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HELP,PLEASE!


kukana d

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Very good Susan! They look much better.

Just wanted to let you know about the MMs. In order for them to work and be strong enough to wipe out ALL the bacteria you need to feed 1% of the fish's body weight. Not sure how big your fish are, around 200grams maybe? If so they each need to eat a total of 2grams of food throughout the day.

Good luck :)

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Yes,the kirin did get dipped for 3 min-is that enough? Would it be better @ 1.5 for 5 min? And no more than 3 salt dips,correct?

Yes, 3 mins is very good already (min at least 30 sec @3% concentration). I think stronger concentration shorter time is better. I seen the Thais dip their fish @5% concentration for about 30sec to strip off excessive white slime on body of large TVR, the whole fish turned white after about 10sec....scarely for the faint hearted. Yes Stop after the 3rd dip.

I do have acriflavine-it is compatible w/ .3% salt? Would Melafix be better,or different purposes?

Acriflavine is safe with up to 0.5% salt. Although I'm not a big fan of using melafix but I think you have to use it slightly different than their instructions. I don't like the daily dosing bit without changing water. So if you are planning to use it, I suggest you do a 100% w/c daily then dose accordingly. (I'm a 100% w/c dude when treating sick fish)

Don't forget you've Ich to deal with, so 0.3% salt have to stay for about 10days min. (I don't remember whether Melafix is safe together with salt).

The blue 1 is the only 1 I see actually eat-perhaps I can start feeding them in a basket to get a better idea.

I just finished dipping the Oranda @ 1.5 for 5 min,and he did fine-up and swimming around already :) Shall I do 2 more on him since he was only in the 2.5 for a few seconds yesterday? Or just give him 1 more?

That's very promising. Yes, con't with 2 more dips. You know, somethimes it's necessary to rest (1 day) them inbetween if they can't handle it and play around with the concentration of 1.5 to 2.5% (standard dip is 3% for 5min.)

I will continue with the 2x/day tub changes. How long am I going to maintain .3% salt for them?

Salt @ 0.3% for at least 10 days.

I need to sleep on the exact steps for the pond. I can certainly take out all the stuff-that's no problem. Can I possibly toss all the soft media(I have replacements-it's about time anyway..),but retain the rocks? If I can do that,I can maybe squeeze some of the pads from the 170g,or just add 1 and hopefully maintain a cycle out there?

Actually these type of pond has a very smooth surface and you can just brush and scrub with dish washer, vinegar or bleach, then just hose it off under pressure. (This is what I normally do and I don't have any problems. What you need to worry is your pumps and hoses. Don't keep those rocks, that's potential hidding for all the bugs. If those soft media is still good, just soak them in bleach for 15 mins, rinse properly and soak in hot water while you attend to other tasks.

Wouldn't a PP nuke on the pond,empty filter housing,and hosing only have to go on for about 4 hrs.? I could put the fish in the 50g for that long-then not have to worry about whether I have gotten rid of all of the bleach. I could maybe add some HP,empty,rinse with warm/hot water-then be ready to go? What do you think? But would I treat the fish while they're in the bin? With PP? How much? Most of the fish out there are pretty small-nothing like these guys. Would I then maintain .3% salt out there? I started those guys on MM today also.

Edit: Should I keep these guys on the metro 20% gel or feed them MM? MM are not very enticing for them,are they?

There are no strict one method of doing it. Yes, you can do that but you must remove everything else (pots,toys, rocks etc...) In that case, at the end of about 4 hrs you can just dump all the water in the pond and rinse everthing (inclusive the pump and it's hoses) with a garden hose. Then there is no need to use HP, a bit of PP residue will not harm your fish.

I prefer Metro 20% to gel food since Frederica said you have to feed so much. Against dropsy Metro is better. (I've never used MM, don't have it here. I just watch you guys use it and judge it's results).

Are these fish showing any signs of illness? If not, then just salt dip @ 2.0% for 5mins, also 3x since you said they are smaller. I don't think you need to place them in salt if they are not sick but if you have any suspicion then it's better to redo a QT in a smaller vessel. I don't recommend doing treatment on such a large pond. To tell you the truth I've never done any disinfection or treatment on any my pond. When fish died (even for a few days), sick or long power outages, it's business as usual. I just observe closely.

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The earlier pics really scared me, and i was very worried for you and them ...............so happy & reliefed.....that with the support &advice.....that you got on top of it........and they are looking much better.......

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I prefer Metro 20% to gel food since Frederica said you have to feed so much. Against dropsy Metro is better. (I've never used MM, don't have it here. I just watch you guys use it and judge it's results).

I have to say that I am super happy with the MMs now that I am weighing the fish before using them. As long as you feed at least 1% of the fish's body weight they really do work extremely well. DOn't forget to follow with a few months of jumpstart of gel food with probiotics.

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In the instances when I've treated my fish with metro-meds, they loved it. One percent sounds like quite a lot of food, but I've never had any problems feeding them this much. The only issue is that they poop a lot, but this is true when you feed any fish that much food.

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I suppose the starting point here should be to examine each fish(and take pis to show you guys-I trust your eyes more than I do mine at this point!!),to determine the course of action for the pond. For instance-The only way I can see for a disinfecting to be effective is if while I have the pond fish in the 50g bin,I either pp and/or give them 1 salt bath(and will just 1 knock off the parasites? I will only have time for 1 while they are in the bin-I can follow up w/ the other 2 dips after they are back in the pond.)

Lionchu,I was not talking about the rocks in the planters-I can toss that-there is a small tray of rocks in the filter-can I PP those along w/ the pond(4 hrs.) and re-use them? I will completely replace all sponged filter materials(I knew that spare set would come in handy some day!!!!!!! but I don't have spare rocks.)

Can I feed them BOTH the metro gel AND MM? I'm just trying to have a variable in case the lionhead and kirin ranchu don't have an appetite.

EDIT: Just to clarify-is acriflavine ok w/ salt AND metro in the water? I will wait to add acriflavine until I get the ok...........Thank you.

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I just fed the L/H and kirin in baskets-20% metro gel- and they ate some-this makes me feel hopeful! They had to settle down 1st,then they seemed to need to acquire a taste for it,which I had to achieve by dropping it in over their heads,in front of their mouths. Blue ate too,but I don't have to put him in a basket-he's perfectly happy to eat-he's less 'excitable' than the other 2. Here are some pics of the 2 that I took b/c the kirin has an open spot on his back,and I wanted to show you. It may be just a missing scale,I can't tell-and thought it should be documented. I did find at least 1 scale when I cleaned the tank they came out of.

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As you can see,the L/H is splotchy-even on his face,and streaks in his tail. I do not know that either 1 of these 2 ate med food before today-could not confirm:

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I am most worried about the orange dude. He is getting very pale and at the same time has quite a lot of redness. Can you try feeding him the Metro like 3-4times a day? We really need to make sure they eat it.

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Yes,for sure I can.He has been that pale for like 1.5 week now-when I noticed they were losing color. I am in the midst of up/down loading the pond fish-I think we have probs out there-some red bellies/where fins attach,and some out and out red sores. Am going to test the water out there now. I may see some ich on some tails. Get ready for A LOOOOOOOOOT of pics!!! Prob 1/2 hr or so.....Thanks for checking in:) EDIT: Is there a limit to the # of photos you can put in 1 post? Probably 60+...........

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Here are the pond fish:

1.

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2. This guy came out of the same qt as the ich fish:

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3.

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4.

This guy from that qt also:

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5.

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6.(is that ich on his tail?)

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7.

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8.

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9. Ich?

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10.

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11.

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12.

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13.

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14. Ich?

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15.

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16. Ich?

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17.

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18.

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19.

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20. This poor guy has had what I thought to be a sbd prob for weeks now. I'm wondering now if it could be bacterial.

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The current params out there are am-0,ni-0,na(and I am so ashamed of this-I've never had na this high)160-it's the darkest color on the card,so is probably even more. I would imagine some of this redness on them is related to the high na,in addition to whatever ich and bacteria. HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have to plan for the pond-I can do it tomorrow,but I can do a w/c tonight. The pond is on my smallish patio(w/ lots of plants),over some garages,so it's not as simple as just rinsing it out-I can't just dump water-I have to pump it into the tub or sink.

EDIT: Another ? here-can I use the same python for the pond as I've used for the guys that were so bad? If not,I can accommodate that,but would just as soon use the same one if it's all the same.

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I see lots of ich and red sores on almost every one of those pond fish, and the last one (black butterfly) has dropsy. Yikes! How did things get this bad so fast Susan? Best of luck with the treatment, you're getting plenty of good advice.

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What should I do? Start w/ a water change? Take it up to .3% salt-it's at .1 now. Should I even worry about disinfecting at this stage? Or just remove all the stuff from inside the pond and just treat the fish w/ salt? Then disinfect down the road? PP?

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I am in crisis mode! Doing big w change in pond-will add back .2% salt. How important is heat? Hard to heat the water out there. Would putting these pond guys into a 2.5 dip shock them? Still need to do inside dips too. Should I add water metro? I'm thinking getting the nitrates down is paramount now.

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I'm no expert but it seems to me treating the fish then returning them to the uncleaned conditions is pointless,..do you have enough tubs for all fish for treatments while you disinfect the tanks and the pond??gosh wish I could be more helpful :( I'm feeling your pain :(

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Thanks Shell. The pond is mostly empty-3/4-4/5...............I also brought the 50 g tub up-it's got a crack up top-i hope it holds-maybe don't need it yet. Took a lot of stuff out of pond.fish are separated into some groups.i thoink i'll fill the pond back up,take to .2 salt,feed more mm and go from there...

Pond now:

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sounds like a good plan :) hang in there Susan I think you caught the pond kids in time and have a good handle on how to treat now :) And please make sure you take care of yourself so you can take care of your babies :) Remember to BREATH!!! Keeping you & your finned kids in my thoughts and prayers ;)

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Yes,the kirin did get dipped for 3 min-is that enough? Would it be better @ 1.5 for 5 min? And no more than 3 salt dips,correct?

Yes, 3 mins is very good already (min at least 30 sec @3% concentration). I think stronger concentration shorter time is better. I seen the Thais dip their fish @5% concentration for about 30sec to strip off excessive white slime on body of large TVR, the whole fish turned white after about 10sec....scarely for the faint hearted. Yes Stop after the 3rd dip.

I do have acriflavine-it is compatible w/ .3% salt? Would Melafix be better,or different purposes?

Acriflavine is safe with up to 0.5% salt. Although I'm not a big fan of using melafix but I think you have to use it slightly different than their instructions. I don't like the daily dosing bit without changing water. So if you are planning to use it, I suggest you do a 100% w/c daily then dose accordingly. (I'm a 100% w/c dude when treating sick fish)

Don't forget you've Ich to deal with, so 0.3% salt have to stay for about 10days min. (I don't remember whether Melafix is safe together with salt).

The blue 1 is the only 1 I see actually eat-perhaps I can start feeding them in a basket to get a better idea.

I just finished dipping the Oranda @ 1.5 for 5 min,and he did fine-up and swimming around already :) Shall I do 2 more on him since he was only in the 2.5 for a few seconds yesterday? Or just give him 1 more?

That's very promising. Yes, con't with 2 more dips. You know, somethimes it's necessary to rest (1 day) them inbetween if they can't handle it and play around with the concentration of 1.5 to 2.5% (standard dip is 3% for 5min.)

I will continue with the 2x/day tub changes. How long am I going to maintain .3% salt for them?

Salt @ 0.3% for at least 10 days.

I need to sleep on the exact steps for the pond. I can certainly take out all the stuff-that's no problem. Can I possibly toss all the soft media(I have replacements-it's about time anyway..),but retain the rocks? If I can do that,I can maybe squeeze some of the pads from the 170g,or just add 1 and hopefully maintain a cycle out there?

Actually these type of pond has a very smooth surface and you can just brush and scrub with dish washer, vinegar or bleach, then just hose it off under pressure. (This is what I normally do and I don't have any problems. What you need to worry is your pumps and hoses. Don't keep those rocks, that's potential hidding for all the bugs. If those soft media is still good, just soak them in bleach for 15 mins, rinse properly and soak in hot water while you attend to other tasks.

Wouldn't a PP nuke on the pond,empty filter housing,and hosing only have to go on for about 4 hrs.? I could put the fish in the 50g for that long-then not have to worry about whether I have gotten rid of all of the bleach. I could maybe add some HP,empty,rinse with warm/hot water-then be ready to go? What do you think? But would I treat the fish while they're in the bin? With PP? How much? Most of the fish out there are pretty small-nothing like these guys. Would I then maintain .3% salt out there? I started those guys on MM today also.

Edit: Should I keep these guys on the metro 20% gel or feed them MM? MM are not very enticing for them,are they?

There are no strict one method of doing it. Yes, you can do that but you must remove everything else (pots,toys, rocks etc...) In that case, at the end of about 4 hrs you can just dump all the water in the pond and rinse everthing (inclusive the pump and it's hoses) with a garden hose. Then there is no need to use HP, a bit of PP residue will not harm your fish.

I prefer Metro 20% to gel food since Frederica said you have to feed so much. Against dropsy Metro is better. (I've never used MM, don't have it here. I just watch you guys use it and judge it's results).

Are these fish showing any signs of illness? If not, then just salt dip @ 2.0% for 5mins, also 3x since you said they are smaller. I don't think you need to place them in salt if they are not sick but if you have any suspicion then it's better to redo a QT in a smaller vessel. I don't recommend doing treatment on such a large pond. To tell you the truth I've never done any disinfection or treatment on any my pond. When fish died (even for a few days), sick or long power outages, it's business as usual. I just observe closely.

Susan, can you please do what Lionchu has suggested (I haven't quoted all of him but he posted a lot of valuable info)... Trying to help :) and I think this is the very best bet -- *ALL* of his advice.

I see lots of ich and red sores on almost every one of those pond fish, and the last one (black butterfly) has dropsy. Yikes! How did things get this bad so fast Susan? Best of luck with the treatment, you're getting plenty of good advice.

I am in complete agreement here, the best I can suggest is what Lionchu already went over multiple times.

I hope things improve hun

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I believe I am doing what he suggested-the very best I can,given my living circumstances. That aside,I still think I'm doing what he suggested-in perfect manner-no. As I said earlier, A pond strip down is something I need to plan-like for tomorrow.I thought I did a pretty great job today,given how manny fish I have in the pond and all of the accompanying documentation-IN ADDITION to all the water changes and salt dips I am doing o the inside fish! I am on my 2nd empty/fill of the pond in an effort to get the nitrates down and some more salt into the water. If anyone else can do what I have been doing for 10 solid days-IN A 1 BEDROOM APARTMENT-OVER GARAGES-then my hat is off to them-also. If I have panicked a bit-IT HAS BEEN VERY STRESSFUL. I have gotten amazing support and info here since Sunday-AMAZING :heart :heart :heart I went down the wrong road the week prior,but I went down that road w/ tenacity and vigor-so this is my 2nd week of this-I AM TIRED. Am I asking for sympathy? No! But I do not need to have my chops busted here for not following the directions PERFECTLY................

THANK YOU,EVERYONE-YOU HAVE SAVED ME AND MY FISH!!!!!!!!!!! :heart :heart :heart :heart

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I prefer Metro 20% to gel food since Frederica said you have to feed so much. Against dropsy Metro is better. (I've never used MM, don't have it here. I just watch you guys use it and judge it's results).

I have to say that I am super happy with the MMs now that I am weighing the fish before using them. As long as you feed at least 1% of the fish's body weight they really do work extremely well. DOn't forget to follow with a few months of jumpstart of gel food with probiotics.

It's good to know the comparisons but Susan's fish are very weak now and trying to get them to eat is already a challenge. So in the meantime I think Metro is more appropriate.

In the instances when I've treated my fish with metro-meds, they loved it. One percent sounds like quite a lot of food, but I've never had any problems feeding them this much. The only issue is that they poop a lot, but this is true when you feed any fish that much food.

Yes agreed, it also depend on what sickness you are dealing with too.

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MetroMed's active ingredient is Metronidazole.

MetroMeds = Metronidazole

JungleAP= Metronidazole + Prazi

Available in Australia is Metronidazole.. aka Flagyl.. our No1 treatment for Bacteria/infection/parasitic infestation in humans as well as animals. available by prescription only via GP and Vets..

i get my hands on it whenever i need to. if you would like a sample Jeff, just ask, i will be happy to supply.

it is available in tablet form to humans and pets. i believe Migaloo obtained it from the vet for her Oranda in liquid form..

what we are dealing with here is far greater on the interior than the exterior, wasted effort to treat the visable signs when the internals are moving at a quicker rate. all that is needed is metro and salt at 0.3% daily waterchanges, temp to 80F to increase the motabolism of the fish so that the goodness of the meds can be digested at a faster rate.

i see no need for treating any other way at this point, but clearly, others do. hence why i backed off and allowed susan to decide for herself to which she entertained resuming the original treatment plan more than once until intervened several times by others and only to come to the same conclusion again.

the secondary bacterial infection WILL kill in high numbers if not under control within the next few days. BOTH dropsy fish need to be seperated to QT tank/tub with 80F, epsom AND MetroMeds at 1% body weight

the treatment plan has worked successfully for others that many times, i am astounded that 8 pages later susan is still asking which way to go.. too many cooks spoil the brew as they say in australia,.

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I suppose the starting point here should be to examine each fish(and take pis to show you guys-I trust your eyes more than I do mine at this point!!),to determine the course of action for the pond. For instance-The only way I can see for a disinfecting to be effective is if while I have the pond fish in the 50g bin,I either pp and/or give them 1 salt bath(and will just 1 knock off the parasites? I will only have time for 1 while they are in the bin-I can follow up w/ the other 2 dips after they are back in the pond.)

Sorry to hear you got more problems with your pond fish too. What a shocker! I've been thinking for the past half hour on how best to treat your fish. I'll reply on your other posts on how to go about it.

Lionchu,I was not talking about the rocks in the planters-I can toss that-there is a small tray of rocks in the filter-can I PP those along w/ the pond(4 hrs.) and re-use them? I will completely replace all sponged filter materials(I knew that spare set would come in handy some day!!!!!!! but I don't have spare rocks.)

When we talked about this yesterday, we didn't know about all these new issues. Looks like we have to compromise and do things a bit different than planned. Yes, just nuke them rocks too and all sponge filter material, don't bother changing them now.

Can I feed them BOTH the metro gel AND MM? I'm just trying to have a variable in case the lionhead and kirin ranchu don't have an appetite.

EDIT: Just to clarify-is acriflavine ok w/ salt AND metro in the water? I will wait to add acriflavine until I get the ok...........Thank you.

Feeding both??? Perhaps Alex, Frederica or someone can give you a better advice. Acriflavine with 0.3% salt but no Metro in water please. don't want to complicate things and tip your fish over. Salt will take care of those Ich and finrots while acriflavine will knock out the bacteria and speed up the healing process.

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Lionchu, the active ingredients in Metro-Meds are metronidazole, Romet B (sulfadimethoxine + ormetoprim), and oxytetracycline. I hope that helps in your determination of whether the MMs should be given exclusively, along with the Metronidazole-based gel food, or just gel food.

Good luck, Susan! I know the next few weeks are going to be rough, but you can and the fish can make it!

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