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Smokey has a new white spot...what to do now :(


Kayla102968

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So, can I bring it up to 0.2 % right now by taking out a pot full of tank water and adding 30 more teaspoons of salt (since I just remembered I am using canning salt and not the thicker salt...so I just need to add 30 more teaspoons right?).

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Yup. That's fine. :)

I don't know if anyone has suggested that you get some medicated food, just to be prepared should you ever need. There are two products from goldfishconnection.com, called Medi-Gold & Metro-Meds, that are good to have on hand (but unopened).

Also, do you have Melafix? I am thinking that salt/Melafix at half dose would be good here. We want to get rid of the columnaris as quickly as possible.

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And then tomorrow morning add 30 more teaspoons of salt (to make a total of 90 teaspoons of salt). And then tomorrow night do a 50 percent w/c and add back the 45 teaspoons of salt I took out in the w/c. Is this correct?

You think it's columnaris?

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Yes, I do think it's columnaris, which is a bacterial infection. Melafix is a tea tree solution that API sells. It has antimicrobial activities and is quite a lot milder than antibiotics. I am hoping that between the salt & Melafix half-dose that the columnaris will be eliminated, avoiding the need for the meds. It's great that you have them, though :)

The salt calculations are correct.

Melafix is wide available at all LFS/LPS, and at Wal-mart :)

Edited by dnalex
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I'll check tonight at Wal-Mart for Melafix...if they don't have it then I'll try the pet stores tomorrow morning. Should I only do a half dose of Melafix? Is it something you add to the water?

Sorry for all the questions...thanks again for all your help Alex. I really want these 3 fish to make it to their 125 gallon tank.

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I really want these 3 fish to make it to their 125 gallon tank.

That's the idea! :)

Melafix is added directly to the water. I can't remember off hand how much is the recommended dose, but just do 1/2 the recommended dose. This is what Koko has taken to doing recently. You will need to have good aeration for this, and I think your tank does :)

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Salt is at 0.2% and I am going to add in a half dose of Melafix tonight. It says 1 tsp per 10 gallons, so I will put 2 teaspoons in. Then it says that I need to add this dose each day for 7 days. Then do a 25% water change. I'm going to have to do water changes within those 7 days. So do I add back 1 teaspoon (taken out in the 50% w/c) and then the 2 new teaspoons...so 3 teaspoons? Then if I'm 4 days into the treatment then I'll have 4 teaspoons to add back plus 2 more new teaspoons? Uggh, so confusing with all these extra w/c's.

I hope I have enough aeration in the tank.

Thanks again.

Kayla

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Actually, feel free to do water changes during time. When you do, just add back the salt you took out, and then add the 1/2 dose of Melafix for the day. Don't make up for all the previous days. :)

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Oh...okay. That's much less complicated..lol. There is a lot of soapy like bubbles at the top of the tank after I added the melafix. Smokey does not like it, he is swimming wildly...Elmo seems a bit hesitant and Sparky is taking it all in stride and searching for any possible food on the bottom of the tank :) . Tomorrow morning I will bring the salt up to 0.3% and tomorrow evening I'll do a w/c, replace salt I took out, and then add in my 2 tsp of melafix for the day. Alright, I have a plan and I can go to bed. Thanks again!

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Make sure there is plenty of air (bubbler) in the tank with the Melafix. Some fish dont like it and will swim fast, Keep an eye out for labored breathing. If this starts then I suggest to do a water change to get the Melafix out. :) But Alex is right just do 1/2 doses and if the fish are 3" or smaller dont go over 1/2 a dose, they dont seem to be able to deal with it :(

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So I've been reading about columnaris...it seems very scary :( . They talk about a 'saddleback' lesion near the dorsal fin. I saw something like this on Smokey at the LFS...it looked yellow (like a colour change occurring) right where his dorsal fin meets his back (at the back end). He still has it. It's like a line along his backbone where the dorsal meets his back. This morning I can see that Sparky has a change in colour (yellowing) on her back bone where the dorsal fin meets. I'm getting a little nervous. Do you think I should continue with the salt and 1/2 dose of melafix per day...or should I jump up the treatment to an antibiotic food? I just don't want my fish to take a drastic change for the worse and then I can't get them to eat the antibiotic food. Do you think we have time to wait and see if the melafix and salt works by itself?

Here's a video from this morning...can you see the yellow coloring on Sparky (all along backbone where dorsal meets) and Smokey (right where the back end of the dorsal fin meets his back)?

Thanks,

Kayla

http://s1088.photobucket.com/albums/i322/Kayla102968/Goldfish/?action=view&current=MVI_3233.mp4

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My fish hate 0.3% salt...it's like they slow down completely...like they are swimming in thick liquid or just floating in one spot. Smokey's face looks strange (white on his bottom lip too now)...he does breath fast sometimes (you'll see it at the end of the video). Are they going to be okay? They seem to just want to sit by the bottom now until I come over and they think they'll be fed.

http://s1088.photobucket.com/albums/i322/Kayla102968/Goldfish/?action=view&current=MVI_3239.mp4

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OK. Let's do it this way, then, since I think they are having issues with both the flukes & the bacterial infection. Why don't you do an 80-90% WC to get all salt and Melafix out. Then we do both Prazi & Medi-Gold for two weeks.

This is the new schedule, starting today (day 0)

Day 0: water change, Prazi

Day 4: WC

Day 5, WC, Prazi

Day 9: WC

Day 10: WC, Prazi

Day 14: WC

Everyone gets Medi-Gold three times a day 4-6 pellets each time.

The Prazi is to get rid of the flukes. The Medi-Gold is to take care of the bacterial infections.

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4-6 pellets per fish each time. We want them each to have at least 1% of their body weight in medicated food each day.

Normally, I wouldn't not want to use Medi-Gold (or any other medicated food as first option, and it's actually not here either), but it does seem to me that Smokey brought flukes with him, AND columnaris. At this stage, we need to treat both the flukes and the bacterial infection. Salt is not an option because Prazipro doesn't work very well at concentrations above 0.1%. Hence the combo of Prazi/MG.

Good luck.

If you don't mind, just post at least one daily update so that we can what's going on. :)

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At least one daily update...lol... I'll try to limit myself to less than 5 a day :) . Can they eat Thera A pellets (or peas & veggies) as well, or are they just to eat medicated food? What happens if one fish eats all of the pellets, is it possible they can eat too many? Can they eat more of the antibiotic food if they want it...or does it need to be limited to 4-6 pellets per fish per meal?

Out of curiosity, what symptoms show they still have flukes.

Thanks.

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Without actually doing scrapes and then looking under the microscope, we are really just relying on the symptoms to make the diagnosis. With flukes, it's flashing and darting, fin splits (body flukes), and at later stages, bottom sitting and labored breathing. Of course, we also have to take into account of other things like water parameters to make sure that it's not a water quality issue or something else.

With these medicated foods, we aim to give them in the range of 1-3% of food daily. Given that goldfish have no stomach, it's better to break this amount down to smaller portions to feed at regular intervals during the day. How often depends on you.

During this time, you should feed ONLY the medicated food, although a pea on a rare occasion is fine. The idea is that we want to have a steady amount of antibiotics being absorbed into tissues without interruption.

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The fish seem to be settling into the .3% salt...they are still moving slower, but they really don't look terribly sick (dorsals all up, searching for food at times). When looking at Smokey, he seems to be whitening all over his body, is it possible that mark on his lip is simply a strange looking colour change? Under his chin and around his gills and under his eyes is also going a white colouration (you can see this in the video I just posted). Other than his split tail fin he seems to be acting okay...just slower now with the salt. I just tested the water and the reading was: ammonia: 0, nitrites: 0, nitrates: hard to say, but I'd go with 30. I'm going to do a w/c tonight, but thought I would check back in with you one last time and see if you think the Medi-gold and Prazi is the best option at this point? The video I have here is a bit clearer than before...do you still think it is columnaris? Would it help at all to contact the LFS I got Smokey from...unfortunately he is about an hour's drive away and I don't want to stress Smokey out more by taking him there to get checked out by a microscope slide. If it was your fishies...what would you do? :)

Here's the video:

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The whitening under his belly and under his eyes looks like his regular scales. The white spot on his upper lip looks like a small, white leech hanging on. I would have thought it was a thick worm. I know if it is bacterial it is important to get the antibiotic in him before it's too late (they can go downhill fast, can't they?). The best view I get of the white mark is when I videotape it and hit pause on the screen at just the right spot, otherwise he is just moving too fast to get a good view of it.

Here are 2 more videos that show it a bit clearer...and if you can pause it at the right time you can see that it almost looks like a worm or like someone brushed his lip with some white paint.

Here is one more video that shows it better too:

Edited by Kayla102968
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Have you started the Medi-Gold? If not, I would keep with the salt until tomorrow, and let's re-examine things. I don't want to commit you to a course of antibiotics quite just yet, if it can be helped.

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