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Smokey has a new white spot...what to do now :(


Kayla102968

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Hi Shelly, I am so excited to get them all moved over to the 125 gallon. It's ready to go when they are. I'm also a little nervous since Elmo and Sparky have been growing like crazy and been so healthy and happy lately...I'm scared to change anything in case I stress them out and another problem arises. I want to make sure that Smokey is going to be healthy before I move him into the 125 gallon. I now have to do w/c's on the 45 long every 2nd day at least. It has 2 AC110's on it but one of them is brand new and the AC70 that I used in the QT tank has probably also lost its cycle being in the fungus cure treatment. When I move them to the 125 gallon I'll have 2 new AC110's and the original AC110 so I will probably be doing a lot of w/c's on the 125 gallon at first. I did get an Aqueon 50 waterchanger but unfortunately our water pressure out of the tap is not very strong and it will take forever to change 50% of the 125 gallon...and also to refill. I can't wait to give them the room they need though...I hope it all works out soon :)

Imo - Thank you so much for all your help...I hope that Smokey can heal himself now...I'm quite worried that he won't start eating even in the main tank. I see what you mean about him "chewing"...I thought he was just breathing heavy because of the meds.

Smokey looks quite skinny now, so I decided I'm going to move him back to the main tank early tomorrow morning before my husband goes to work (around 5:30 am). 9:30 am would be 96 hours in treatment, so I figure that 92 hours should be fine as well. I just hope he is able to reunite easily with Sparky and Elmo...they just seem so much more bulky and fast now :( compared to him. Here is tonight's video of Smokey:

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Smokey is back in with Elmo and Sparky. I've fed them and there was plenty of food to go around and nobody was pushing him away, but he still is uninterested in the food. I tried soaking some in garlic...but that didn't help either. He swims up to the top of the tank a lot. I feel helpless to make him feel better...any suggestions on what I could try feeding him to get him to eat again? So far I've tried Thera A NLS pellets and Jump Start. Here is the video: http://youtu.be/z0yzSdlgzxY

Thanks,

Kayla

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Smokey didn't eat all day :( . I don't think he's going to make it. I think he must have columnaris and he's too far gone. He spends about 80% of his time at the top of the tank. I did a w/c last night on the tank...and I'll do another one tonight. I feel so bad for him. I don't want him to starve to death and I also don't want him to have troubles breathing...but I do want to give him every chance to survive. He does seem very weak but the other fish are not bothering him. I also noticed that his colour has gone from brownish orange to almost black...I wonder if that is because he is sick or if him having little light on for 4 days caused him to change colour? I checked his water every day in the QT so it was not caused by ammonia.

Here is his evening video...if there is anything you think I can do to help him at this point...I'd welcome any suggestions. I'm going to put more air bubbles in the tank too to help him.

Here is a photo of him...you can see inside his mouth here and their appears to be some black colour inside...but I don't know if that is just his colouration or what. http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i322/Kayla102968/IMG_3722.jpg

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I added more air to the tank and Smokey is spending less time at the top now and his colour isn't as dark. Elmo also likes to go to the top where the oil and garlic juice from the food hangs out. If it wasn't for him looking weaker, the nose and side marks, and him not eating...I would not even think he was sick. His dorsal fin is still up.

If this was your fish...what would you do? Would you wait longer. Would you try any other meds? Would you move him into quarantine? He just seems so much happier with his buddies. Could you suggest something to encourage him to eat so he doesn't just starve to death (maybe some frozen blood worms)? I've never fed my fish anything but pellets and peas...so I'm not sure what else I could try that might help him start eating. I really want to do what is best for Smokey. Do you think he still has a chance? Please give me any suggestions...I would really appreciate it.

Also, can someone give me specific direction on his size (4 inches not including tail) for a painless euthanasia...i.e. how much oil of cloves etc. just in case I need it? I hate to even think about it...but I definitely don't want him to suffer :(.

Thanks,

Kayla

Here is a video from today.

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Kayla, your concerns for your fish do you credit, but don't panic! :) Other than the white spots, Smokey looks fine. I know he hasn't eaten, but that could be the stress of the medication, and being moved. Keep in mind that fish can go without food for a couple of weeks. For now, do as you have been doing, and hopefully he will start eating soon. If this goes on for too long, then we can try some other method to get food in him.

How are the spots compared to before treatment?

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Thanks Alex for responding and the pep talk...panic is my middle name, especially when it comes to sick animals (since they can't talk). I really think he still has columnaris though. Those lesions on his side are greyish white and the one on his nose looks like a grey area surrounding a small, pure white, pimple-looking thing. I'm concerned that he is not eating as this is one of the symptoms of Columnaris of the mouth area. At this afternoon's feeding he looked actually excited about the food falling in front of him, grabbed a piece and just spit it out...then he didn't try again. If it is Columnaris then what about treating with Maracyn and Maracyn 2? I don't want him to go without eating for more time...but if he's not eating because of his mouth, he won't survive anyway right? I want to make sure that I just don't leave things go and then it gets completely too late to treat. He seems to have trouble keeping steady in the tank, like he is working really hard to stop himself from moving in the current or sinking.

Here is a clearer video of his nose and side area from this afternoon:

.

I hope you can see that the nose area has a large grey area and then a white dot right in the middle...it is so hard to get a good video of it.

Thanks again,

Kayla

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wow...how does a tank go from 0 to 0.5 ammonia in less than 24 hours? There is no nitrites and nitrates are around 20. Looks like we are doing w/c's every day again now...can't love that. Could 0.5 ammonia be reason for yawning?

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It's possible, as yawning is the physical reaction in an attempt to relieve irritated gills.

The increased ammonia could come from several sources: 1) increased ammonia secretions by the sick/distressed fish, 2) increased waste from excess food/feeding and rotting plants.

For now, double up on Prime, wait until ammonia reaches 0.5 or so before doing the WCs.

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When you take a fish out of a tank - the beneficial bacteria die off to accomodate the reduced needs of the tank's occupants. When you replace or add a fish they then struggle to regrow...there can be acycle bump so you need to add more media/check params constantly and w/c.

I think you did right to return him and the extra bubbles are very important. Darkening of skin color can be due to lack of dissolved oxygen, those disinfectant meds (which also by the way should work on columnaris) really do use up the oxygen in the water because they are oxidants. That is how they work.

He needs sustained time in stable, familiar comfort zone. Massive aeration. And a strong cycle. I'm not sure why he isn't eating, the black in his throat could just be the picture or possibly a staining after effect of the meds.

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Thanks Imo, I feel better knowing that the Anti-fungal meds would also help columnaris. Smokey looks better now tonight. He is almost back to his old colour and the spot on his nose looks better. He seems to be perking up a bit (not as sluggish).

Maybe I'm feeding too much food trying to get Smokey to eat and that is causing the higher ammonia. Would it help to add either some "nutrafin cycle" or "one and only"...or will that just cause too many nitrites then?

Alex - thanks for the info on just adding Prime and skipping the w/c for tonight...in my panic, I already did a 50% w/c with prime...but I will remember that info for the future.

Thanks everyone for sticking with me...I just get so nervous when it comes to my own sick animals. It is very stressful.

I was accepted at Vet school and decided against it, since I got married instead and didn't want to be away from my husband for 4 years. That is now looking like a very wise decision on my part..lol.

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Lol. Yes I think Vets do really have to be quite tough. I know I couldn't do it :( I did work with a vet as an assistant for a period of about 6 months on and off, it was so hard for me. I think you need to remember too, that single tail fish especially can survive quite some time without food. In ponds for example they last months..I know they have algae and so on but over wintering...I would try something like brine shrimp that floats at the top and then falls or krill....these are foods that smell very strong and attractive to fish and are easy to swallow too. They are tiny.

Most important is to keep the water ammonia free as this can really put a weaker fish off his food.

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I have a video from today of Smokey. He is spending a lot of time at the surface of the water. He does swim around a little but not very fast like Elmo and Sparky do. I did get some frozen spirulina brine shrimp (Kyorin brand from PetSmart) and put one block cut into small pieces in the tank. Smokey grabbed at one piece and spit it out and then he yawned. He didn't try again after that. I tried a second block later in the day and again he did not try any. Today I put 3/4 of a block in (in small pieces) and he did not go for it. The other 2 fish are going crazy for it though. Should I try just plain brine shrimp with no spirulina? Would krill be better maybe?

How often can I try the frozen brine shrimp and krill (once a day, one block...how many days a week)?

He still has the white marks on his side...they are smaller though. His nose looks like it has no white left...just a greyish colour.

Here is the video:

I wish I could just get everyone in the 125 gallon soon :( ...Elmo is getting so large and I know he would love the swim room.

Thanks,

Kayla

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Kayla, it says the video is unavailable...

It seems to me as though he may have some irritation in his mouth, and is spitting food that causes further irritation. Have you tried frozen blood worms? The only thing is that if you do get some, get the Hikari brand. To entice you, you could soak it in garlic juice first.

What are the tank parameters today?

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The tank parameters were 0,0, and 10 - 20 nitrate last night after feeding the brine shrimp. I haven't tested today yet. The video should be good now. I'll see if the lfs has blood worms today..are hikari brand frozen as well?

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Yes, the reason why I suggest Hikari is because I think that brand consistently has very reliable products. Frozen blood worms have the potential to carry pathogens, and the Hikari processing methods kills these pathogens. Nevertheless, when you do feed, always avoid worms that are not red :)

Thanks for posting the parameters. Did you check pH? I looked at the video, and I think he looks much better. There does seem to be a bit of fin clamping. I'm sure Trinket will stop by today and give you her assessment :)

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The bloodworms come in these size cubes, right?

http://www.fishfishfish.biz/nopCommerce/Products/73-hikari-blood-worms-35oz.aspx

If so, I would feed 1/2 cube at one sitting, and then the other half you can refrigerate and feed the next day, I believe.

I always thaw mine out first in some tank water :)

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Nope...it is in 2 flat packs inside a main package. Here is a pic...the first one shows the label and the second one shows the bag:

http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i322/Kayla102968/IMG_3781.jpg

http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i322/Kayla102968/IMG_3777.jpg

Is this still okay?

Thanks,

Kayla

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Gotcha! It's absolutely OK. You were right originally. A chunk the size of a dime should be just perfect for the 3 of them. Make sure it's thawed.

Also, don't feed this too too often, since too much high protein is not necessarily good. For now though, it's soft enough that hopefully Smokey will not have any issues with it.

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Tried the bloodworms and Smokey ate 1 worm...sheesh. I don't think he spit it out, although it was at the top where all the many bubbles are, so I can't be sure.

Here is a video from today...you will notice Smokey yawn at the end...then 2 seconds later Elmo yawned on the other side of the tank. Sparky does not yawn, so it does concern me a little that both Smokey and Elmo do. I just rewatched the video and noticed that Sparky yawned in it too. My water readings aren't that bad...why are they yawning?

The water parameters at the time of the video were: ammonia - 0 - 0.25, nitrites: 0 and nitrates: 20-40, oh and pH was 8.2. Do you think I should do a w/c tonight?

Also, can I feed them pellet food tonight, or do I need to stick to blood worms for the rest of the day?

Thanks,

Kayla

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Smokey ate about 3 more bloodworms tonight and then at his last feeding actually ate five 3mm NLS pellets soaked in garlic....yay Smokey! He still is doing a little bit of the clamped fins and tail. I did do a 50% w/c since I figure I'll err on the side of "too clean" until Smokey gets better. It was nice to see him do a little bit of the "wiggle dance" for food tonight when I approached the tank. His nose spot has gone darker in colour...almost black now. I'm not sure if that is a good thing or not though.

I'll update again tomorrow...I sure hope he keeps improving :)

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