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spillie

White lump on goldfish tail, blood streaks

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    Test Results for the Following:
  • * Ammonia Level .5
  • * Nitrite Level 2 or 5 (can't tell from the test card which it is)
  • * Nitrate level 20
  • * Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) 8.2
  • * Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) 7.4
    Other Required Info:
  • * Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? API
  • * Water temperature 73
  • * Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? 8.5 6 days (QT)
  • * What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)? Aquaclear 20
  • * How often do you change the water and how much? Just changes 70%, first time since setting up the tank

  • * How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change? 6--all new water (QT)
  • * How many fish in the tank and their size? 1, 2 inches
  • * What kind of water additives or conditioners? prime
  • * What do you feed your fish and how often? NLS betta pellets, gel foor , tetrabits
  • * Any new fish added to the tank? this is a new fish bought last weekend
  • * Any medications added to the tank? prazi, salt (.1%)
  • * List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment. Prazi, salt since the tank has been set up.
  • * Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? white lump that seems to go through the tail, bloody streaks
  • * Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.? no

Ok, this is my fault. I took cycled media from a betta tank, but I guess it did not hold enough BBs for a goldfish. Just tested the water in prep for a water change and was shocked to see some ammonia and high nitrites. The fish has developed a white lump on her tail that you can see on top and also underneath. This started yesterday. Also beginning to show bloody streaks in the tail that were not there this morning. I changed about 70%, still at .1% salt, no prazi, and am setting up new water in a bucket with an airstone to bring the Ph up for another water change tomorrow. Is there anything else I should do? And what is the lump?

I could not get a really good picture, but this probably gives a pretty good idea of what I am seeing:

http://i409.photobucket.com/albums/pp178/Spillie/tail002.jpg

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Haven't got enough knowledge to be able to help, but just wanted to say - hope your fish gets better soon!

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do you have cycled media anywhere else? you really need cycled media so that there is no ammonia and begin salting immedaitely. i think salt will fix this but i worry for ammonia. at the moment and immediately, i would do many water changes.. 2 or 3 back to back as many as it takes to bring every param down to 0.

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Stakos, should I do it now or wait until morning when the PH is up? It goes from 7.4-8.3. My water change today was planned, so I had aerated it in a bucket for about 8 hours before changing it tonight. And should I stay at .1% salt or up it now to .2%? He's been in .1% all week, so adding more now--even though I just changed the water, also with .1%--would not be a shock.

What makes the white lump? I saw that first, and now their is a bloody sort of ring around it, so the two seem to be connected.

I have an extra bag of media in my eheim canister on the big tank, so I'll take that apart and switch out the betta media.

Edited by spillie

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it could just be a pimple or a small external bacteria cyst. either way, we've seen them before and salt has done wonders for them.

is there any way you can get seachem alkaline buffer today (rather soon) to do a wc? i have heard bicarb soda can act as a temporary fix, but i have never used this product to raise PH before so i don't know how to advise for it.

i would not be recommending upping salt levels in a non cycled tank.. do you have cycled media anywhere else? ie, your current goldie tanks, are they cycled? can you pinch some media from there?

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immediately add double the dose of prime. what did you buy? lionhead?

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Yes, the dear little lionhead. gosh.

I just put media from my big tank in the QT and retested the ammonia, it's now 0. Looks like the first water change took car of that. Nitrites are now .25

I cannot get any buffer here now (it's 11 PM)-fish stores close at 6 or 7. It typically takes 6-8 hours to bring up the ph with an airstone. I am heating the bucket water now, too, with a 100w heater. I may just begin to put it in about an hour, and will add a second airstone in the meantime. That should bring it up a bit.

It looks like the cyst that was going through the tail burst since the water change. There is now a hole in the tail where it was (though still a white bit sticking up a bit higher on the tail)

Edited by spillie

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can you experiment with bicarb soda? ie, put a gallon of water aside and see how much bicarbonate soda is needed to up the PH to match the tank PH? then just dose the new water per gallon with bicarb soda of what you worked out.

i am concerned that you by some miracle have removed ammonia from the water by just adding cycled media.. that was a super speedy result. can you retest ammonia please? i think you got a funky result.

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I think it was the new water from the water change i did earlier this evening (I tested the old water before the water change and got the high values, now tested what is in the tank post that water change). It may be the prime--I generally overdose in the bucket. I'll retest the ammonia.

Ammonia still showing zero.

Edited by spillie

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BTW I am a bit afraid to use the baking soda, as my tank will rise to 8.3 through aging/aeration. If I add the baking soda, to bring it up to that 8.3 now, will the PH go really high once it ages?

Haven't got enough knowledge to be able to help, but just wanted to say - hope your fish gets better soon!

Thank you!

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if the ammonia has dropped. then don't worry about the wc till when the water is ready. aim to do large daily waterchanges, replenish salt as you water change. keep this going for a week, you should start seeing a significant improvement as an overall with your fish within the first two days. keep an eye on the spot, red surrounding area should begin to disappear within a few days also.. then the spot should begin disappearing too..

if things go the other way, post back immedaitely you notice.

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Thanks to Helen ( :) ) we're back on track. I did another 80% water change this AM. The ammonia and nitries are now both zero. The cyst has burst and there is now a hole in his tail where it was, and still red around it, but the red that was showing at the base of the tail is gone. Still has a white sort of solid lump on the tail spine above the hole, which is what this started out with. The fish himself is acting completely normally, thank goodness. The take-away lesson from this for me is don't be overly confident because cycled media is in the QT tank--I did not test for a few days as I was too confident, and thus created this issue for my sweet little lionhead as a consequence. :( But, things are looking up. :)

Edited by spillie

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this is great news.. keep up with the daily waterchanges whilst the now "hole" is healing. it should show white and fluffy healing.. we need to keep a close eye on it so that the hole does not grow or the fluff does not begin to look nasty. i find that healing fins from problems like this, if the water is not pristine, can easily turn into finrot. so keep testing daily or every other day for every param, not just ammonia.

were there any other concerns you had for this fish other than the cystie looking thing?

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everything is looking good so i have nothing to add EXCEPT......................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................... STAKOS IS THE BEST!! LOL always helping... giving good advice.. and quick response.. this forum and koko is extremely lucky to have you!!! :D you helped me and many thers... and from them, me and all the lucky fish!! WE THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!! :D

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everything is looking good so i have nothing to add EXCEPT......................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................... STAKOS IS THE BEST!! LOL always helping... giving good advice.. and quick response.. this forum and koko is extremely lucky to have you!!! :D you helped me and many thers... and from them, me and all the lucky fish!! WE THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!! :D

O my gosh!! i have really rosy cheeks right now. thank you for your wonderful compliment :)

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Just an update, it is day three of good water (showing 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites) and the hole where the bacterial cyst was seem to be filling in, but there is still a bloody ring around it that does not seem to be diminshing. If anything is seems darker and more defined, though the red at the base of the tail is gone. There is still one thin bloody streak, pale, that is radiating from the base to the hole, less than before. But, re the bloody ring around the hole, should I be worried/do anything differently? Water was changed Thursday night and again Friday AM, again today 80% each time, and I have .2% salt in the water. This fish continues to act normally, but I am a bit concerned. I saw a stringy white poo yesterday AM, but since then, are normal/food colored, maybe with a bit of clear at the end, though.. I'll try to get pic.

Edited by spillie

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Here are pics from today..

http://i409.photobuc...tailday4007.jpg

http://i409.photobuc...tailday4004.jpg

I do have medigold and some other meds, not sure how much time I should give this before I should start thinking about meds-- I hate to medicate unless I need to, but also do not want to wait too long if this is developing into a bigger problem.

Actually, the pics show a bit more red in the tail than I thought, but still better than it was on Friday morning. (It is Sunday afternoon for me here, now)

Edited by spillie

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What waterborne meds do you have, spillie? I've found that for external issues like this, waterborne meds is actually the best and most rapid way to dealing with it. I'm thinking Maracyn 2.

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Alex--so glad you are still awake! I have Maracyn 2, Maracyn Plus, and Furan 2. I expected to see an improvement by now, but maybe it's too soon. Anyway, my concern is that is it getting worse. But, this could also be the way it looks getting better, as the hole is quite big. No idea..

Edited by spillie

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I just went and compared pics from two days ago, and it looks to me like it is healing. There are definitely dilated vessels, but they don't look particularly angry. Keep in mind that when a fish mounts an immune response to an infection, this response will include vasodilators to open the channels for the immune cells to get to the site.

I think two days is still a bit early, and I might just wait for a tad longer (later today?) to see how things go.

If/when you do decide to treat, go with Maracyn 2. Amazingly enough, the last several times people have used this on their tank, the cycle was intact. Minocycline is light sensitive though, so make sure to cover the tank.

Perhaps we can wait until later in the evening for you before deciding?

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Thanks! Yes, I can wait until tonight or tomorrow, too. Just wanted to check in about all this. If I end up using the M2, is .2% salt OK, or should I take it out? (Just asking that question now, in case I forget to ask it later.)

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Take out the salt. I don't think the two work against each other, but salt is not needed :)

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