the tail.

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It's difficult to tell about him losing weight. When I look at pictures of him from a few years back compared to how he looked say a few weeks ago, he has got skinnier - but it's been a slow process so I guess it wasn't so obvious. But it's really been the past week getting worse as time goes on that it's been really obvious. Poor guy :(

Yep he's going on 8 now, so he's a tough little fish. Hopefully tough enough to get through this and have more years of life :)

Fede, do you reckon the tail issue is a bacterial/parasitical fin rot type thing or something else? It is odd that after the salt he's been through that it got this bad though, you're right. Maybe if it's an internal thing though, we've only been treating external problems.

What's methylene blue? One slight issue with that is I think I'd have to change water conditioners - I use Amquel plus and it says on the bottle it can reduce the effectiveness of such medicines. Which is fine if my tap nitrites is at 0, but it isn't always...

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You can get prime in the UK. I get mine shipped from there.

MB is some sort of mild disinfectant I believe. It is a little messy I think. I never used it.

The tail seems like rot but I am not sure why it would be there after the salt. Let's see how he is tomorrow with the MMs. Make sure you feed 1% of his body weight.

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Today Clive is much the same really. He's not bottom sitting all the time - he has periods where he seems quite perky and active, then goes back to bottom sitting. Still eating ok, and he's on the second day of MMs now. The salt has just been raised to 0.2%.

One tiny positive is that recently his dorsal fin has been down, and yesterday evening and today it's been nice and upright.

Will keep you updated!

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Great...if you are able, feed him 2-3 pellets every couple of hours throughout the day. That way he gets enough into the system, and steadily.

Fins crossed for Clive :)

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I've actually had a few days work this week (hence why this is the only topic I've gotten round to posting in lately!) and so I'm not able to break it up as much as every couple of hours, but I'm feeding the MMs in intervals as best I can. It's been manic lately.. busy with work and looking after 3 tanks when the tap water has been varying from 10 - 30 nitrates, so water's being changed at all kinds of silly times of the day. I don't know how you guys keep multiple tanks, I'm shattered lol!

Again Clive is fairly similar, although I think he's getting more active and perky-looking each day. He seems to have up times and down times throughout the day, but given the state he's in I can't say I blame him resting in the day, poor guy.

His tail looks a little smaller, and there's some red streaking in it :( The rest of his fins seem ok though and so far whatever is eating his tail does not look like it's gotten to his body.

This black is still confusing me. He still has quite alot of black markings on him - I noticed today when feeding him that the inside of his mouth looks like this too. Originally we thought it was healing marks - but can there be another explanation? It just seems so odd ... I remember when Bruce became very ill (he had a very badly infected eye tumor thing and evenutall dropsied) he started getting black patches, and there was definetely no ammonia/salt burns there.

One good thing is that Clive was very eager for his latest meal of MMs. He's still been hungry and eager for food during all this, but he's been having more trouble finding the food so it's been taking a while to make sure he eats every last bit - so I think it tires him out a little. But tonight he gobbled each pellet up super quick :)

I've been wondering... if Clive pulls through this, will his tail grow back?

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It should grow back. Blondie had lost all her fins down to the 'bone' and they are back to normal now.

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If it is similar to what happened to my fish's tail, it comes back quick! I think in a couple weeks-maybe a month at most, my fish's tail was longer than it ever was before. Hope your fish gets better soon! :)

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Thanks guys :)

I am getting very concerned about the red in Clive's tail. It's got alot worse over night. The bottom half of what's left of his tail has a big red blotch on - it started out as streaking, and now it's like it's spread. It's a proper red as well, not pink. I will get pictures as soon as I can.

Is this something that can be caused by infection/parasites? Is it septecimia? I've got no idea .. I'm wondering whether the methylene blue could help this or not .. I haven't managed to find any yet, but I'll order it online (along with Prime if need be) if I have to. Does methylene blue disrupt the cycle?

Still not sure about the black either. I don't know how long it takes for healing black marks to fade, or if that's even what it is. Could it be the result of infection?

On a lighter note.. Clive still seems much the same in himself. Quiter than usual still, but I think that's to be expected at the moment. I've definetely seen fish looking alot more miserable with alot less symptoms. And he's eating better each day.

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This is the best pic I could get right now - sorry it's not great, I'll try for a better one later:

cliveredtail.jpg

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Yea he isn't looking fantastic.

So now he is on 1%body weight of MMs right?

Has had 3 salt dips?

In a QT by himself with salt?

Let me just ask Michael to help for the MB.

brb

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Yup, in QT with 0.2% salt and this is the 4th day of MMs. He's only had the one salt dip.

I just wish I knew for certain what the cause was so I'd be better prepared to treat it.. but easier said than done I guess!

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I am a little worried that not only it's not getting better, it is getting worse. :( Can you raise the salt to 0.3? Are all your parameters under control?

I am wondering if the MMs might not be the proper antibiotic. I think the MediGOld would have been better for the tail, but not sure about the thinness.

Would you have access to the Maracyn's for the tail? Maybe Alex can suggest something too.

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Yeah.. on the one hand, it's positive because it's still just the tail and not eating away on his body. But the tail is still getting worse.

The salt can definetely be raised to 0.3%. All the parameters are good - I did a 50% WC yesterday just to be on the safe side and keep everything clean.

The problem with any form of meds with antibiotics is the laws here in the UK. I only have the MMs because you were kind enough to send them to me. It is illegal to have antibiotics in the UK without a prescription - and I've tried to find vets in my area that will deal with goldfish and supply antibiotics, and there's nothing. You can't buy treatments with antibiotics in here as far as I'm aware. So the MMs are the best I've got right now - I guess I need to finish the course regardless since I've started it.

As for the thinness - I guess either bacterial infection or an internal parasite could cause weight loss. He hasn't gotten skinnier recently (I don't think), so that's good. But obviously nothing about this situation is great!

At least he's been more active today.

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Poor Clive. He's in good hands. :hug

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Ok so can I use maracyn along side the MMs? Given the write up it sounds like it would be rather helpful!

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hi viking snail, I am following you story with the rotten fish tails and

for treating fin rots and corrosions I use (as you have done) a repeated strong salt dip followed by treatment with metline blue mixed with something containing acriflavine and some times copper sulfate. this is given also in a bath but can be applied directly upon the wounded area (drops) and then fish is dusted with wound power found in super farmaci (like boots) such as to treat cuts and scrapes contains neomicine and such. Odd this Spring I too have a few fish with this white and dark kind of fin rots and have not yet positively made ID but they are responding to this treatment.

here is metiline blue from Interpet 10 uk . acriflavine is sold but such as NTlabs and others in UK

P1100290.jpg

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Thanks Michael.

As for the Maracyn, yes it can be used together. It is a water treatment.

Maybe your should first try Michael's way which is less aggressive. If it doesn't work we can always try the Maracyn.

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Hmm looks like with a bit more searching I should be able to find that stuff then! My only concern with treating the tail with MB and such is that am I treating the cause, or just the symptoms? Obviously treating the symptoms is helpful, but I need to get to the bottom of what's causing this. Is MB likely to help with that?

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I don't know ... I know I'm usually all for the most gentle treatment option available, but I worry that Clive is in such a state and he's amazing me by hanging on this far ... I don't know if it would be best to cut to the chase.. ?

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The thing is that Michael's treatment is sort of like disinfecting a wound. Once it's done, it's done. You will treat him in a separate tub. No harm to the cycle.

THe Maracyn is a little more stressful and can harm the cycle. Plus the fish will constantly be in it. It might push him over the edge?

I think the tail is a secondary problem. Something else must have started all this. Maybe external parasites? I am not sure.

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