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Smokey has a new white spot...what to do now :(


Kayla102968

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He'll have to be in the QT tank right to medicate? So I will have to put my AC70 from the main tank over to the 20 gallon long and put a new AC110 in the tank with Sparky and Elmo... with the AC110 already in there. I won't be able to get the medication until tomorrow now.

I am going to leave him in the main tank tonight since it is stressful for him to be moved, and move him into the QT tomorrow.

I sure hope he makes it :(

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Okay hun :heart He will make it so long as he is in reasonable health (= not bottom sitting/floating or refusing to eat) before the med QT. I think he was stressed with the dip and got worse so leaving him overnight as is sounds good!

Set the QT up ready to go for when you get the meds. Look for any mediaction that contains one of the greens (they are all the sameish as long as they have the word green in). If you cant find what I recommended above.

Salt is good to ward this off and works on very minor cases, once it gets worse you need the Green. And it does work so don't worry too much :hug He is a sweet fish, I am really attached to him too!!!!! We will do our best for him!! :heart

How soon can you do this?

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Petsmart was still open so I grabbed their last box of API fungus cure. It has 3 mg of Victoria Green B and 30 mg Acriflavine per packet. It says to add 1 packet per 10 gallons, but in my 20 gallon long I can really only have 15 gallons before it gets too high in the tank. Can I measure out a half of a packet? It also says to remove activated carbon or filter cartridge from filter and continue aeration. So do I remove all the insides (sponge and ceramic balls) of the AC70 and just let it run empty?

Then it says to repeat dose after 48 hours and then in another 48 hours I need to change 25% of the aquarium water and add fresh activated carbon or replace filter cartridge.

My concerns are...will not having a filtration system for 4 days in 15 gallons of water be unreasonable to be able to do? Do I feed him less then?

Here is the online directions:

http://www.petguys.com/-317163160160.html

Thanks for all your help.

Do you think I should still wait until tomorrow morning to start him in the medication and move him to QT, it will be lights out for them in about 1/2 hour.

Kayla

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First of all, well done getting those meds. Good choice.

Next..the directions are for a cycled tank.

He will not be in a cycled tank so you can disregard the "replace carbon". Actually you can just chuck all the water and return him home after treatment :)

As for the filter. The main thing you need to be aware of is the fact that these meds all consume an enormous amount of oxygen. Just the way they work. So the #1 priority is to get lots of aeration going. You also need to cover the tub so he feels like its night time, dim light anyway. This actually reduces stress hormones making the meds more effective.

The filter: You need some media. NOT carbon but other media. What do you have besides carbon and filter cartridge? If you have nothing else, then I suggest you add a handful or two of gravel to the tank and maybe a little into the filter if it doesnt stop the impellor/motor..not familiar with your filter type.

Exact dosage is very important with disinfect type meds. If you have 15 gallons then don't you need 2/3rd dosage ?...*bad at math

I cant say if you should start now...whenever you feel ready and calm and have the time to set up properly and measure well. Smokey will be ok overnight but on the other hand sooner is better....hmm.

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It says one packet for 10 gallons...so in 15 gallons he needs 1 plus another half packet. If I put 20 gallons in my 20 gallon long tank, it would be right up to the very top. My filter is coming from the main tank...it has a sponge (mechanical filtration) and ceramic beads (biological filtration). So the sponge and ceramic beads won't hold up the Victoria green meds? They will pass right through?

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Oh okay so if you cant get more meds could you do 10 gallons in there or will the filter not reach?

Yes the ceramic beads are perfect. Not the floss type mechanical (carbon, floss) filtration as that will absorb the medication as it passes through.

Its the kind of medication that disintegrates over time so the first 12 hours are max effective and then slowly it degrades...so I would want to be "on watch" for some of that first 12 hour period.

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So the sponge (from the AC70 filter) can also stay in there or should that be removed too?

Is 10 gallons enough water for 4 days? Or can I do a water change in between the 4 days (and just add more medication)...or do I just feed lightly so ammonia/nitrite/nitrate levels don't go high?

The package comes with 10 packets and each packet does 10 gallons.

I guess I'm confused since I'm not sure how an uncycled low volume QT tank is going to be able to withstand no w/c's for 4 days. If I need to do a w/c can I do it after 2 days and then put the next dose in?

One more question...do I just dissolve the packet powder directly into the tank or do I premix it in a cup of water before adding it in. This will be more of a concern on the second dose since Smokey will be already in the tank before I put the second dose in.

Thanks,

Kayla

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So the sponge (from the AC70 filter) can also stay in there or should that be removed too?

Is 10 gallons enough water for 4 days? Or can I do a water change in between the 4 days (and just add more medication)...or do I just feed lightly so ammonia/nitrite/nitrate levels don't go high?

The package comes with 10 packets and each packet does 10 gallons.

I guess I'm confused since I'm not sure how an uncycled low volume QT tank is going to be able to withstand no w/c's for 4 days. If I need to do a w/c can I do it after 2 days and then put the next dose in?

One more question...do I just dissolve the packet powder directly into the tank or do I premix it in a cup of water before adding it in. This will be more of a concern on the second dose since Smokey will be already in the tank before I put the second dose in.

Thanks,

Kayla

Okay so you could theoretically use 2 packets in 20 gallons at one go and then pick up some more meds...

The sponge is sort of okay. Technically some sponge types absorb more than others...if its very tight knit spnge for example it will soak up more meds and if its a looser weave the meds will pass through easily..

Yes I always do water changes in between meds and re-figure the dosage. Almost all med instructions assume that you are treating a whole tank of fish in their own tank. For some obscure reason, fish medication makers have not caught on to the idea that people QT their fish to medicate :/

You need to dissolve the powder into a small paper or plastic/glass cup of tank water before mixing it in :)

Check the water params daily. Even with meds ammonia and nitrite will read accurately.

If you see either you need to water change. Hopefully the filter will hold the cycle for at least the first 12 hours and hopefully the full 48 for one course. Feed as normal. I totally believe in feeding sick fish!! If they will eat, feed them up. They need the nutritional boost.

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Here is Smokey in his QT tank with matched pH and temperature to main tank (Prime added & BIU) as well as API fungus cure.

I noticed in the QT tank that he has a new long mark up by his backbone on his right side. I sure hope this is fungus and we can get him fixed...he looks awful :( .

Can I leave him with no lights all day and night long, or should I have some low light during the day? Will he eat with no lights on?

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Smokey update: Smokey hasn't eaten in his new QT tank. I tried soaking pellets in garlic juice and he is just not interested. Then I had to take the pellets out using a turkey baster and lost about 16 oz of tank water. Is there anything that is safe to put in the tank and leave there for a few hours without it totally disintegrating and producing ammonia levels?

He is spending a lot of time where the filter water pours out of the filter, but there is tons of aeration at the top of the tank, so I'm not sure what he is doing.

I'll post another video when I can.

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He's swimming around which is a good sign.

Has he eaten yet? Quite right to take old pellets and food out, those can turn nasty so fast and wreck his appetite too.

I can't really think of any food that keeps in water. He will be okay without food for the 24 hrs.

I would leave the lights dim like this the whole treatment. It makes the medication work much better so you won't have to repeat it as many times.

Have you seen any improvement/healing in any of the sore places?

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Ugggh, I just tested the water and it has between 0.25 and 0.5 ammonia level, 0 nitrite and 5 nitrate. So it looks like I'll have to do a w/c tonight??, but then if I take out 10 gallons of his 15 gallons I will have to add in another pack of medication and then it will be at a stronger level again (if it loses it's potency after being in there for 24 hours)...so confusing. Can you suggest what I should do?

He still hasn't eaten and it is hard to see what the sores look like in that green water...I'll take another video tonight and see what it looks like.

Do you think it could still be a columnaris infection...it definitely looks like sores now.

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It's more important to have zero ammonia. I would add more meds.

Columnaris is fuzzy. It is unmistakeably fuzzy and soft- looking like fluff. There is usually a white pimple somewhere that remains small and does not grow and has a tip to it. That doesn't sound like the white sore on Smokeys mouth initially..the fins are usually badly affected and there is a definite yellowing necrosis at fin bases and in the "armpit" area. It usually works its way up from the peduncle to the gills with sore places presenting in that order.This looks different to me.

I would stay with the meds and get as much aearation going as you can. These kind of medications can absorb as much as 70% of available dissolved oxygen in teh water. Increasing that -if you can- may help him get some appetite back.

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I changed out 10 gallons of his 15 gallons of water and replaced one packet of meds (for 10 gallons of water). It looks a lot darker green in there again.

Do you think I could be getting an incorrect reading of ammonia due to the green colour of the water? He hasn't even eaten anything. I wonder if just 20 minutes of being in the water can cause food to produce ammonia levels in the tank. Should I take it out immediately if he doesn't eat it?

His white spot on his nose did have a raised column shaped area with a white ball at the end of it (that was why I initially thought it might be a fungus). It did not look like a cottony consistency though.

When I first put in the API fungus cure his spots on his side look much worse because the white areas on them darken with the green medication colour. Then when the medication colour gets less in the tank, they start to look a little less noticeable. I'm concerned with all the w/c's that the medication will always be at a strong level...I hope he can handle it.

Do I have to worry about the water that I take out of the tank that has the Victoria green chemical in it? Is it safe to put in the yard, down the sink??? I know it says something about being carcogenic.

Well I hope he will start eating tomorrow. I can't put anymore aeration in the tank really since the whole top of the water is already filled with bubbles and I want to make sure he also has a spot to get away from the aeration current if he needs to.

I'll update again tomorrow.

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Okay. I think you are doing your best for him!

The Green meds are a bit nasty as they do stain. You should wear gloves to dispose of it outside in the yard. It's a chemical like a disinfectant~ actually a copper based dye . It kills quite a few bacteria and funguses ~ it could also be flushed in the bathroom safely :)

Yes that is exactly what happens, the sore areas pick up the green and look bright for a while. The meds should "attach" like that. If he starts to bottom sit, the meds have gotten too strong...you need to observe him. He should be okay..usually fish will bottom sit immediately if the meds are too strong for them.

Medication should not really affect the ammonia reading. It can affect pH however. I suspect he is actually releasing quite a bit of ammonia under stress + food will release a little if left too.

Hoping for updates and better news. Hang in there Smokey. You are a tough fish and treatment will soon be over :heart

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Today is Smokey's second day in the QT and second day of API fungus cure. He still has not eaten since being in the QT. Of course when he was in the QT tank earlier on when he just had the spot on his nose he stopped eating then too and so I put him back in the main tank on the 2nd day. He immediately started eating on his return to the main tank. Will he die if he doesn't eat at all in 4 days? It is very concerning to me that he won't eat :( . I don't even like to be in the same room as his tank since he distresses me so much. He just looks so sad.

His tank parameters tonight were: ammonia: 0 - 0.25, nitrite: 0 and nitrates: 5. I have to change the water in the main tank and I think I'm going to leave his tank alone tonight. For one, I don't want to stress him out and I also don't want to have to add in another strong dose of fungus cure. Plus my tap water often has 0.25 ammonia in it to begin with, I will add a small amount of Prime to his tank tonight. Tomorrow night I will add another dose with his water change. Then he will be done Thursday morning.

He still has the white mark on his nose although it looks a little smaller. He also still has the white/dark marks on his right side. I leave all the lights off most of the day, accept I turn on the room light to let him try and eat. He doesn't even look at the food...he is very stressed. His dorsal fin is still upright though.

Here is tonights video...

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I think he looks better, Kayla! Fins crossed!

Even though of course it would be good if he eats, the truth is that he can go for longer than a week and be OK. So, for now, I would try to feed him, but don't stress out too much or panic that he isn't. Just focus on finishing treatment and having him healed :)

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Hey Kayla just stopping in to show my support :) I think the spot by smokey s nose does look better :) I know having a sick fish sure is distressing but your doing such a good job with him and having Alex and Trinket at your side is aces :) looking forward to your next update I am sure it will be good news :) hang in there :)

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Thanks Shelly :)

Yes...I agree...I'm glad I have Trinket and Alex helping me through this :)

I have a question about the API fungal cure dosing.

I was supposed to follow this schedule:

Start: Add 1.5 packets to his 15 gallons of water and wait 48 hours. Then add another 1.5 packets to his tank and wait 48 hours. Then do a 25% w/c. And that was it.

Unfortunately I had to do a water change within the first 12 hours (ammonia got too high)...so I took out 10 of his 15 gallons and added back 1 packet of API fungal cure. Now it has been 48 hours since I added that last packet of meds. I want to change out 10 gallons of water again. My question is...Do I add back in 1.5 packets of meds now? Then on Thursday at 9:30 am he should be done with the meds right? (That would be 96 hours from when I started). Does he need to stay longer though since the directions are based on me keeping him in the same tank and only doing a 25% w/c. Is that because only a small amount of the medication would be left? Hmmmm...very confusing with using a QT and doing w/c's.

The other concern I have is if he is not fully healed up and still has the white mark on his nose and the marks on his sides...can he go back with the others? I really don't want him separated from the main tank too much longer, since he does not eat in the QT. However, I also don't want to risk the other 2 fish catching something or Smokey being too weak while in with the others now.

Any thoughts on any of this are very much welcomed.

I'll post a video later tonight...he hasn't been moving around too much today, but his dorsal fin is still perky.

Thanks,

Kayla

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Can you post parameters for today, Kayla? We will be able to decide from there.

Also, depending on his condition at the end of the treatment, it may be that we need to extend treatment, but this is something probably best left to Trinket to consider :)

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Kayla, I think you are on track. I don't know that the meds are going to completely cure every speck of this. His immunity can once the worst has gone. It does seem there has been some improvemnt.

I do not think it's a problem returning him since all your fish have been exposed to this already. It's too late to stop that. However, dermal diseases are not usually caught by fish with a strong immune response. The purpose of isolation to medicate was to avoid medicating your main tank and therefore crash your cycle for sure (as these meds always do). I agree he should eat and will when he is not stressed- aka, back in his home.

I think you should continue till Thursday as you are on track to do, and return him then.

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Thanks Trinket :)

Here is Smokey's video from after his w/c and addition of another full dose of API fungal cure. I think his sores on his side look better...of course the water is a lot greener now so it's harder to see. He still hasn't eaten so I'm looking forward to Thursday and getting him back in the main tank :) . I think I will wait until Thursday night though to move him back, since that will be 48 hours from this last dose we just did.

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Looking much better :D. I would say the skin issues are cured.

The spot on his mouth could be something different that has not responded to this treatment however. I'm a little concerned he is "chewing" as fish can do that when they have some growths inside their mouths. However it could also be a reaction and dislike of the taste of the medication in the water. All meds have a taste and it is never pleasant.

Let's see how he is in the main tank. You may still need to do a mouth swab with HP but let's see if he will eat again in the main tank first on Thursday. Hopefully he will and if he does, you may not need to do that swab at all :)

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