Dropsy Advice

[ninzah 377]

we're going to have problems then.. we need an antibiotic to fight the bacterial infection causing the dropsy.. i'm going to make a shout out to see if anyone can help...

Metronidazole is known as Flagyl, Flagyl is commonly used to treat infections in humans. in fact here, if you have a virus, cold etc, doctors prescribe Flagyl to their patients. i will see who can help.

It's hard to get. I've only ever been prescribed it once from the docs. Mostly it's penicillin or amoxicillin that's prescribed for common illness here (north Fife & Dundee)

[ninzah 377]

Octozin is unlikely to have metronidazole in it since its not available here without prescription. It has been reported elsewhere that users have been advised by waterlife 'technicians' that it contains di-metronidazole. Other people say they have been told its dimetridazole. However they won't confirm the active ingredient in writing.

The bottle I have states Octozine contains - Dimetridazole 8,5% w/w

No other ingredients are listed.

That's good to know but unfortunately isn't what people were hoping for

[Helen 8,511]

i found this information on the drug researched by the Australian Government:

2.1. Introduction

Dimetridazole belongs to a class of 5-nitroimidazoles, some of which are used to treat

protozoal and bacterial (anaerobic) diseases in man and other animals. Structurally

related compounds include metronidazole, tinidazole, nimorazole, ronidazole,

ipronidazole, ornidazole and benznidazole.

In Australia, dimetridazole is one of two 5-nitroimidazoles registered for use in

veterinary medicine. There are currently six registered products. Two products are pure

dimetridazole powder (water insoluble), two products are water-soluble powders and

the remaining two are premixed feed supplements. A table of registered products is at

Appendix B.

from this website: http://www.apvma.gov.au/products/review/docs/dimetridazole_final_report.pdf

[Helen 8,511]

anyhow, it's 5am here and i have to get to bed..

i will make the shout out here and in the mod forum to see if anyone can recommend anything. it isn't impossible to get treatment, we've had members from his parts of the world before and they've been able to obtain meds.. either by Vets or human Doctors.. anything antibiotic safe for fish that can be prescribed to humans, we can make medicated gel food from.

i still want to know, how is the medicine Octozin administered?

[Helen 8,511]

now, wrtscotland, yes, both Octozin and Epsom can be used together. qt needs to be heated to 80F approx 30C.

lets not worry about the ammonia at the moment because you're going to be doing daily waterchanges just the same. this will keep the ammonia levels down and the other params in check.

can you get prime? the product is called Seachem Prime, here is information on the product from the manufacturers themselves, have a read of it to see how benifitial it is for your fish. we here cannot recommend it enough. it does replace your current water conditioner/dechlorinator. it's ideal for situations like this where the qt is not cycled and ammonia is at risk of being present even with daily water changes. http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/Prime.html

i'm off to bed now.. will check back in a few hours. i expect by then that a decision will be reached with respect to the use of Octozin or something more suitable.

[ninzah 377]

anyhow, it's 5am here and i have to get to bed..

i will make the shout out here and in the mod forum to see if anyone can recommend anything. it isn't impossible to get treatment, we've had members from his parts of the world before and they've been able to obtain meds.. either by Vets or human Doctors.. anything antibiotic safe for fish that can be prescribed to humans, we can make medicated gel food from.

i still want to know, how is the medicine Octozin administered?

A vet can prescribe but it'll be expensive. I doubt very much that a doctor can be convinced into writing a prescription unless they know one as a friend or relative.

Octozin seems to be tablets to be dissolved into the tank.

[Helen 8,511]

anyhow, it's 5am here and i have to get to bed..

i will make the shout out here and in the mod forum to see if anyone can recommend anything. it isn't impossible to get treatment, we've had members from his parts of the world before and they've been able to obtain meds.. either by Vets or human Doctors.. anything antibiotic safe for fish that can be prescribed to humans, we can make medicated gel food from.

i still want to know, how is the medicine Octozin administered?

A vet can prescribe but it'll be expensive. I doubt very much that a doctor can be convinced into writing a prescription unless they know one as a friend or relative.

Octozin seems to be tablets to be dissolved into the tank.

the information i posted shows that Octozin is used for treating livestock for infections in Australia. if that's the case, it has antibiotic in it as that's the only way to fight infection. if it's sold as fish medicine, then i am inclined to believe that it's quite possible it's guns are loaded and it's ready to fight.

i would like to know what the instructions to treat printed on the package states.

as it is used to treat livestock, the drug must be able to be fed. when you say that the tablets are dissolved in water, do you mean like asprin? or do they need to be crushed to a fine powder, dissolved and then added to the water?

[Helen 8,511]

can anyone answer my previous questions re Octozin? time is not our best friend where symptoms of dropsy are present. this means that the bacteria has a firm hold on the fish. reality is, without treatment, the fish will die. if there is any chance this medicine can be administered orally by making gelfood, the OP needs to begin making it now.

wrtscotland, get that qt running and begin epsom treatment asap. 1/4 teaspoon per 10US gallons of water. ensure the qt temperature initially meets that of your main tank, also ensure that the PH levels are matched. the moment your sick fish enters the qt irrespective of no antibiotics, be prepared to do daily water changes. you need to replace the epsom salt with every waterchange. ie, if you do a 50% waterchange, you need to replace 50% of the epsom salt dose as well lets try to relieve the fluid retention whilst we work out the antibiotics.

Edited March 18, 2012 by stakos

[ninzah 377]

Not sure what the packet says, I don't have one and can't find exact instructions online.

Dimetridazole is a nitroimidazole class drug, used for treating protozoan infections.

Metronidazole is stated to be for bacterial AND protozoan infections so I'm assuming there is a decent difference. I wasn't so great at chemistry/science sadly, I was a language student.

[wrtscotland 0]

Just finished carrying out more water changes.

Quarantine tank is up and running but I will need to get a heater onto it if it has to be kept at 30 degrees C (i have one unused in its box).

The dose instructions on the octozin bottle are 1 tablet treats 22.5L (5 imperial Gallons) and treat for 3 days. Tank capacity to be calculated to determine amount of tablets required.

Dissolve in a small amout of aquarium water then pour into aquarium.

[bagh 199]

Wishing your fish all the best for a speedy recovery. You can take a look at this thread.

http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/forum/index.php?/topic/97766-my-favourite-oranda-damien-is-battling-with-dropsy-please-help/

[wrtscotland 0]

can anyone answer my previous questions re Octozin? time is not our best friend where symptoms of dropsy are present. this means that the bacteria has a firm hold on the fish. reality is, without treatment, the fish will die. if there is any chance this medicine can be administered orally by making gelfood, the OP needs to begin making it now.

wrtscotland, get that qt running and begin epsom treatment asap. 1/4 teaspoon per 10US gallons of water. ensure the qt temperature initially meets that of your main tank, also ensure that the PH levels are matched. the moment your sick fish enters the qt irrespective of no antibiotics, be prepared to do daily water changes. you need to replace the epsom salt with every waterchange. ie, if you do a 50% waterchange, you need to replace 50% of the epsom salt dose as well lets try to relieve the fluid retention whilst we work out the antibiotics.

Both affected fish have been placed into the quarantine tank. This tank is the same temp as the main tank and is PH matched.

The first dose of salt have been disolved in the tank water (using a plastic cup) and added to the tank as its only 30L it is less than 10 US Gallons so I added less than the 1/4 teaspoon.

How many days should I carry out this treatment?

edit - Meant to add I am able to buy prime and have ordered some.

Edited March 18, 2012 by wrtscotland

[Helen 8,511]

with the epsom, you can only treat for 8 consecutive days. after day 3 or 4, the swelling should have come down considerably. for the 38 liters, i use 1/4 teaspoon epsom dissolved. it really isn't a lot of product at all,. but it does so much.

i read the information i posted some more last night whilst i was waiting for replies to your thread. i am not convinced that the soluble version of the meds can be used to feed orally. ideally, as the bacteria is most likely coming from within the fish, we will need to feed the antibiotic. however, you should still be able to use that to clean up the watert until we get something more.

now, how likely is it that we can get something more? do you have a doctor that is friendly enough to prescribe you Flagyl? even if it is just 4 tablets? we can make a decent amount of gelfood with 4 tablets of Metronidazole..

keep me updated.

[wrtscotland 0]

with the epsom, you can only treat for 8 consecutive days. after day 3 or 4, the swelling should have come down considerably. for the 38 liters, i use 1/4 teaspoon epsom dissolved. it really isn't a lot of product at all,. but it does so much.

i read the information i posted some more last night whilst i was waiting for replies to your thread. i am not convinced that the soluble version of the meds can be used to feed orally. ideally, as the bacteria is most likely coming from within the fish, we will need to feed the antibiotic. however, you should still be able to use that to clean up the watert until we get something more.

now, how likely is it that we can get something more? do you have a doctor that is friendly enough to prescribe you Flagyl? even if it is just 4 tablets? we can make a decent amount of gelfood with 4 tablets of Metronidazole..

keep me updated.

Unfortunately no I do not know any doctors that I could get the Flagyl from.

Will carry out the salt treatment for the next 3 days and post back with updates on the status of the fish.

[claire_uk 15]

It would be very hard to get a prescription from a doctor or vet here for meds, unless you knew them personally. There is an option of contacting a exotic animals vet and seeing if they could help, but they may want to see the fish first and it could turn very expensive very quickly, they are a lot stricter on meds here.

Would it be best to start the Octozin treatment now along side the Epsom Salt? Making sure to check water params and change water as needed, adding back meds?

[wrtscotland 0]

Here are some pictures taken today of the fish in the quarantine tank.

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i92/wrtscotland/Fish/IMG_2873.jpg

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i92/wrtscotland/Fish/IMG_2874.jpg

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i92/wrtscotland/Fish/IMG_2880.jpg

They were the best I could manage to get.

Sadly my 3rd fish in the main tank died today. Got home from work and found it under a plant. After moving the plant there was no life in the fish. This fish had shown no signs of any illness but today had a bloated stomach area and lifted scales. The eyes were also a bit bulgy (pop eye?).

Unfortunately I never though to take any pictures before disposing of the fish to show what symptoms it had.

[claire_uk 15]

ok, this needs treatment and fast, they are very much dropsied. What are the water params of the tank, both QT and main as now they can be treated in either.

[wrtscotland 0]

I tested the main tank perameters after finding the dead fish.

PH - 7.4

Ammonia - 0.5ppm

Nitrite - 0ppm

NitrAte - 20 - 40ppm

The quarantine tank I havent tested today yet but have been doing 50% water changes since starting the epsom salt treatments.

18/3 started epsom salts

19/3 50% water change and retreat new water with epsom salt.

Today I have still to do the water change and epsom salt treatment.

Should I teast the water parameters in the quarantine tank prior to water change or do it 1 hour after changing?

[claire_uk 15]

Test before so we know where we are at. I think the Octozin treatment needs to be started ASAP, waiting any longer will mean less chance of survival, so providing the water is good in the QT I would use it, at this point time is crucial. Goldies are strong fish though.

[Helen 8,511]

please begin the treatment.. we have nothing better to treat with and your fish are really ill.

[wrtscotland 0]

Tested the quarantine tank prior to 50% water change, with the following test results.

PH - 7.4

Ammonia - 0.25

Nitrite - 0ppm

NitrAte - 5.0ppm

Should I add the Octozin treatments now or wait a bit longer?

Stakos - will start the treatment (posted this just as you posted).

Edited March 20, 2012 by wrtscotland

[Helen 8,511]

good. your fish really need it.

[claire_uk 15]

That ammonia should have dropped after your water change too so adding the meds will be fine, and your fish need the meds. I havent used Octozin before, is it a 5 day treatment, or one you add each day? You will still need to test your water.

[wrtscotland 0]

That ammonia should have dropped after your water change too so adding the meds will be fine, and your fish need the meds. I havent used Octozin before, is it a 5 day treatment, or one you add each day? You will still need to test your water.

Its one you add each day for 3 days.

[Helen 8,511]

very good. then you will do a 70% water change each day before you add the new medicine. this will keep the water params in check.