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Hikari VS Aqeon Golfish Food

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Thanks SOTM! ;) I will order some medi gold next week when the fish arrive. Sigh, I spend more money on goldfish stuff then I do my own girlfriend. hehe

get both the medi gold and the metro meds :thumb:

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Thanks SOTM! ;) I will order some medi gold next week when the fish arrive. Sigh, I spend more money on goldfish stuff then I do my own girlfriend. hehe

LOL. If you are only getting 1 medicated food from GC, get the Metro-Meds instead :)

Edit: But do as tithra says and get both :D

Edited by dnalex

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Thank you guys, I just bought these meds to have on hand for just "in case" . Hopefully I won't ever need them.

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I feed hikari product exclusively... I'm very happy with their products.

Best fishes

David

Www....................com

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I feed hikari product exclusively... I'm very happy with their products.

Care to comment on the MSG as an ingredient, David?

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I'm going to get mauled for this, lol but....According to yale.org http://www.yalescien...sg-bad-for-you/, and mayo clinic http://www.mayoclini...utamate/AN01251, msg is harmless. My micro professor/old boss agrees with this too. (In humans of course). There will always be a small percentage of any population that will be sensitive to almost any given substance.

Edited by MexiMike83

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I'm going to get mauled for this, lol but....According to yale.org http://www.yalescien...sg-bad-for-you/, and mayo clinic http://www.mayoclini...utamate/AN01251, msg is harmless. My micro professor/old boss agrees with this too. (In humans of course).

LOL. No one is going to maul you for it, but here is the last paragraph from the Mayo website:

However, researchers have found no definitive evidence of a link between MSG and these symptoms. Researchers acknowledge, though, that a small percentage of people may have short-term reactions to MSG. Symptoms are usually mild and don't require treatment. The only way to prevent a reaction is to avoid foods containing MSG.

I took the liberty to bold the part I wanted to discuss. I happen to be one of those people who have short-term reactions to MSG. For me, it's like someone had slipped me a sleeping pill, and this happens about 30 minutes after I've ingested something containing MSG. In any case, I got really interested when scientific writings get ambiguous; there is acknowledgment up above that says that a small percentage of people MAY be affected, but it didn't specify. Is is 0.005%? 5%? 10%? What's considered a small percentage?

So, I decided to just do a little bit of digging to see what I could find on Pubmed, the database of research articles used by all in the biological research. Just from a cursory look at abstracts, here are just a few I picked out at random.

- Long term MSG effects on ovaries and spermatogenesis in mice

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22364086

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21446362

- MSG as an inducer of oxidative stress (important for initiation of diseases such as atherosclerosis)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22346139

- MSG as a possible aggravating factor for psoriasis

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22281896

- MSG can induce diabetes in mice, and can lead to colon cancer development

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22223845

- Neurotoxic effects of MSG in mice

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22143495

- Hepatotoxic effects of MSG in mice

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21991693

That's just a cursory (5 minute look) into things.

My point is simply this: there is quite a bit of research looking into the MSG, and the results at least show that the substance doesn't appear to be as harmless as some would like to believe. I don't know how dangerous it is in humans, but at least for me, it's a huge problem.

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I'm going to get mauled for this, lol but....According to yale.org http://www.yalescien...sg-bad-for-you/, and mayo clinic http://www.mayoclini...utamate/AN01251, msg is harmless. My micro professor/old boss agrees with this too. (In humans of course).

LOL. No one is going to maul you for it, but here is the last paragraph from the Mayo website:

However, researchers have found no definitive evidence of a link between MSG and these symptoms. Researchers acknowledge, though, that a small percentage of people may have short-term reactions to MSG. Symptoms are usually mild and don't require treatment. The only way to prevent a reaction is to avoid foods containing MSG.

I took the liberty to bold the part I wanted to discuss. I happen to be one of those people who have short-term reactions to MSG. For me, it's like someone had slipped me a sleeping pill, and this happens about 30 minutes after I've ingested something containing MSG. In any case, I got really interested when scientific writings get ambiguous; there is acknowledgment up above that says that a small percentage of people MAY be affected, but it didn't specify. Is is 0.005%? 5%? 10%? What's considered a small percentage?

So, I decided to just do a little bit of digging to see what I could find on Pubmed, the database of research articles used by all in the biological research. Just from a cursory look at abstracts, here are just a few I picked out at random.

- Long term MSG effects on ovaries and spermatogenesis in mice

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22364086

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21446362

- MSG as an inducer of oxidative stress (important for initiation of diseases such as atherosclerosis)

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22346139

- MSG as a possible aggravating factor for psoriasis

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22281896

- MSG can induce diabetes in mice, and can lead to colon cancer development

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22223845

- Neurotoxic effects of MSG in mice

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/22143495

- Hepatotoxic effects of MSG in mice

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21991693

That's just a cursory (5 minute look) into things.

My point is simply this: there is quite a bit of research looking into the MSG, and the results at least show that the substance doesn't appear to be as harmless as some would like to believe. I don't know how dangerous it is in humans, but at least for me, it's a huge problem.

Hence the some people will be sensitive to it. I read somewhere less than 1% of the population. I didn't read all of the sites that you posted, I did notice in the first one that the sample size was 8? Hardly a good sample size. And science does not always work across species. Msg is a salt. I would also point out that too much of anything is bad for you.

This comes from my old boss (I tutored his class) he said, if I were to teach a public health class my topics would be: why you shouldn't eat meat, why you shouldn't eat vegetables, why you shouldn't drink water and why breathing potentially isn't a good idea either. lol. As far as foods go, most research out there suggests we should be a lot more vegetarian than we (Americans, I can't speak for other cultures) are.

Edited by MexiMike83

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Hence the some people will be sensitive to it. I read somewhere less than 1% of the population.

Let's put that number in perspective. Current world population estimate = 6,840,507,003

One percent of that number = 68.4 million people

Since you say less than 1%, we'll be nice and round down = 50 million

50 million people > the population of many European countries. It's bigger than the entire country of Spain, for example. It's also more than twice the population of Australia, and about 1/6 the population of the United States.

Not a small number by any stretch of the imagination.

Lastly, just as a final note of caution: science sometimes takes a while to prove the linkage to something. It doesn't mean there is no conclusive linkage.

Mike, please don't think that I am attacking you. I am not. I find all of this very interesting, and welcome civil discourse on a this topic.

Edited by dnalex

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I edited my post before I read yours lol. There are people are deathly allergic to peanuts, that doesn't make peanuts bad for everyone. 1.2 million people die every year from car accidents - that doesn't mean I'm going to stop driving ;)

In one study: http://www.ajcn.org/.../90/3/850S.full says "gastroduodenal motor activity and reduce feeding intolerance in premature infants."

I would also point out though, that science in the purest of science does not prove anything. It exists to disprove things. So I guess you need to consider the sources, the sample size, and draw your own conclusions.

This one has some sources: http://www.rd411.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1175:monosodium-glutamate-msg-fact-sheet&catid=100:miscellaneous-topics&Itemid=394

Edited by MexiMike83

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I edited my post before I read yours lol. There are people are deathly allergic to peanuts, it doesn't make peanuts bad for you. 1.2 million people die every year from car accidents - that doesn't mean I'm going to stop driving ;)

In one study: http://www.ajcn.org/content/90/3/850S.full says "gastroduodenal motor activity and reduce feeding intolerance in premature infants."

I'm not quite sure I follow your logic. I didn't at any point say to ban MSG or to tell you not to eat it. Please, by all means have all the MSG in the world, if it pleases you. You are even welcome to my share of it. :)

The very simple point I was making was that MSG can adversely affect a large number of people. It is not a harmless substance as some would like to suggest.

Having said that, it is up to you whether you want to eat it or not. We all choose our favorite poisons, don't we?

Edit: as for sample sizes, I don't see where it says sample size is 8. However, keep in mind that they said groups of however many mice were tested in any one single experiment. They most certainly would have to repeat these experiments ad nauseum by the time they are done. Moreover, with genetically close populations, you are able to work with smaller sample sizes. We are not talking Phase 3 clinical trials here, where many thousands of genetically varied humans are required.

As for science existing to disprove something...I guess you are not a researcher. Ask any researcher how easy it is to prove a negative and how often they actually manage to accomplish that goal. Science does not exist solely to disprove something. That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Where did you ever get the idea that science exist to disprove things? That is not the idea at all lol.

Did you look at the sources provided in that article? They are not scientific sources, other than the MayoClinic one, which does not provide any references in the end.

Edited by dnalex

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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22364086: "

For our study eight female newborns of Swiss Albino mice were injected subcutaneously with MSG (2mg / gm of body wt. in a dilution 40 mg of per ml. of distilled water)" I don't necessarily agree with the FDA all the time, but I trust the world health organization. which was sited in the last link above.

The points I was making was that (we are probably talking about the same thing just worded differently), are these:

1) with almost any given substance you will find a percentage of the population sensitive to it, that doesn't necessarily make it bad. Like my peanut example.

2) Sample size is important to draw any real conclusions.

3) MSG is a salt

4) I'm not trying to defend MSG in anyway, I'm always a skeptic, which makes me a good scientist in my opinion.

I also noticed that from looking at a list of "anecdotal adverse effects" from

http://www.rd411.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1175:monosodium-glutamate-msg-fact-sheet&catid=100:miscellaneous-topics&Itemid=394

that the majority of these are subjective (see below). I wonder how many of these complaints were actually related to the MSG and not to something else or what the reaction would be to a placebo.

  • Headache
  • Flushing
  • Sweating
  • Facial pressure or tightness
  • Numbness, tingling or burning in face, neck and other areas
  • Rapid, fluttering heartbeats (heart palpitations)
  • Chest pain
  • Nausea
  • Weakness

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In science you form and test a hypothesis. In that test you are trying to disprove your hypothesis. Just because one experiment does not make you throw out your hypothesis, does not make it true. Another test with better technology, new data etc. could throw out the hypothesis. A theory is just a hypothesis that has withstood vigorous testing. So the better way to look at it is from this data we believe so far that such and such is true, but it is possible that it won't be true tomorrow. That's what I mean when I say science doesn't prove anything.

If anything, more testing needs to be done in my opinion.

Here's your scholar article http://web.ebscohost.com.hal.weber.edu:2200/ehost/pdfviewer/pdfviewer?sid=93f9b7ff-15fe-401d-9aa0-feab3d14f5e4%40sessionmgr12&vid=10&hid=14 hopefully the link will work for you. If not, try looking up:

Monosodium glutamate ‘allergy’: menace or myth?

A. N. Williams and K. M. Woessner

Division of Allergy, Asthma, and Immunology, Scripps Clinic, San Diego, CA, USA

Another one: http://web.ebscohost.com.hal.weber.edu:2200/ehost/pdfviewer/pdfviewer?sid=93f9b7ff-15fe-401d-9aa0-feab3d14f5e4%40sessionmgr12&vid=13&hid=14

And another: http://web.ebscohost.com.hal.weber.edu:2200/ehost/pdfviewer/pdfviewer?sid=93f9b7ff-15fe-401d-9aa0-feab3d14f5e4%40sessionmgr12&vid=13&hid=14

"MSG has a widespread reputation for eliciting a variety of

symptoms, ranging from headache to dry mouth to flushing. Since the first

report of the so-called Chinese restaurant syndrome 40 years ago, clinical trials

have failed to identify a consistent relationship between the consumption of

MSG and the constellation of symptoms that comprise the syndrome. Furthermore,

MSG has been described as a trigger for asthma and migraine headache

exacerbations, but there are no consistent data to support this relationship.

Although there have been reports of an MSG-sensitive subset of the population,

this has not been demonstrated in placebo-controlled trials."

Going to bed. I'm curious to learn the other side of the coin tomorrow. Cheerio.

Edited by MexiMike83

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The points I was making was that (we are probably talking about the same thing just worded differently), are these:

1) with almost any given substance you will find a percentage of the population sensitive to it, that doesn't necessarily make it bad. Like my peanut example.

It is bad, to the affected population, and when that population is 60-something million people, at the very least, it's not a small problem. To go with your example, I love peanuts. I eat peanuts all the time. Yum. To my cousin and my nephew, who both are allergic, peanuts are the worst things in the world you can give to them. It will kill them if they eat enough of it. That's pretty bad to me. Don't you think?

2) Sample size is important to draw any real conclusions.

Of course. For genetically inbred populations, such as mice that are developed and often used in studies, they are genetically identical, and allows for much smaller numbers of to be used. In any case, these findings are supposed to just give you proof of principle, demonstrating that toxicities can be readily observed. These should be taken as clues for studies in humans.

3) MSG is a salt

Yes, it is. Your point? All of your antibiotics that you take are likely in the form of hydrochloride salts. A salt is a the ionic result of a reaction between a base and an acid. Where are you going with this?

4) I'm not trying to defend MSG in anyway, I'm always a skeptic, which makes me a good scientist in my opinion.

I'm glad you are not trying to defend MSG, just as I am not trying to put it down. At issue here is one of raising awareness...for that population of people who may be experiencing symptoms and not knowing where the heck it's coming from. It's important that people know that MSG, which is increasing in prevalence in a lot of our foodstuff, can cause problems, and it's something that they can test to see if MSG is the culprit for the health issues. That's it. If you are one of those people who are unaffected by MSG or like the taste it brings to your food, then please, eat more and enjoy

:)

I also noticed that from looking at a list of "anecdotal adverse effects" from

http://www.rd411.com...pics&Itemid=394

that the majority of these are subjective (see below). I wonder how many of these complaints were actually related to the MSG and not to something else or what the reaction would be to a placebo.

  • Headache
  • Flushing
  • Sweating
  • Facial pressure or tightness
  • Numbness, tingling or burning in face, neck and other areas
  • Rapid, fluttering heartbeats (heart palpitations)
  • Chest pain
  • Nausea
  • Weakness

These symptoms are not trivial :(

In science you form and test a hypothesis. In that test you are trying to disprove your hypothesis. Just because one experiment does not make you throw out your hypothesis, does not make it true. Another test with better technology, new data etc. could throw out the hypothesis. A theory is just a hypothesis that has withstood vigorous testing. So the better way to look at it is from this data we believe so far that such and such is true, but it is possible that it won't be true tomorrow. That's what I mean when I say science doesn't prove anything.

Yes, and MSG has not received enough scientific attention to warrant the moniker of harmless. In fact, there is enough to say that more needs to be looked into.

If anything, more testing needs to be done in my opinion.

Well, if you had stated this opinion in the various posts up above, I would have simply agreed and ended it there. :)

Edited by dnalex

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I was afraid the links wouldn't work, I can email them if anyone is interested.

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"MSG has a widespread reputation for eliciting a variety of

symptoms, ranging from headache to dry mouth to flushing. Since the first

report of the so-called Chinese restaurant syndrome 40 years ago, clinical trials

have failed to identify a consistent relationship between the consumption of

MSG and the constellation of symptoms that comprise the syndrome.

What they are saying here is that they cannot link everyone who reacts to MSG to the same set of symptoms. They didn't say that clinical trials showed that MSG didn't cause adverse effects; there just isn't a nice clean set of uniform effects that they can study.

Furthermore,MSG has been described as a trigger for asthma and migraine headache

exacerbations, but there are no consistent data to support this relationship.

Again, the problem here is that MSG-effects differ from person A to person B to person C. This can happen when the inducer doesn't elicit the same set of responses in everyone. It makes for tough scientific dissection, and may be the reason why there's not much progress.

Although there have been reports of an MSG-sensitive subset of the population,

this has not been demonstrated in placebo-controlled trials."

This is not entirely true. There was at least one trial done, and it showed a sensitivity to MSG and defined the threshold of sensitivity. See below.

_________________________________________

The monosodium glutamate symptom complex: assessment in a double-blind, placebo-controlled, randomized study.

Yang WH, Drouin MA, Herbert M, Mao Y, Karsh J.

Source

Department of Medicine, University of Ottawa, Ontario, Canada.

Abstract

BACKGROUND:

Considerable debate swirls about the validity of symptoms described by many people after ingestion of monosodium glutamate (MSG), and the question has remained unresolved largely because of a paucity of well-designed challenge studies.

METHODS:

We conducted oral challenge studies in self-identified MSG-sensitive subjects to determine whether they had a statistically significant difference in the incidence of their specific symptoms after ingestion of MSG compared with placebo. First, 5 gm MSG or placebo was administered in random sequence in a double-blind fashion. Subjects who reacted only to a single test agent then underwent rechallenge in random sequence in a double-blind fashion with placebo and 1.25, 2.5, and 5 gm MSG. A positive response to challenge was defined as the reproduction of > of 2 of the specific symptoms in a subject ascertained on prechallenge interview.

RESULTS:

Sixty-one subjects entered the study. On initial challenge, 18 (29.5%) responded to neither MSG nor placebo, 6 (9.8%) to both, 15 (24.6%) to placebo, and 22 (36.1%) to MSG (p = 0.324). Total and average severity of symptoms after ingestion of MSG (374 and 80) were greater than respective values after placebo ingestion (232 and 56; p = 0.026 and 0.018, respectively). Rechallenge revealed an apparent threshold dose for reactivity of 2.5 gm MSG. Headache (p < 0.023), muscle tightness (p < 0.004), numbness/tingling (p < 0.007), general weakness (p < 0.040), and flushing (p < 0.016) occurred more frequently after MSG than placebo ingestion.

CONCLUSIONS:

Oral challenge with MSG reproduced symptoms in alleged sensitive persons. The mechanism of the reaction remains unknown, but symptom characteristics do not support an IgE-mediated mechanism. According to Food and Drug Administration recommendations, the symptoms, originally called the Chinese restaurant syndrome, are better referred to as the MSG symptom complex.

_____________________________________

Edited by dnalex

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The points I was making was that (we are probably talking about the same thing just worded differently), are these:

1) with almost any given substance you will find a percentage of the population sensitive to it, that doesn't necessarily make it bad. Like my peanut example.

It is bad, to the affected population, and when that population is 60-something million people, at the very least, it's not a small problem. To go with your example, I love peanuts. I eat peanuts all the time. Yum. To my cousin and my nephew, who both are allergic, peanuts are the worst things in the world you can give to them. It will kill them if they eat enough of it. That's pretty bad to me. Don't you think?

Right. But it doesn't mean that peanuts are bad for all of humanity.

2) Sample size is important to draw any real conclusions.

Of course. For genetically inbred populations, such as mice that are developed and often used in studies, they are genetically identical, and allows for much smaller numbers of to be used. In any case, these findings are supposed to just give you proof of principle, demonstrating that toxicities can be readily observed. These should be taken as clues for studies in humans.

Yes I understand this. But I don't know if I necessarily agree with the logic for the sake of this conversation, it was essentially genetic diversity, who is sensitive and who isn't. Was it not? All that proves is that the same genes tested the same. That's like me trying out for the NBA 100 times and not making it in any of them because I suck at basketball, and on the 101st time expect a different result.

3) MSG is a salt

Yes, it is. Your point? All of your antibiotics that you take are likely in the form of hydrochloride salts. A salt is a the ionic result of a reaction between a base and an acid. Where are you going with this?

That salt is relatively harmless in small doses. But again, people can be allergic to almost anything.

4) I'm not trying to defend MSG in anyway, I'm always a skeptic, which makes me a good scientist in my opinion.

I'm glad you are not trying to defend MSG, just as I am not trying to put it down. At issue here is one of raising awareness...for that population of people who may be experiencing symptoms and not knowing where the heck it's coming from. It's important that people know that MSG, which is increasing in prevalence in a lot of our foodstuff, can cause problems, and it's something that they can test to see if MSG is the culprit for the health issues. That's it. If you are one of those people who are unaffected by MSG or like the taste it brings to your food, then please, eat more and enjoy

:)

I also noticed that from looking at a list of "anecdotal adverse effects" from

http://www.rd411.com...pics&Itemid=394

that the majority of these are subjective (see below). I wonder how many of these complaints were actually related to the MSG and not to something else or what the reaction would be to a placebo.

  • Headache
  • Flushing
  • Sweating
  • Facial pressure or tightness
  • Numbness, tingling or burning in face, neck and other areas
  • Rapid, fluttering heartbeats (heart palpitations)
  • Chest pain
  • Nausea
  • Weakness

These symptoms are not trivial :(

Never said they were. But they could be associated with other things other than MSG.

In science you form and test a hypothesis. In that test you are trying to disprove your hypothesis. Just because one experiment does not make you throw out your hypothesis, does not make it true. Another test with better technology, new data etc. could throw out the hypothesis. A theory is just a hypothesis that has withstood vigorous testing. So the better way to look at it is from this data we believe so far that such and such is true, but it is possible that it won't be true tomorrow. That's what I mean when I say science doesn't prove anything.

Yes, and MSG has not received enough scientific attention to warrant the moniker of harmless. In fact, there is enough to say that more needs to be looked into

It would be impossible to make any food completely safe for everyone.

If anything, more testing needs to be done in my opinion.

Well, if you had stated this opinion in the various posts up above, I would have simply agreed and ended it there. :)

No you just wanted to argue with me. lol ;)

I was merely pointing out that people shouldn't jump on the anti-msg-wagon right away. And from the scholar articles I just read, I will stay off of it for now.

Edit: it's 5am and I'm debating salt. I need to go to bed lol.

Edited by MexiMike83

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The points I was making was that (we are probably talking about the same thing just worded differently), are these:

1) with almost any given substance you will find a percentage of the population sensitive to it, that doesn't necessarily make it bad. Like my peanut example.

It is bad, to the affected population, and when that population is 60-something million people, at the very least, it's not a small problem. To go with your example, I love peanuts. I eat peanuts all the time. Yum. To my cousin and my nephew, who both are allergic, peanuts are the worst things in the world you can give to them. It will kill them if they eat enough of it. That's pretty bad to me. Don't you think?

Right. But it doesn't mean that peanuts are bad for all of humanity.

2) Sample size is important to draw any real conclusions.

Of course. For genetically inbred populations, such as mice that are developed and often used in studies, they are genetically identical, and allows for much smaller numbers of to be used. In any case, these findings are supposed to just give you proof of principle, demonstrating that toxicities can be readily observed. These should be taken as clues for studies in humans.

Yes I understand this. But I don't know if I necessarily agree with the logic for the sake of this conversation, it was essentially genetic diversity, who is sensitive and who isn't. Was it not? All that proves is that the same genes tested the same. That's like me trying out for the NBA 100 times and not making it in any of them because I suck at basketball.

3) MSG is a salt

Yes, it is. Your point? All of your antibiotics that you take are likely in the form of hydrochloride salts. A salt is a the ionic result of a reaction between a base and an acid. Where are you going with this?

4) I'm not trying to defend MSG in anyway, I'm always a skeptic, which makes me a good scientist in my opinion.

I'm glad you are not trying to defend MSG, just as I am not trying to put it down. At issue here is one of raising awareness...for that population of people who may be experiencing symptoms and not knowing where the heck it's coming from. It's important that people know that MSG, which is increasing in prevalence in a lot of our foodstuff, can cause problems, and it's something that they can test to see if MSG is the culprit for the health issues. That's it. If you are one of those people who are unaffected by MSG or like the taste it brings to your food, then please, eat more and enjoy

I also noticed that from looking at a list of "anecdotal adverse effects" from

http://www.rd411.com...pics&Itemid=394

that the majority of these are subjective (see below). I wonder how many of these complaints were actually related to the MSG and not to something else or what the reaction would be to a placebo.

  • Headache
  • Flushing
  • Sweating
  • Facial pressure or tightness
  • Numbness, tingling or burning in face, neck and other areas
  • Rapid, fluttering heartbeats (heart palpitations)
  • Chest pain
  • Nausea
  • Weakness

These symptoms are not trivial

I never said they were. But the food not the msg could explain symptoms like sweating, nausea, and a few others.

In science you form and test a hypothesis. In that test you are trying to disprove your hypothesis. Just because one experiment does not make you throw out your hypothesis, does not make it true. Another test with better technology, new data etc. could throw out the hypothesis. A theory is just a hypothesis that has withstood vigorous testing. So the better way to look at it is from this data we believe so far that such and such is true, but it is possible that it won't be true tomorrow. That's what I mean when I say science doesn't prove anything.

Yes, and MSG has not received enough scientific attention to warrant the moniker of harmless. In fact, there is enough to say that more needs to be looked into

It would be impossible to make any food completely safe for everyone.

If anything, more testing needs to be done in my opinion.

Well, if you had stated this opinion in the various posts up above, I would have simply agreed and ended it there.

I was merely pointing out that people shouldn't jump on the anti-msg-wagon right away. And from the scholar articles I just read, I will stay off of it for now.

Personally, I am not an anti-MSG person. However, I have had, and continue to have, adverse reactions after eating food containing MSG. Cutting it out of my food has eliminated those problems. Therefore, I continue to consciously choose foods that do not contain MSG.

Peter, my apologies for hijacking your thread. Since it was a discussion of one of the alleged questionable ingredients in the Hikari line, I figured it would be interesting to talk about it more in-depth :)

Edited by dnalex

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I think I'll feed my fish high fructose corn syrup and see what happens....

I hope you saw the humor in that ;) lol

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I think I'll feed my fish high fructose corn syrup and see what happens....

I hope you saw the humor in that lol

Make sure you have a big enough sample size. There's your excuse to have lots of fish ;)

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I think I'll feed my fish high fructose corn syrup and see what happens....

I hope you saw the humor in that lol

Make sure you have a big enough sample size. There's your excuse to have lots of fish ;)

Now, if I could just get a grant so I could have the budget.... :lol:

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What's a budget?

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The points I was making was that (we are probably talking about the same thing just worded differently), are these:

1) with almost any given substance you will find a percentage of the population sensitive to it, that doesn't necessarily make it bad. Like my peanut example.

It is bad, to the affected population, and when that population is 60-something million people, at the very least, it's not a small problem. To go with your example, I love peanuts. I eat peanuts all the time. Yum. To my cousin and my nephew, who both are allergic, peanuts are the worst things in the world you can give to them. It will kill them if they eat enough of it. That's pretty bad to me. Don't you think?

Right. But it doesn't mean that peanuts are bad for all of humanity.

2) Sample size is important to draw any real conclusions.

Of course. For genetically inbred populations, such as mice that are developed and often used in studies, they are genetically identical, and allows for much smaller numbers of to be used. In any case, these findings are supposed to just give you proof of principle, demonstrating that toxicities can be readily observed. These should be taken as clues for studies in humans.

Yes I understand this. But I don't know if I necessarily agree with the logic for the sake of this conversation, it was essentially genetic diversity, who is sensitive and who isn't. Was it not? All that proves is that the same genes tested the same. That's like me trying out for the NBA 100 times and not making it in any of them because I suck at basketball.

3) MSG is a salt

Yes, it is. Your point? All of your antibiotics that you take are likely in the form of hydrochloride salts. A salt is a the ionic result of a reaction between a base and an acid. Where are you going with this?

4) I'm not trying to defend MSG in anyway, I'm always a skeptic, which makes me a good scientist in my opinion.

I'm glad you are not trying to defend MSG, just as I am not trying to put it down. At issue here is one of raising awareness...for that population of people who may be experiencing symptoms and not knowing where the heck it's coming from. It's important that people know that MSG, which is increasing in prevalence in a lot of our foodstuff, can cause problems, and it's something that they can test to see if MSG is the culprit for the health issues. That's it. If you are one of those people who are unaffected by MSG or like the taste it brings to your food, then please, eat more and enjoy

I also noticed that from looking at a list of "anecdotal adverse effects" from

http://www.rd411.com...pics&Itemid=394

that the majority of these are subjective (see below). I wonder how many of these complaints were actually related to the MSG and not to something else or what the reaction would be to a placebo.

  • Headache
  • Flushing
  • Sweating
  • Facial pressure or tightness
  • Numbness, tingling or burning in face, neck and other areas
  • Rapid, fluttering heartbeats (heart palpitations)
  • Chest pain
  • Nausea
  • Weakness

These symptoms are not trivial

I never said they were. But the food not the msg could explain symptoms like sweating, nausea, and a few others.

In science you form and test a hypothesis. In that test you are trying to disprove your hypothesis. Just because one experiment does not make you throw out your hypothesis, does not make it true. Another test with better technology, new data etc. could throw out the hypothesis. A theory is just a hypothesis that has withstood vigorous testing. So the better way to look at it is from this data we believe so far that such and such is true, but it is possible that it won't be true tomorrow. That's what I mean when I say science doesn't prove anything.

Yes, and MSG has not received enough scientific attention to warrant the moniker of harmless. In fact, there is enough to say that more needs to be looked into

It would be impossible to make any food completely safe for everyone.

If anything, more testing needs to be done in my opinion.

Well, if you had stated this opinion in the various posts up above, I would have simply agreed and ended it there.

I was merely pointing out that people shouldn't jump on the anti-msg-wagon right away. And from the scholar articles I just read, I will stay off of it for now.

Personally, I am not an anti-MSG person. However, I have had, and continue to have, adverse reactions after eating food containing MSG. Cutting it out of my food has eliminated those problems. Therefore, I continue to consciously choose foods that do not contain MSG. Peter, my apologies for hijacking your thread. Since it was a discussion of one of the alleged questionable ingredients in the Hikari line, I figured it would be interesting to talk about it more in-depth :)

Alex,

It most certainly is not my post, I'm glad it opened up this discussion though, as soon as my coffee hits my brain I'll able to respond to some of the issues brought here.

As for you - your posts are brilliant. Well thought out and concise. You make lucid arguments and back them up with facts.

Why one might think you would make an excellent Attorney. :)

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I am personally not a fan of the color enhancing foods, after I got some staining onto the white of my white fish.

me neither

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I happen to be one of those people who have short-term reactions to MSG. For me, it's like someone had slipped me a sleeping pill, and this happens about 30 minutes after I've ingested something containing MSG.

Me too......sleepy & thirsty.........i really dislike this stuff........and its what i vet out of my shopping & takeouts etc

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