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chade617

Oranda Split Tail Fin from LPS...will it heal?

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Good day All,

Just a quick question this crisp Ohio morning. I picked up a Blue Oranda from a local pet shop over the weekend that I couldn't resist. He is perhaps one of the best examples of a "true" blue that I have encountered. Most blues that I have seen (in person) are mainly silver with large amounts of bronze and green. This guy's body is almost entirely steel, with a thin bronze line on the side and his fins are a dusty blue/grey color. He is about an inch long with a deep, plump body and has good head growth for his size.

My only concern is that his tail fin seems to have been damaged in transit to the store. One side has a minor kink in it and the other side a slightly split. I know the kink will probably not go away, but I hope that it will get "better" as he grows. The split fin is very shallow (maybe 1/8" to 3/16")and reminds me of the tongue of a small snake. The ps employee told me that it will heal, but I have some doubts.

So the question is, will the split fin truly "zip" back up and is there anything I can do to help it along??

Thanks for the help!!

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some do and some don't.. it really all depends on exactly where it tore. is the fish in qt? is it cycled? if so, you can add some aquarium salt to assist in the repair of the tail. the fish should be in qt going through a salt and prazi process anyhow (provided the filter is cycled) before adding it to the main tank.

congratulations on your new fish by the way.. don't forget to flood us with photos so that we can all drool :) and be happy for your ofcourse :rofl

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BUSTED!! The little guy is not in quarantine. :( Here's why...

I have been after a quality Blue for YEARS now and every time I find one of my liking, I seem to kill it by over-analyzing. Before I was "in-the-know," I used to just add fish directly to the main tank and would never have a problem. It seems that I cause myself more problems by quarantining than I do by just playing dumb. I have lost 3 blues due to quarantining/acclimating issues over the past 2 years and this time I just decided to go old school. I know I run the risk of jeopardizing my entire tank, but I have never had issues with fish from this particular local store in the past and this particular Blue had been there for over a week. I am keeping my fingers crossed and hoping for the best.

I am sure that I have immediately lost the respect of 90% of the people on here, but I do fully support quarantining. I am just trying to save me from myself in this case. I am so desperate for a healthy Blue that I am afraid of doing too much.

I appreciate your reply and advice. I typically keep my main tank salted at .1 - .3% at all times, which also seems to be a bit controversial. Will this be adequate? I hesistate to move the little guy into quarantine at this point, as this is his 3rd day in the main tank and he seems to be doing fine.

Thanks again and I apologize for not following code!

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Also, the split is directly at the tip of the lower caudal. I have read about suturing a tail fin, but there doesn't seem to be enough meat there to hold. Thanks again!

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.1-.3% salt at all times? hmmm, i would be questioning that before anything as to why you lose fish. salt is a medicine, you are trying to prevent problems by maintaining a salt level in your tank. a goldfish does not live in salt in their normal environment. if your fish was to become ill, we will not be able to guide you through the basic steps of medicines being salt before having to go the harsh antibiotics..

everytime we medicate fish, it shortens their lifespan, you're medicating your fish 100% of the time. we use salt to repair fins, slime coat, low levels of salt to assist in their breathing when they're ill and also to fight external parasites like ich and assist with fighting flukes.

are you concerned for parasites? is that why you medicate? perhaps you should invest in a UV sterilizer? that would be a healthier option for your fish.

also salt accelerates the presence of toxins in the water. if you were to have a cycle crash, the rate that ammonia would rise in the water would most likely harm your fish before you realized what was happening.. that is provided you test your water weekly as well as maintain weekly waterchanges.

that's my two cents worth, no harm intended. just felt like sharing my thoughts.

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and just so that you know, i am still waiting for photos. you may as well post a few, one which shows the rip in the fin too.

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Congrats on the new fish! :D I would love to see pics!

I don't think anyone is going to lose respect for you for not Qting, it is a choice that others here have made as well. Obviously, it is better to QT, as the risks to the tank are greatly reduced, but you won't be shunned for not doing so ;)

Stakos covered the issue of salting the tank on a regular basis but I just wanted to add that you can think about it in comparison to what is happening with people and the overuse of antibiotics. Salt, just like antibiotics is medication, so if we use it all the time the pathogens that are typically treated with it can become resistant (just like the antibiotic resistant bugs that have developed in people). Then, we have to resort to harsher medications that can do far more damage to the fish. So, I would urge you to reconsider salting your tank on a regular basis :)

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Thank you both for the advice. I have always salted with the impression/understanding that the presence of salt will lower stress levels of the fish and that many pathogens can't survive in the presence of salt. Kind of a flu-shot for fish?? Your explanation for resistance makes perfect sense. I am scheduled for a 30% water change tongiht and will not add salt to the new water.

Stakos, you say that salt will increase toxins in the water? I have been having a terrible time controlling the nitrate in this bigger tank ever since I set it up almost a year ago. I have placed the blame on the gravel in the bottom of the tank (which I will be removing soon) but do you think the salt could be a factor??

As for pictures, they will have to wait until at least tonight when I am home from work. Sorry!

Thank you again for the help!

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nitrates will have to do with the amount of food you feed them, the size tank you have and how many fish you have in it. when a filter is cycled, it will turn highly toxic ammonia into less toxic nitrates. nitrates are safter than ammonia but still should be maintained at under 20ppm, some fish are even sensitive to nitrates at that level.

if your filter is not cycled, then ammonia will just keep climbing.

the only way you can really reduce nitrates is to do back to back water changes. they need to be around 60-70% each, back to back. you have to remember to match the temperature of the tap water to the tank water as well as the PH.

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The filter is cycled. My pH is 7.6 give or take a couple of stops, ammonia and nitrites have always been 0, but the nitrate soars upwards of 180 at times. Weekly (rather than bi-weekly) water changes have brought it down to 40 or so. I just need to do another major wc. Has anyone tried a planted HOB filter? I have run across the below article and many like it. Do you see any downsides to this with our goldies??

http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?208931-HOB-Nitrate-Filter

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Have you checked your tap for nitrates?

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Would you mind filling out the questions below? With a tap nitrate under 10 you should not be getting readings of 180. More info about your setup overall might help get to the root of this issue :D


    Test Results for the Following:
  • * Ammonia Level
  • * Nitrite Level
  • * Nitrate level
  • * Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)
  • * Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)
    Other Required Info:
  • * Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops?
  • * Water temperature?
  • * Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running?
  • * What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)?
  • * How often do you change the water and how much?

  • * How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change?
  • * How many fish in the tank and their size?
  • * What kind of water additives or conditioners?
  • * What do you feed your fish and how often?
  • * Any new fish added to the tank?
  • * Any medications added to the tank?
  • * List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment.
  • * Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus?
  • * Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.?

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  • * Ammonia Level 0 ppm
  • * Nitrite Level 0 ppm
  • * Nitrate level 50 on a good day - 80 to 100 day before WC
  • * Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) 7.4 to 7.6
  • * Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) NA - use no additives other than water conditioner
    Other Required Info:
  • * Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? API Master Drops
  • * Water temperature? Room temp - 68 to 72
  • * Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? 46 Gal - 8 months
  • * What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)? Fluval 405
  • * How often do you change the water and how much? 25 to 30% Bi-Weekly until a month ago. Closer to 50% now weekly.

  • * How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change? 7 days - 60% for Nitrate
  • * How many fish in the tank and their size? 4 Fancy Goldies, 2 Med (3-4 inches) 2 small (1 to 2 inches) Other 2 are small in 15 Gallon
  • * What kind of water additives or conditioners? Jack's Pets Water Conditioner, occasional Jack's Pets Bio Boost
  • * What do you feed your fish and how often? Aquadine Mix Sinking Pellet - 1 to 2 times per day, as much as can be eaten in 2 - 4 minutes. Good stuff, but breaks down quickly.
  • * Any new fish added to the tank? Yes, small Blue Oranda added on Saturday
  • * Any medications added to the tank? Constant salt content of .1 to .3%
  • * List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment. Never medicate main tank other than salt. Always use 10 Gallon quarantine.
  • * Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? Blue has split fin from PS
  • * Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.? No issue!

I really think the gravel is the culprit. There are certain areas that I just can't get to with my siphon, so it doesn't get cleaned as well, or as often as it should. I am weeks away from removing all of the gravel and going bare bottom, in hopes that this will correct the nitrate issues. I have been keeping tanks for nearly 15 years and have never had WC issues. This is the largest tank I have owned and I think I over did the gravel and underestimated the filth. Thanks for the help!

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Given that you are stocked to capacity I would aim for closer to 80% water changes every 5-7 days. I would follow Stakos' advice and do a couple large back to back water changes to get the nitrates down and start with a 'clean slate' so to speak. Then, keep up on the regular large water changes, that should make a big difference in the nitrates, otherwise your setup looks good, you just don't have a lot of room for error with 4 in a 46 gallon.

I am always a supporter of removing gravel personally ;) Just make sure you do it over time (25% a week) to avoid a cycle bump :)

I think the pothos is a great idea as well, I think Fang had hers in a filter at one point (I think it is free-floating in the tank now), if you search the forum there should be several links on it recently.

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tanks are absolutely beautiful when they are bare bottom.. have a look in our picture section to see the difference between gravel and bare bottom.. i had gravel for so many years, i am the happiest person alive to have removed it. everything is cleaner, healthier, fish are brighter black colouring stays longer.. i honestly can't recommend going bare bottom in aquariums enough. it think it's the best.

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Thanks for the advice! I will definitely start on the bare bottom project soon. My wife and I are planning on buying a house in the next 4 months, so I hesistate to tear everything down now, only to do it again in 2 to 4 months. I may just remove it slowly and then start fresh with no gravel after the move.

I ended up leaving work early yesterday due to illness, so the pictures will have to wait until probably tomorrow, since today is Valentine's Day. I suppose I can spend tonight with my wife... :wub:

Thanks again for the help! I will keep you posted on the fin.

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