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Smokey has a new white spot...what to do now :(


Kayla102968

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Woke up this morning (last night did a 60% w/c) and Smokey has a new white spot on his right side. There is one dark scale and then a greyish, white coating surrounding it. Here is the video, I hope you can see it.

Thanks,

Kayla

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Okay I see it :).

Is it possible to set up a QT and do a water born treatment? Or actually if you felt confident a dip in abucket for 20 mins with some disinfectant type meds might be best. I am thinking this is skin/dermal and that the antibiotic foods treat internal stuff best and given his good swimming behavior he is strong enough to handle a quick dip or if you prefer a water born longer soak in a QT...

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Woke up this morning (last night did a 60% w/c) and Smokey has a new white spot on his right side. There is one dark scale and then a greyish, white coating surrounding it. Here is the video, I hope you can see it:

Here is a photo: http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i322/Kayla102968/Goldfish/IMG_3656.jpg

Now what should I do? Does this mean it is columnaris, or fungal in nature? Any help would be appreciated...I am getting the 125 gallon tank ready to go and I would love to have Smokey healthy soon.

Thanks,

Kayla

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Hi Kayla, Trinket had responded to the original thread, and if I may make a suggestion, I recommend that we keep to that one thread, as the problem is a continuation of what has been going on. That way, we have it in one tidy place. :)

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If it's okay with you Kayla I will merge the threads :)

I know the other thread was getting lost with all the new posts and threads and also got quite long but as Alex says the history is important so maybe it's best we join them up :)

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Thanks for joining the threads :) . I was told by an employee that the owner treated Smokey with a type of Prazi treatment (not Prazipro though) and also Quick Cure. She said he used Quick Cure since the owner was concerned about Smokey carrying Costia seeing as Smokey was a pond fish. It's confusing though because Quick Cure isn't used for Costia as far as I can tell from reading on-line.

Is Costia different from columnaris...could this be costia?

Edited by Kayla102968
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He seems way too active and normal for this to be parasites in my opinion. Plus the fact that QuickCure treats costia, chilo, trich, velvet, ich, most of the main parasites. It is malachite green and formalin. Strong stuff that may have damaged his top epidermal layer.

I think it is a viral or bacterial dermal/skin thing. This diagnosis might change if his behavior does and you need to watch closely for any signs of change there.

I think you have two choices, a high salt bath for 30 mins to slough off old epidermal tissue and if that fails to work an extended QT treatment. I would try the salt dip first.

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The concentration should be 4 teaspoons per Gallon and the duration of the bath about 30 minutes. This salt strength will stimulate the protective slime coat, which will in turn enhance the immune response. The idea is the top layers of "skin" are sloughed off (usually you will see a white kind of peel left in the water after the dip).

Surface bacteria and some parasites slough off too along with this peel.

You need to get ready and allow 30 minutes of solid "observation" time. You have to watch him.This is extremely important as if the fish at any point FLOATS or FLIPS onto one side or even worse FLIPS OVER he must be removed immediately.

But don't panic. Most single tail fish can handle a dip okay :) This strength is not too much to be a risk to a small fish like yours either.

Get a bucket ready of fresh primed water that is the EXACT same temp and pH as the tank. Add a bubble wand. Dissolve and add the salt.

When ready add the fish NOT with your hands....but by transfer using a plastic tupperware (no soap residue) or jug so he is AT ALL TIMES surrounded by water. If he experiences any transfer stress the benefits decrease so this I think is also important.

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The concentration should be 4 teaspoons per Gallon and the duration of the bath about 30 minutes. This salt strength will stimulate the protective slime coat, which will in turn enhance the immune response. The idea is the top layers of "skin" are sloughed off (usually you will see a white kind of peel left in the water after the dip).

Surface bacteria and some parasites slough off too along with this peel.

You need to get ready and allow 30 minutes of solid "observation" time. You have to watch him.This is extremely important as if the fish at any point FLOATS or FLIPS onto one side or even worse FLIPS OVER he must be removed immediately.

But don't panic. Most single tail fish can handle a dip okay :) This strength is not too much to be a risk to a small fish like yours either.

Get a bucket ready of fresh primed water that is the EXACT same temp and pH as the tank. Add a bubble wand. Dissolve and add the salt.

When ready add the fish NOT with your hands....but by transfer using a plastic tupperware (no soap residue) or jug so he is AT ALL TIMES surrounded by water. If he experiences any transfer stress the benefits decrease so this I think is also important.

If I may add one thing to this...after the bath, I think the fish will be putting out a lot of ammonia and may also be purging its digestive tract contents. At least, this happens at baths and dips with a bit higher concentrations of salt. So, you might want to transfer Smokey to a another holding tank, with a double to triple dose of Prime (well-aerated of course) for a few hours before putting him back into the main tank.

Edited by dnalex
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Absolutely!!! Well caught!

I was going to say that after Kayla posted back as I didn't want to confound her with a huge long post with tons of info as I have a terrible habit of doing to people :oops: But this way with your post following it is perfect :)

Two buckets or containers are crucial here. One with salt, one without for the rinse.

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Thanks for the detailed explanation...I like that. One of my problems is that my tank water is at pH 8.3 and my tap water is at 7.1. I have to add buff it up in order to make my water hard enough to hold the pH steady in my tank. If I do a 50% w/c tonight...then tomorrow can I just use 2 gallons out of the tank to add salt to in order to give Smokey the bath? Does he need to be in a large container for the salt dip? Is a 3 gallon deep bucket not good since there will not be enough surfact aeration? After, for the rinse...I could put him in the 20 gallon long tank but I would have to add BIU (as well as the Prime) in order to have it keep the pH steady.

I've been doing 50% w/c's daily in order to keep nitrates down...they raise very quickly. I can't do larger than 50% w/c's since the ph is so different, but sometimes I do back to back changes in the morning and evening.

Edited by Kayla102968
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Thanks for the detailed explanation...I like that. One of my problems is that my tank water is at pH 8.3 and my tap water is at 7.1. I have to add buff it up in order to make my water hard enough to hold the pH steady in my tank. If I do a 50% w/c tonight...then tomorrow can I just use 2 gallons out of the tank to add salt to in order to give Smokey the bath? Does he need to be in a large container for the salt dip? Is a 3 gallon deep bucket not good since there will not be enough surface aeration? After, for the rinse...I could put him in the 20 gallon long tank but I would have to add BIU (as well as the Prime) in order to have it keep the pH steady.

I've been doing 50% w/c's daily in order to keep nitrates down...they raise very quickly. I can't do larger than 50% w/c's since the pH is so different, but sometimes I do back to back changes in the morning and evening.

Eek yes it is certainly a lot more tricky doing w/c's when you have a big tap tank pH difference! Not mission impossible though.

He does not need a large container for the dip. (Saves on salt too!).

In fact 3 or 4 gallon bucket is okay. I would never put a fish in anything less than that size for more than a few minutes. This is 30 mins only so yeah 5 gallon, 4 gallon...a large bucket would work. You say you have a 3 gallon bucket? Is that the largest? Can you fix an airwand in your largest bucket/container so that he has bubbles. The bubbles are important to relax him. Oxygen is very de-stressing for fish :)Some splash really has to be in that bucket.

Worst case scenario ...and I have done this CONFESSION OF A FISH LOONY alert follows : Sit by the bucket and continuously fill a small plastic cup from the bucket and pour it gently back into the bucket making splash: repeat: over and over: not stopping for 30 mins :blink:

The reason I was thinking fresh water is, as you have guessed, there is a sort of headstart on the treatment as you will not be transferring any of his already sloughed off skin cells from the water in the tank. It is a nice fresh start for the salt to work really good. If there is no other way to match the pH then you will have to do it the way you are suggesting BUT I was thinking maybe you could add the buff it up to tap water and wait??? How long does it usually take to work (sorry not sure... I use coral to raise my pH not B-I-U).

Thoughts?

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Here are the stats on the 3 areas Smokey will go:

Main tank: 69 degrees, pH: 8.1, 45 gallon long

Saline dip: 70 degrees, pH: 8.2; 15 gallon tub filled with 6 gallons of water and 24 teaspoons of salt and Prime and BIU added.

Rinse tank: 70 degrees, pH: 8.0; 20 gallon long tank with 15 gallons of water and only Prime and BIU added.

Do you think these are close enough...they are not perfect but considering my tap pH and water hardness I think they are about as close as I can get them.

So you don't think that trying this will hurt him as long as I'm closely watching the 30 minutes in the saline dip? I'm just worried since he does get stressed out being caught in a tupperware container and moved, since it takes a while to get underneath him without the others being around...he is a fast swimmer and inevitably it ends up in somewhat of a chase. Plus, he is not acting sickly so I feel guilty and hope I'm doing the right thing for him. Is it possible that the new mark on his side is just an injury (loss of scales) and then now the greyish colour is just excess slime coat?

I did a quick video of the set-up:

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Okay...the 30 minute salt dip is done and he's in the rinse tank now. It all went smoothly and he didn't seem stressed. His nose has less white on it now...although there is still a flap of skin attached that you can see when he moves. The marks on his side look worse or at least more obvious (where the scales were missing). They are less white but look deeper than before (and over a larger area). I have a few pics of him in his rinse tank and a video of the salt bath and afterwards in the rinse tank.

One of my concerns is that now that the nose and sides are more exposed, do I really want to put him back in the original tank?...Won't he just get them infected again with bacteria? I can tell he misses his friends though.

Salt bath: http://s1088.photobucket.com/albums/i322/Kayla102968/?action=view&current=MVI_3666.mp4

Rinse tank: http://s1088.photobucket.com/albums/i322/Kayla102968/?action=view&current=MVI_3675.mp4

Pictures of him after the salt bath in the rinse tank: http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i322/Kayla102968/IMG_3682.jpg

http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i322/Kayla102968/IMG_3680.jpg

I'm hoping Smokey will get rid of his skin problem. Do you think that me doing all the back to back water changes and adding a full dose of Prime with each could have caused these skin problems. Since it takes 48 hours for Prime to be inactive...maybe the water has too much Prime in it? But then I suppose the others would be affected as well.

Thanks for all your help so far. Please let me know what I need to do next.

Kayla

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Well done Kayla. Excellent job. I am not thinking this is bacterial at all now. I think it is viral or even possibly true sap fungal which occurs usually on pond fish and does have an incubation period. Here is a pic of true (really bad sap fungus) also known and easier to pronounce lol as water mold:

saprolegniafungus-1.jpg

Whichever it is, salt will help and antibiotics will make it worse so I think we are on the right track. You could even do another salt bath at a slightly higher strength if this comes back and does not clear up, since he did so well in the first.

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Tonight Smokey looks really rough on his right side. He seems to have more of the grayness (more spots of it) on his right side. Here is tonights video:

It does look a lot like they explain in the sap fungi info I looked at. It also says the area will look like ulcers and his does kinda look like that now. The article talks about 0.6 to 1% range salinity bath for 30 minutes or less. They also say that Salt is a distant second and that Malachite green would be the first choice. I think he had an injury that caused the sap fungus to grow and so even if the fungus is removed he will still need to heal the wounds so it doesn't happen again. It doesn't sound like a very good prognosis for Smokey :(.

He does seem a little slower moving tonight.

Edited by Kayla102968
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Yes he does look worse. Can you get Mal Green or formalin. He should be treated now more aggressively.

Meth blue also works. Basically you need disinfectant type medication with either Green or formalin or Meth blue in.

Quick Cure should have worked on this btw. It clearly was not dosed correctly or used properly, or possibly it was and it was kept at bay...

I suggest:

Fungus Cure by AP.

Powder pack or capsule.

Ick Clear by Jungle

These both have Green in.

As does Quickcure by Aquarium Products.

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