Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
miss_mystra

A very long story about 2 orandas...

Recommended Posts

Yeah the snail is still alive, not convinced they'll be with us much longer with all the salt and treatments etc, but i have nowhere to put them.

hun.. that snail that is next to him in the photos. is it alive?

He just does the odd attempt at movement but it seems less and less controlled. it's like he's trying to jump out the water. he mad dash to the surface and them tumble back down and land on the floor of the tank. It's horrible.

I did 80% tonight, i'll just do 50% tomorrow i think, i have to work late tomorrow anyway.

i just wish i could work out what to do for him. He got really stressed when i syringe fed him :( i keep thinking when he makes his mad dash to the surface is it because he is in pain or is he trying to get better or build strength up again. i'm not even sure he is constipated really as he hasn't eaten properly for ages.

i am at such a loss at what to do. His tail is starting to look tattier, a bit more splitting in places. Not as bad as Precious that last morning though. But i'm worried i'm thinking of euthanasia because i feel bad for him, if he wanted to die he'd have done it by now surely! rather than doing it purely for him if that makes sense.

i would keep feeding him like that until he poops to be honest. he may not have received enough epsom for his body size. thoughts are, prehaps this time to not crush it so finely. when a fish is well but not pooping, ie, heavily contipated, we don't crush the epsom, we just insert it into a pea and the fish consumes it whole. if pedro hasn't eaten enough of the pea, then not enough epsom has got into his system. is he moving less and less?

50% water change will do just fine.

don't you worry about how many times you post here, your thoughts on the matter are more than welcome and we're here for support to you as well as your fish. we know very well exactly what you're going through.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

this morning... he's about the same... not a lot to report. didn't see him swim or anything though but that's probably because he wasn't awake enough yet, which is normal for him at 8am

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

also, seeing as there is little debris because of vacuuming the bottom everyday, and no food in the tank for a while i put one algae wafer in for the loach, Pedro used to go crazy for these and steal them off the loach many moons ago, *sigh* will be hoovering it up no doubt as they are a bit messy when they soak and start to break up! but felt sorry for the loach, nothing wrong with him but having to put up with all the stress water changes medicating and salting the tank and never being fed so i guess he needed it.

i wish Pedro could tell me what he wants, or at least what's really wrong. even if i cure current illness he'll still be upside down from the original issue that he's had for past 5 months. he just looks so sad behind the eyes, i miss my manic little devil giving me the angry face when i don't drop my own dinner into the tank for him at my dinner time lol. Tried to see what my boyfriend thought, but because he doesn't understand fish illness even on a newbie level, he couldn't really give an opinion. For a fish with a ferocious appetite, to see him let food land on his face and not react just doesn't seem right (that was the other week, i haven't fed him recently other than the syringe and he showed no interest in the algae wafer today, although i didn't let it land on him)

i don't know what to do other than watch my poor fish be miserable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

back home now, Pedro is still exactly the same, although i can see more tears in his fins and tail. it looks like breathing jolts his body every time, not a huge jolt but it's jolty

in 20 mins he's attempted a mad swim once. is this behaviour an indication of anything? basically he swims in big loop the loops to the surface, as if trying to leap out, then he crashes down to the bottom exhausted. He's not spinning himself (as in corkscrewing)

I don't know what to do :( it's heartbreaking. i'm probably repeating like a broken record now :(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

hun. can you give me nitrAte param from the tap and again from the tank?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I been reading your thread, even talked to Stakos about your thread. Something stood out "Nitrate Poisoning" Silent but deadly :(

Here are two good articles about it, I havent written anything about this yet, and I should.

http://goldfish-emergency.com/viewpage.php?page_id=66

http://www.arkansasstripers.com/nitrate-poisoning-in-bait-tanks.htm

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

hun. can you give me nitrAte param from the tap and again from the tank?

25ppm in the tank, so i'm guessing the tap water is the same or less.

I been reading your thread, even talked to Stakos about your thread. Something stood out "Nitrate Poisoning" Silent but deadly :(

Here are two good articles about it, I havent written anything about this yet, and I should.

http://goldfish-emer....php?page_id=66

http://www.arkansass...-bait-tanks.htm

this is what i believe caused this long term flip over to be honest. the nitrate straight out the tap in October came out at 50-80ppm on a regular basis. i only tested the tap water after reading the first article, i tested tank water first and were shocked at how high they were hadn't tested for a while as we were on top of water changes and everything was fine until this, and even then we wasted a month thinking it was just normal swim bladder constipation type things). i kept doing water changes but it didn't help, so i tested the tap out of curiosity, and there was the problem. My water company didn't believe me enough to investigate, so i tried nitrate removing media, plants etc. i haven't got a car to go to the fish shop and buy RO water, and there's no way i could manage it on a bus, nor could i afford to waste the amount of water RO systems use, plus i'm not allowed to mess with the plumbing etc as it's a rented flat.

ironically, the nitrate in the tap water has come down in the past couple weeks. but how can he recover from that, when now he's got rotting fins, fungus and possibly internal problems and god knows what else. And if he recovered from those things, how on earth can he recover from the original issue of nitrate poisoning when it's this far gone. :(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

hun, can you let us know the tap nitrate's exact reading? the 911+ rescue link that koko posted explains a method of treatment that they have found to work in some or most cases. now, asthetically ie, fins etc, they can all be corrected with treatment later on. but to treat the nitrate poisoning, this could be a treatment we can try on dear pedro.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

hun, can you let us know the tap nitrate's exact reading? the 911+ rescue link that koko posted explains a method of treatment that they have found to work in some or most cases. now, asthetically ie, fins etc, they can all be corrected with treatment later on. but to treat the nitrate poisoning, this could be a treatment we can try on dear pedro.

:goodpost

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

hun, can you let us know the tap nitrate's exact reading? the 911+ rescue link that koko posted explains a method of treatment that they have found to work in some or most cases. now, asthetically ie, fins etc, they can all be corrected with treatment later on. but to treat the nitrate poisoning, this could be a treatment we can try on dear pedro.

sorry should have done it in the first :(

it's coming out at about 30-35, not red but not as light an orange as 25ppm. so bizarrely actually higher than the tank :/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

it's ok hun. thanks for posting back, koko and i are discussing this now :heart

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One more question as Stakos and I figure this out. :)

What is your PH and KH out of the tap and then your tank. Im also worried cause I saw whiteness on the fish, sometime this is a ph fluctuation. And since your Nitrates are adjusting out of the tap, Im wondering if the PH and KH did to :(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok Stakos and I came up with some help hun.... Still when you can supply me with the information above :)

I would like to suggest if you can .....

Chamber Treatment: for treatment of serious injury; goldfish curled, bent or spiraling

After you've gradually removed nitrates from tank or pond it may be beneficial to proceed with the following green treatment; using the tallest container you can find; double the height of your main tank; a tall waster paper basket with a fresh liner in it perfect for this treatment, or a tall pitcher if the fish is small; let's think of this container as a chamber tank. The additional water pressure may equalize the pressure inside the fish.

Chlorophyll is used in the green treatment and bath; known as the green blood of plants. Plant nutrition is synthesized from the basic elements in their environment and from photosynthesis; which is how green plants use sunlight to synthesize food from carbon dioxide and water; producing oxygen as a result. Chlorophyll increases the oxygen levels in the red blood cells, lessoning the effects of nitrate poisoning. Fish that have been poisoned or shocked by nitrates will greatly benefit over its use.

Benefits of Chlorophyll

Picture%205%5B832%5D.jpgPremix 1 fluid ounce of liquid chlorophyll per gallon of treated water in a fresh water tub equaling the amount in portion to the size of the chamber tank. Use as much of your main tank water as possible.

The longer the fish remains in the chamber, the better, but only if proper aeration is provided. Depending on the severity of the poisoning, 1 to 3 weeks is recommended or when fish is swimming and eating normally.

Match water level or depth in chamber tank to main tank; match temperature, pH and nitrate levels within 3 degrees before relocating fish to chamber.

Position the pump close to the surface for maximum surface action. Increased oxygen levels will be very beneficial.

Place fish in chamber tank; begin filling; pouring slowly; until the container is filled or just a few inches from the top.

Keep water temps as low as possible 50 to 60 degrees first week; gradually raise temps to normal; taking a few days to do so after treatment is completed.

Perform (3) 5% (treated) water changes every day the fish remains in the chamber tank. If the pump being used doesn't have beneficial bacteria; use water treatment that eliminates chlorine, chloramines, ammonia and nitrite; treating entire amount of water in chamber. Make sure to add fresh water gradually. If the pump does have beneficial bacteria, continue feeding normally even though the fish may not be eating, so your friendly bugs don't perish.

The fish should only be returned to main tank after it resumes normal behavior; first lower depth in chamber until it matches main tank depth; take a few days to accomplish this task. If the fish exhibit signs of distress; the treatment should continue.

To avoid the risk of shock or increased injury, match nitrates, temps and pH levels in hospital tank to main tank within 3 degrees before returning fish home; this can be accomplished by performing small and frequent water changes using main tank water; taking a few hours to do so. Perform these water changes until you believe most of the chamber water has been exchanged.

Warning; if the fish remains in the chamber tank for more than a few days, your friendly bug colony may decline in the main tank. Whether or not you have other fish remaining in main tank or not, it is wise to continue feeding your normal amount. When you feed your fish, you're also feeding your friendly bugs. Keep a close watch on water parameters for the next few days; your cycle may spike.

Chlorophyll may temporarily tint light colored fish.

Keep nitrate readings in main tank at a maximum of 10 over the next few months.

If you do have high nitrates all of the fish are being affected; some more sensitive than others.

To encourage long term recovery; gradually lower temperatures in main tank to as low as 60 to 65 degrees for the next few weeks.

Follow up with a daily water change of 5% to 10% instead of weekly or biweekly changes. Keeping nitrate levels consistently low will help speed recovery. Add back fresh water gradually.

Goldfish that have been poisoned by nitrates develop extreme sensitivity to the toxin, tolerating it only at low levels

If nitrates are an ongoing problem in your tank or pond, check the nitrate levels in your tap water first and foremost; if this isn't the case; consider some or all of the following options:

1. Increase water changes; reduce stocking levels; test frequently

2. Encourage algae or plant growth; plants feed on nitrates keeping your tank or pond water safer, allowing you to change out less water; less frequently. Algae and Green Water

3. Check under ornaments and decorations for build up of waste.

4. Periodical use of water treatment that eliminates nitrates.

If you are on a well; live in a rural area; have your nitrate levels checked yearly, for your goldfish's safety and your family's too. High nitrates are often found in farming communities due to the use of fertilizers.

http://goldfish-emer....php?page_id=66

This is to get the nitrates out of the fish.

Also I would like to suggest, first to double the dose of Prime, see how the fish reacts. If the fish doesnt mind, go to 3x the dose with in 48 hours. :thumb:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good luck! I don't think I've ever seen anyone attempt this, and it's great that you guys are doing this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Koko, Helen - In awe of your knowledge and dedication. You guys rock!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One more question as Stakos and I figure this out. :)

What is your PH and KH out of the tap and then your tank. Im also worried cause I saw whiteness on the fish, sometime this is a ph fluctuation. And since your Nitrates are adjusting out of the tap, Im wondering if the PH and KH did to :(

PH out the tap is 7.4, tank is 7.4 too, both exactly the same colour.

i don't have KH test kit, but i have this about the water hardness - from the water company's website, it lets you put in your postcode and brings up test results etc... but we know how reliable they are :(

Picture1.png

i would say we have hard water for sure, the hood is often encrusted with white stuff if water gets on the top etc from splashing and is allowed to dry.

today Pedro hasn't even tried to swim. He's been in the same position all morning. He's breathing very rapidly and hard, really opening his mouth wide.

Sorry didn't get back soon, but i'm in bed when you guys are awake unfortunately lol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i saw this treatment on that article, but i never did it as i worried it was beyond my expertise and i'd end up killing him :( plus i couldn't stop the high nitrates at their source so he'd be cured, then sick, then cured and sick and so on. Now the nirates are behaving out the tap, im not sure he's strong enough to cope with all this. Relieving the water pressure by reducing the depth of the water gave him some relief, so i'm worried putting him in the chamber, with very deep water like that would be horrible for him surely? I'm not questioning you, and i hope you don't think i'm being awkward, i'm just worried about putting him through stress when he may be dying... or whether use this as the last ditch attempt and if it kills him at least we tried everything. i just can't help picture him dying alone at the bottom of a dark and lonely bin full of water and chlorophyll

how big would the container need to be for a fish of Pedro's size? i have no idea where i'd get something like that.. i guess a plastic bin wouldn't be 'food safe'. the tank is 15 inches tall, so double that would have to be 30 inches high.

i wish i had just done this in the first place instead of worrying about the tap water at the source and my experience. i'm worried we're too far gone now. :(

Ok Stakos and I came up with some help hun.... Still when you can supply me with the information above :)

I would like to suggest if you can .....

Chamber Treatment: for treatment of serious injury; goldfish curled, bent or spiraling

After you've gradually removed nitrates from tank or pond it may be beneficial to proceed with the following green treatment; using the tallest container you can find; double the height of your main tank; a tall waster paper basket with a fresh liner in it perfect for this treatment, or a tall pitcher if the fish is small; let's think of this container as a chamber tank. The additional water pressure may equalize the pressure inside the fish.

Chlorophyll is used in the green treatment and bath; known as the green blood of plants. Plant nutrition is synthesized from the basic elements in their environment and from photosynthesis; which is how green plants use sunlight to synthesize food from carbon dioxide and water; producing oxygen as a result. Chlorophyll increases the oxygen levels in the red blood cells, lessoning the effects of nitrate poisoning. Fish that have been poisoned or shocked by nitrates will greatly benefit over its use.

Benefits of Chlorophyll

Picture%205%5B832%5D.jpgPremix 1 fluid ounce of liquid chlorophyll per gallon of treated water in a fresh water tub equaling the amount in portion to the size of the chamber tank. Use as much of your main tank water as possible.

The longer the fish remains in the chamber, the better, but only if proper aeration is provided. Depending on the severity of the poisoning, 1 to 3 weeks is recommended or when fish is swimming and eating normally.

Match water level or depth in chamber tank to main tank; match temperature, pH and nitrate levels within 3 degrees before relocating fish to chamber.

Position the pump close to the surface for maximum surface action. Increased oxygen levels will be very beneficial.

Place fish in chamber tank; begin filling; pouring slowly; until the container is filled or just a few inches from the top.

Keep water temps as low as possible 50 to 60 degrees first week; gradually raise temps to normal; taking a few days to do so after treatment is completed.

Perform (3) 5% (treated) water changes every day the fish remains in the chamber tank. If the pump being used doesn't have beneficial bacteria; use water treatment that eliminates chlorine, chloramines, ammonia and nitrite; treating entire amount of water in chamber. Make sure to add fresh water gradually. If the pump does have beneficial bacteria, continue feeding normally even though the fish may not be eating, so your friendly bugs don't perish.

The fish should only be returned to main tank after it resumes normal behavior; first lower depth in chamber until it matches main tank depth; take a few days to accomplish this task. If the fish exhibit signs of distress; the treatment should continue.

To avoid the risk of shock or increased injury, match nitrates, temps and pH levels in hospital tank to main tank within 3 degrees before returning fish home; this can be accomplished by performing small and frequent water changes using main tank water; taking a few hours to do so. Perform these water changes until you believe most of the chamber water has been exchanged.

Warning; if the fish remains in the chamber tank for more than a few days, your friendly bug colony may decline in the main tank. Whether or not you have other fish remaining in main tank or not, it is wise to continue feeding your normal amount. When you feed your fish, you're also feeding your friendly bugs. Keep a close watch on water parameters for the next few days; your cycle may spike.

Chlorophyll may temporarily tint light colored fish.

Keep nitrate readings in main tank at a maximum of 10 over the next few months.

If you do have high nitrates all of the fish are being affected; some more sensitive than others.

To encourage long term recovery; gradually lower temperatures in main tank to as low as 60 to 65 degrees for the next few weeks.

Follow up with a daily water change of 5% to 10% instead of weekly or biweekly changes. Keeping nitrate levels consistently low will help speed recovery. Add back fresh water gradually.

Goldfish that have been poisoned by nitrates develop extreme sensitivity to the toxin, tolerating it only at low levels

If nitrates are an ongoing problem in your tank or pond, check the nitrate levels in your tap water first and foremost; if this isn't the case; consider some or all of the following options:

1. Increase water changes; reduce stocking levels; test frequently

2. Encourage algae or plant growth; plants feed on nitrates keeping your tank or pond water safer, allowing you to change out less water; less frequently. Algae and Green Water

3. Check under ornaments and decorations for build up of waste.

4. Periodical use of water treatment that eliminates nitrates.

If you are on a well; live in a rural area; have your nitrate levels checked yearly, for your goldfish's safety and your family's too. High nitrates are often found in farming communities due to the use of fertilizers.

http://goldfish-emer....php?page_id=66

This is to get the nitrates out of the fish.

Also I would like to suggest, first to double the dose of Prime, see how the fish reacts. If the fish doesnt mind, go to 3x the dose with in 48 hours. :thumb:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

sorry forgot to add, i have been generous with my prime dosing the past few times in the past couple weeks, usually about double or even triple, it hasn't made any difference to Pedro, no worse, no better

Edited by miss_mystra

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

hun, you would use a rinsed liner to line the bin with. as pedro isn't moving, he doesn't need the swimming space, we can stick to the min 10-15 gallons. koko and i discussed this at length today.. we went over every post you made several times and conclude to the best of our knowledge as well as information that is available to us online and in medical books that your fish is suffering nitrate poisoning. all symptoms keep leading us there. unfortunately, this to the best of our knowledge seems to be the only treatment available for Nitrate poisoning.

hun, i have NEVER had to go down this road, so i can't tell you how successful it is. i understand and sympathize with you where you feel bad for he may die in a very dark space away from your love and care. it's a risk i would take given that others have had hit and miss results. thing is, he will never be "just a fish" to you and i or anyone on this forum, so the decision will be made by you and come from the heart.

if you decide, like most other treatments, it can go either way, we can't guarantee a successful result, it will be ideal that he does survive it, but if not, i feel you/we have done everything possible to find a resolution.

we're here for you :heart

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

hun, you would use a rinsed liner to line the bin with. as pedro isn't moving, he doesn't need the swimming space, we can stick to the min 10-15 gallons. koko and i discussed this at length today.. we went over every post you made several times and conclude to the best of our knowledge as well as information that is available to us online and in medical books that your fish is suffering nitrate poisoning. all symptoms keep leading us there. unfortunately, this to the best of our knowledge seems to be the only treatment available for Nitrate poisoning.

hun, i have NEVER had to go down this road, so i can't tell you how successful it is. i understand and sympathize with you where you feel bad for he may die in a very dark space away from your love and care. it's a risk i would take given that others have had hit and miss results. thing is, he will never be "just a fish" to you and i or anyone on this forum, so the decision will be made by you and come from the heart.

if you decide, like most other treatments, it can go either way, we can't guarantee a successful result, it will be ideal that he does survive it, but if not, i feel you/we have done everything possible to find a resolution.

we're here for you :heart

thanks Stakos, you guys have been my rock throughout this, and i'm so grateful :heart

He has perked up a little, making more attempts to swim and loop the loop as he does. his tail is looking weird up close, i think the slime coat is going crazy and bits of slime is blobbing off.

i'm going to think about this over the weekend, hopefully i will make the right choice. He upset me earlier when i dropped in a smidge of food, it just landed on him, he didn't even look at it. so sad :(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
:heart:bighug: post back anytime you want our thoughts on this ok? you're not alone :hug

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

:heart:bighug: post back anytime you want our thoughts on this ok? you're not alone :hug

thanks Stakos, had a bit of a scare this morning, he had wedged in the gap between the two filters and was facing nose up, but from walking in the room i thought he'd gone, but he was still the same!

he's losing a lot of scales, even though there's nothing to hurt himself on :( they are just dropping out. would the chlorophyll hurt him where he's missing scales? you can see the bits where they've fell off now. when i found a load of them the other day you couldn't see where they'd come from but now enough have come off to be able to tell. i guess there are scale-less fish so it should be ok right? i'm just so worried he's in pain :(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

actually, that drug will most likely help him.. here is an internet search, read the entire document:

http://www.energiseforlife.com/wordpress/2009/02/11/health-benefits-of-liquid-chlorophyll/

i don't believe fish hurt when they lose scales per se, i guess depending on the circumstances.. if they scraped them off somehow and there was an open wound, they may be sore from the wound and or infection, but not from the scales loss. fish lose scales quite often, some do and some don't grow back.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

actually, that drug will most likely help him.. here is an internet search, read the entire document:

http://www.energisef...id-chlorophyll/

i don't believe fish hurt when they lose scales per se, i guess depending on the circumstances.. if they scraped them off somehow and there was an open wound, they may be sore from the wound and or infection, but not from the scales loss. fish lose scales quite often, some do and some don't grow back.

that's good to know, thank you :)

i've also found an interesting bt of info about safe plastics to house fish in... from link removed

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galaxy

have you checked that the bin wont leach anything? A good point to ask...........all plastics will have a little number inside a triangle made of arrows......

Number 1 Plastics -- PET or PETE (polyethylene terephthalate)

* Found In: Soft drinks, water and beer bottles; mouthwash bottles; peanut butter containers; salad dressing and vegetable oil containers; ovenable food trays.

It poses low risk of leaching breakdown products. This material is in high demand by remanufacturers.

Number 2 Plastics -- HDPE (high density polyethylene)

* Found In: Milk jugs, squash bottles; bleach, detergent and household cleaner bottles; shampoo bottles; rubish and shopping bags; motor oil bottles; butter and yogurt tubs; cereal box liners

HDPE carries low risk of leaching and is readily recyclable into many goods.

Number 3 Plastics -- V (Vinyl) or PVC

* Found In: Window cleaner and detergent bottles, shampoo bottles, cooking oil bottles, clear food packaging, wire jacketing, medical equipment, siding, windows, piping

PVC contains chlorine, so its manufacture can release highly dangerous dioxins. If you must cook with PVC, don't let the plastic touch food. Never burn PVC, because it releases toxins.

Number 4 Plastics -- LDPE (low density polyethylene)

* Found In: Squeezable bottles; bread, frozen food, dry cleaning and shopping bags; tote bags; clothing; furniture; carpet

Not traditionally recycled - but becoming more acceptable.

Number 5 Plastics -- PP (polypropylene)

* Found In: Some yogurt containers, syrup bottles, ketchup bottles, caps, straws, medicine bottles

Polypropylene has a high melting point, and so is often chosen for containers that must accept hot liquid. It is gradually becoming more accepted by recyclers.

Number 6 Plastics -- PS (polystyrene)

* Found In: Disposable plates and cups, meat trays, egg cartons, carry-out containers, aspirin bottles, compact disc cases

Polystyrene can be made into rigid or foam products . Evidence suggests polystyrene can leach potential toxins into foods.

Number 7 Plastics -- Miscellaneous

* Found In: Three- and five-gallon water bottles, 'bullet-proof' materials, sunglasses, DVDs, iPod and computer cases, signs and displays, certain food containers, nylon

do not reuse #1 plastics and do not expose #7 plastics to high heat

so if i can find a tub made of the right stuff, i wont need liner, which is good because i am no where near anywhere that sells them! my tub with the de-nitrate filter is fine to use but although it's big enough its not tall enough, it's only about the same height as the tank.

Now that i know that this treatment wont sting or hurt him in anyway makes me feel better.

One worry is that he's going have to be treated for this forever if having nitrate poisoning leaves him so sensitive to it. A lot of fish keepers in London complain of high nitrates in the tap water, even at acceptable levels he's going to be affected, and need this treatment for weeks at a time. i'm just worried that even if by some slim chance we cure him he's going to be susceptible forever, and the treatment is no doubt stressful for him.

Edited by stakos
link removal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
  • Create New...