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kukana d

HELP,PLEASE!

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eep! they have been in plain salt-I will take it out and add epsom.They are already @ 80*-i will maintain that.

Yes,they are together in a 15 g tub-80*,salt(which i'll remove),and Metro in their water. Here are their histories:

The O came in w/ the infected batch of fish. He was qt'd w/ prazi for 2 weeks.

-I put him into the pond when I discovered the ammo. in the qt (3/4/12)

-the next day I found him floating on his side,put him into a qt,along w/ the fish that infected this current tank(2 ranchu1 lionhead),and treated w/ o/a in food and water.

-the guy he was qt'd w/ has since died.

-last Sunday I put him into his own qt,salted .3%(over 24 hrs),metro in water,and metro gel food.

-now on MM as of today.

-lasted only 30 sec in 1st salt dip(2.5%).next dip was 5 min@1.5%,awating next dip-trying 2.5 again

-believe it or not,this poor guy is a 'longtailed' oranda-it's just eroded away.

The tele:

-had flipping issues,then sank on his side about 1.5-2 mos. ago,but stayed in pond.

-started on MM in pond (approx Tues.)

-moved to qt yesterday-.3% salt,metro water,metro gel last night

-1 salt dip @ 3%-yesterday

-in tub w/ Oranda

Ok-will continue trtmnt as planned-just interested in what you had to say about the .5% salt.I had called Ken when all of this started and he did not get back to me until yesterday-thus the late input. And yes,thank heaven they are doing so much better. I know we're not out of the woods here,but I NEVER thought Ithey would do even this well.

Re the lionhead's back-yes,I can push him under.He does some swimming on his own also and goes under. I have biobandage-do you think that might help? Or maybe some Neosporin?

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susan,

your dedication to rectifying the problems is paying off. keep up the good work and all shall be better soon. some difficult week to 10 days perhaps even more ahead of you, but you can do this. you've already brought them a long way from what they were. i am very pleased with the results thus far and applaud your efforts.

we're far from being out of the woods, but at the same time, we've come a long way from when we started. the main thing is that we continue to move forward even if it's just baby steps we see, this means, the bacteria on the inside is becoming less with each day that passes.

re the 0.5% salt, yes, this is correct.. for a very short time fish can endure this, but, provided their params are monitored twice daily. they can even go higher, but for the state of your fish currently, it's not recommended and given that they're already showing such good improvements, i wouldn't be recommending a higher dose at all.

let me know if you need more help with the pineconers and i will be more than happy to help.

for the lionhead, biobandage i have heard works, so does some vasaline.. either one should help keep the exposed area moist. i have no experience with Neosporin so i can't comment on that one.

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Susan, will you carefully check to see if there is any ich on the two pineconed fish?

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Thanks,Helen-I figure it's the least I can do after tossing sickly fish into their very healthy tank! We would be NOWHERE w/o you guys-they were doomed for sure. Ok on the salt-just wanted to touch on all info.

Alex,I was wondering about the salt too-reg. for ich or epsom for dropsy......... Here is the teles pic from 2 days ago-it looks like he may have it on his anal and pelvic fins-not much,but I do see white there-as I do when I just looked at him. Isn't he a cinch to have it since he was stuck on the bottom of the pond-and others out there have it? The O-it's hard to say w/ all that white and his tail gone-but there is some white at the frays. I would think he'd be a cinch too-having been exposed to it the way he was. What should I do about the salt? Honestly? I just don't trust my assessment of things after all this. I could take a vid or try to get some better pics if you think that would help. Also,I assume I should keep the metro in the water for the 2 dropsies? Heres the teles pic from wed........

20120314_7719-1.jpg?t=1331767400

Another important ?- I have been feeding these 3 in a basket,so I can drop it in and monitor it-but in having them there amI making them an easy target for more infestation? That's how poor Blue got so bad-when I isolated him b/c he was picking on the 2 weaker fish(this is back when I did not know what was going on-before you guys diagnosed them)Or now that we're treating the ich it doesn't matter if they're in a basket? I leave them there for about 15 min or so to eat-3x/day............

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Hi, Susan, since you are already in the extremely capable hands of Lionchu & Helen, I'm not going to interfere with treatment suggestions, since that can only confound things. I did (and do) want to emphasize that point to you guys, so that you can make the appropriate call. It does look like there are some ich spots, but I am not 100% on this. If there are, I think that should also be dealt with, since treating dropsy alone and not ich concurrently could render everything moot.

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Helen or Lionchu,are you around? What needs to be dealt w/ first? This occured to me as I thought I needed to remove the regular and add the epsom for the p/c'ing ,but they are both also due for a salt dip. Wouldn't the reg. salt in the dip be adverse to the effect of the epsom? Just tell me and I'm prepared to do whatever-I have new tubs waiting w/ nothing added yet...........

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yes

susan, qt the pineconers separately as you have. dose only epsom at the rate of 1/4 teaspoon per 10US gallons. you can add metro into the water at the same time, but the main thing is that they consume the MetroMeds.

Edited by stakos
keyboard got stuck (O.o)

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They are qt'd separately,but they are also each due for a 3% 5 min dip-should I forego that and add the epsom? Are we going to stop treating them w/ salt for the ich? Or is the epsom just a real temporary thing? Or is the MM going to take care if the ich? I'm sorry,I just want to make sure I get it right............

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in my opinion, the normal salt is probably going to assist in retaining fluid. how many more times do they need to be dipped?

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the o-just 1 more.and the tele 2more dips. after tonight-in a few minutes if I get the ok-that will go to 0 & 1..........

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ok. if it's just one more, then do it.. but please, once you start the epsom, do not salt dip anymore.

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Ok,thanks,Helen............So I will add epsom to their tub tomorrow night after tele's last dip.Should I wait a few hours after the last dip to start the epsom?

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sounds like a plan.. i just don't want you using regular salt in any way once you have started the epsom.

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I agree with Helen. Don't salt dip in case it messes with the water regulation. But I just want to emphasize the importance of really feeding them LOTS of MMs. How is their balance?

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I just did salt dip-but did not add epsom-added .3% back in w/ metro. Tomorrow the tele gets his last dip-the tomorrow nite I can add the epsom a few hours after his last dip-sound good? The o's balance is fine,but the t'ele is stuck on bottom-no balance. The MM sure does foul up their water! Between that and there being 2 of them now-more w/cs,I think. Or maybe it would help to feed them less food but several more times so it doesn't sit it the water for long-maybe better to absorb more meds.

Wanted to report that when I used a cotton pad to dab the LH's back before putting BB,some tissue came off and a little blood.I don't know if that means anything,but wanted to report it.

I am off to bed-another 2am turn in-OMG :o Thank you,everyone for another day of help and support :heart:k045:

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Hang in there Susan we are all pulling for you and your fish :) please do make sure you get some rest :) keeping you in my prayers :)

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ok hun.. now, as soon as you've finished the salt dip with the tele, you can start with preparing a 100% wc.. so gently set them aside in a large tub whilst you prepare their new environment, just make sure to not take too long as the tub water will become too cold. did you say that you have a 15gallon that they're in now and will be treating the epsom in that? if so, then just a little over 1/4 teaspoon but not a 1/2 teaspoon of epsom dissolved in a bit of tank water will be plenty. like your usual aquarium salt, you have to add back what you remove only.. this is why i do the 100% wc when treating with epsom daily so that i don't mix it up.. i am the worst maths person in the world :(

temp at 80F

little over 1/4teaspoon for the 15 gallon

daily waterchanges

feed MetroMeds

yes, the MM's do foul the water, but you need to understand that with the temp at 80F, their motabolism is increased and this causes faster digestion = more frequent pooping. i too have noticed that MM's make the water slightly cloudy.

is the LH being fed the MM's also? i am thinking that some melafix for his new wound or a sterile swabbing of whatever you guys use there? i use betadine, not sure if you have it there. where is the LH currently placed? is he with the others that are receiving 0.3% salt also?

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Hi Susan,

I hope you're beginning to see some light at the end of the tunnel.

I've been through something very similar and it's emotionally devastating not to mention terribly draining.

Like so many others, I'm hoping for the best, wishing you every good luck and look forward to hearing some good news from you.

BTW, your videos, pictures and detailed descriptions have been nothing short of sensational, You couldn't have have done a better job trying to help your goldfish - if you had tried ~ Peter

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Helen or Lionchu,are you around? What needs to be dealt w/ first? This occured to me as I thought I needed to remove the regular and add the epsom for the p/c'ing ,but they are both also due for a salt dip. Wouldn't the reg. salt in the dip be adverse to the effect of the epsom? Just tell me and I'm prepared to do whatever-I have new tubs waiting w/ nothing added yet...........

Sorry, I had to do my pond maintenance and attended to my fry culling for the whole afternoon. Like Alex had mentioned, there is the Ich to worry about too beside the dropsy. Between the two, I think you should tackle the dropsy first as per Helen's method as it's more critical. Since you are doing lots of w/c, I don't think those ich will explode into bigger numbers. (anyway, most fish do carry some ich most of the time). If by any chance they are are problematic, you can do a short salt dip, say 2% for 1-2mins, that will keep them at bay. ok I'll leave you to it.

Cheers and good luck.

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Ok,here is today's report:

-The dropsied babes have been moved into 15g, 1/4tsp + 1/8tsp epsom,and water metro(2-3 hrs. ago)-and 81*F. They are both eating the MM fine. I weighed them and they are w/i a gram of each other @ 125g and 124g. So how much MM should they be getting each? 1.25g/day each? I abandoned the tele's last salt dip in order to get the epsom on board. The oranda completed the 3 dip series.

-The pond babies have had their daily w/c-adding back .3% salt.Temp. is about 76*(it's cold and rainy here today). I will do their last dip later-or possibly tomorrow. I will do more of a visual tomorrow-hopefully better weather.

-The tub trio are getting their appetites back! They are a bit more voracious at feeding time ! My heart skipped a beat last night when kirin 'went after' some food on the bottom of the basket :th_news: They've eaten 2x already today.Will I be switching them over to MM? I ask b/c I need to make more metro gel,if they're not. I think I prefer the gel b/c of the mess of MM-and don't know that they are up to eating the required amnt. of MM.

Their water remains constant @ .3% salt,water metro,81*F.

-The LH does not have any 'new' wounds-it's the same irritated spot that sticks out of the water. Yes,he is in w/ the 2 rancu in .3% salt and metro. I have put biobandage on it 2x now- just before I switch them into fresh water.Today I used cotton balls,instead of pads,and there was no bleeding or tissue removal. I have been a little reluctant to add Melafix to water that has salt and metro in it already-I know it's pretty benign,but it is a 3rd agent-and I just wanted to double check with you guys. Is it safe,or hold off?

I am going to my sister's house for a SP Day dinner,but will be back in a few hours. Here is a vid I took yesterday but did not have time to post(for some reason the better vid would not upload :doh11: ):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_W4MJ442khs&list=UUSLWj2Q-E1iBeAhOOEyOwOw&index=1&feature=plcp

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looking good :) hang in there and enjoy some saint patty's day festivities ;)

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susan! good news and i am very happy :D you're doing so well!!!

ok at this point, i will feed them as much as they will eat. even if it's over the recommended dose of MM's for the dropsied fish.. just get as much in there gobs as possible.. i would do this for 2 days straight, then look at reducing or increasing to the desired 1% of bodyweight. i suck at math, so alex or someone with a brain should stop by to work that out for us :)

everything else is good. yes, feed the fish MM's until they recover from bacteria.. ie, untill we have the clean bill of health :)

for the LH, go ahead and add the Melafix, it can be used with both other treatments. he will need it as it risks becoming infected due to the compromised slime coat. we need to sterilize the water and melafix is great for that too.

have a great st pat's day :)

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Guys,some ?s again-about water: My tap comes out @ ammo-1 and nitrite-.25-this is why I typically use 75-80% r/o : 20-25% tap mix. Throughout this ordeal I have been trying to slowly increase the amnt of tap-it makes w/c' s easier/faster.I've also been adding Prime @ 2x the dose. Today I had hoped to switch over to 100% tap-so I just retested the tap and it is indeed am 1,ni-.25. Wouldn't it be bad to add that water using salt? And given their health is compromised? Yesterday my ratio was about 1/3 ro and 2/3s tap(No,I have not tested the water in the tubs yet). And I am using no filtration,so there's nothing to convert that,except the Prime to bind it. What do you guys think? Note: I have been using 100% tap in the pond w/ all of these w/cs(and no filtration) Isn't it bad to use salt w/ those levels? It particularly worries me w/ the 3 in the tub.

Also,I have only 1 feeding of the metro gel left-should I make more for the 2 ranchu and L/H (the 3 that were SO sick)-since they have recovered w/ it so well? Or do they need to be getting other benefits from metro-meds?

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susan, are you still doing daily wc's on most?

if you are, and with the use of prime detoxifying the ammonia, some help by your filters, i think we should be fine. it's more important for them to get fresh water daily until they recover.

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