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Very Sick Black Moor


Summer4

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You can add Melafix back if you like. The thing you will want to be really careful when using these products is to make sure you have lots of aeration in the tank.

Let us know how he does. Has the white patch come back?

He has no white patches on him. I do have a large bubble wand at the back of my tank. It creates so much air in my tank I have bubbles floating all around my tank. You think the melefix would be better than the pimafix?

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I've never used Pimafix, while I've used Melafix quite a bit. Pimafix is 1% bay oil, while Melafix is 1% tea tree oil. The tea tree oil's medicinal property is very well appreciated, and is definitely an anti-microbial. I would choose Melafix over Pimafix any day. In any case, would it be possible for you to upload a video of this bottom sitting? I am concerned that it's external parasites.

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Hi Summer4. I'm sorry about your moor! :( Just checking in with some thoughts, even though Alex is looking after you so well.

I think it's still difficult to give a definite diagnosis as one fish is fine yes? But I would agree with Alex's theory of slimecoat thickening for some reason. Aside from external parasites which also produces this response, one reason can be that the fish is trying to protect himself from gases in the water that he is having trouble osmoting. When you moved him to a bowl the water there was a temporary relief from the main tank gases. Some fish are more sensitive than others and have weaker swimbladders (where the gases are diffused).

I think it might be an idea to remove both fish and their bubble wand to a rubbermaid or other container for 30 mins using the water in the tank now so as not to shock...and do a big gravel vaccuum. A thorough swirling and churn up to release toxins into the water column.The gravel produces these gases in a process called sulfate reduction. It can cause all these symptoms.

Just to explain this, the anaerobic bacs living deep under the gravel breathe/respirate gases like nitrates, sulfate, and carbon dioxide. These are the gases that collect under all (deeper than 2cm) gravel. Anaerobic bacteria lack the enzyme to convert oxygen into a viable form so hate the higher level, oxygenated places. So, when we disturb the gravel these gases that they are using are released back into the aquarium. This is one possibility for gravel disturbance followed by sudden floaty fish. So cleaning deep gravel is best done with the fish removed.

The other thing that can happen is that the gravel dwelling bacteria's supply of gas nutrients is used up. At this time you will smell a rotten egg smell in the tank which is the true and full sulfate reduction process- a sort of decomposition or fermentation of the bacteria. There can even be a sprinkling of black dust visible at this point.

It would also be a good starting point to move from if medication has to be the the next step since meds are most effective in low organics and higher oxygen levels.

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Thank you both so much for your help. He still isn't doing good. Earlier before I saw your message I did a 25% WC, and added back the melefix. I did vacuum the gravel a little...but nothing major. He has mainly been bottom sitting in the back. A few times before the WC, and meds he was laying on his side, and looking really weak. After I did the WC and meds he swam a little, and almost got stuck on the filter again. So right now he is just back to sitting on the bottom. I am really worried I am going to lose him....he was my favorite :(.

ETA: His color has also rapidly changed from black to bronzish.

Edited by Summer4
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Another thing....the last few weeks he hasn't been eating that great. I have to turn off my filter for a few minutes when I feed the fish because the current is too strong for him. The last few weeks he really didn't seem to eat much, and right before all this happened he would just let food float right past him and not even eat. I am worried that he has not been eating enough. My other three goldfish are very fast eaters too....I know black moors are slower. Since being sick he has only ate two pellets when in the goldfish bowl. Here in the tank he doesn't come anywhere near the top to eat. Will he starve?

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Oh, I'm sorry. He is definitely unwell :(

Is it possible for you to follow Trinket's suggestions and isolate both fish to a large tub, with bubble wand, and do a really good gravel vacuum, plus a huge water change to get rid of all the debris and gases.

As for the eating, I think that's the first sign that something is off. I have (and had) several telescopes and moors, and while they may not be able to see as well as some of the others, they've compensated for their eyes and are always among the first to the food.

For now, I would do as Trinket suggests and go from there.

Hang in there. I know it's really stressful when there is a sick fish :(

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Im not sure if I will be able to do it tonight. In the meantime....what should I do if he gets weak enough it looks like he is going to get stuck to the filter? Should I put him in a container with a bubble stone? I do have another 5 gallon tank, but it has a beta in it.

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What is the biggest container you can find? There are usually Sterilite (always use Sterilite, as all Sterilite tubs are food safe) tubs available pretty cheaply at Walmart etc.

I would be very careful not to put him in anything smaller than a 10 gallon overnight, since he is still producing ammonia, and without biological filtration that may do a lot more harm than good.

What I would like to suggest is if you have a plastic colander, you could float that in the big tank, with him in it. This way, he still benefits from having a large volume of water with filtration without getting dragged to the intake.

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That's an idea.

And if you can give the gravel a good thorough clean tomorrow removing both fish, you will rid the tank of the huge pile up of gases which are quite probably

making him floaty. Fishes swimbladders are so teeny weeny and they are responsible for a fishes balance. They work like a pump taking in gases and releasing them. When there are too many of the wrong kinds of gases in the water the swimbladder cannot function.

If you have plastic plants I suggest removing those too as they can also release PCBs which are also gases.

I think that may be all you need do.

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I do have some containers that are probably at least 10 gallon, but I like your colander idea. I may try to do the gravel cleaning tonight. Should I re-salt the tank to .1%? Will fine grained regular sea salt work? I ran out of aquarium salt last night.

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That's an idea.

And if you can give the gravel a good thorough clean tomorrow removing both fish, you will rid the tank of the huge pile up of gases which are quite probably

making him floaty. Fishes swimbladders are so teeny weeny and they are responsible for a fishes balance. They work like a pump taking in gases and releasing them. When there are too many of the wrong kinds of gases in the water the swimbladder cannot function.

If you have plastic plants I suggest removing those too as they can also release PCBs which are also gases.

I think that may be all you need do.

Thank you. Should I remove the plastic plants permanently? I also have a bridge decoration...should I keep that in?

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Yes fine grain sea salt is fine! I always use sea salt. You can re salt to 0.1%. It's enough :)

Edit:

I would seriously remove the plastic plants for ever. the ornament maybe okay as long as its not hollow and trapping bacteria which ferment without oxygen (and then make gas).

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Yes fine grain sea salt is fine! I always use sea salt. You can re salt to 0.1%. It's enough :)

Edit:

I would seriously remove the plastic plants for ever. the ornament maybe okay as long as its not hollow and trapping bacteria which ferment without oxygen (and then make gas).

The bridge is hallow :(. Bummer....the fish like it.

ETA: It is hallow...but has a hole on the top and some on the bottom. Would it be ok after all?

Edited by Summer4
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Yeah it really is a bummer. I know they like a place to hide. All is not lost however. You can keep it if you can lift it every few days to release trapped gases :)

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Yeah it really is a bummer. I know they like a place to hide. All is not lost however. You can keep it if you can lift it every few days to release trapped gases

I wonder if this will work...could you run airline tubing through one end of the hollow and let air push though to the other end?

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uh huh..I have heard that works :D I remember someone somewhere explaining how to do that, run the tubing so it isn't too visible.

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I have done a large gravel vac, and got about 60-70% removed. I lost suction when I lifted my cleaner up too much. Hopefully I got enough out??? My four fish are in a sterilite container with bubble wand, and my black moor is swimming around normally! Amazing.

ETA: My plants are silk plants...are they still a no go?

Edited by Summer4
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Yep!!! It was the gases affecting his swim bladder function. That is great news.

I think you will find they make a complete recovery if you can keep on top of the gravel vacuuming and removal of gases :)

You can also look at reducing the gravel by half slowly, over a few weeks to make maintenance easier :)

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Yep!!! It was the gases affecting his swim bladder function. That is great news.

I think you will find they make a complete recovery if you can keep on top of the gravel vacuuming and removal of gases :)

You can also look at reducing the gravel by half slowly, over a few weeks to make maintenance easier :)

Thanks! My gravel actually is only about 1 inch right know. I was worrying it was not enough. I hope I got enough of the bad out that when I put him back in he will be ok. Thank you both for all your help!

Edited by Summer4
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Are my silk plants still bad for the tank? Also, the bridge has holes on the bottom, and two on the top. So water can move through the whole thing. Gases should be able to too, right?

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Are my silk plants still bad for the tank? Also, the bridge has holes on the bottom, and two on the top. So water can move through the whole thing. Gases should be able to too, right?

Silk plants should be fine. I have a ton in my tanks, and I rotate them out regularly to clean them and to change the scenes a bit.

The idea with forcing air through the structure is that as the air pass from one end to the other, it creates movement in the water :)

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Hi again Summer. I am so sorry he is bad again and flipped on his side. I was just wondering if your cycle may have crashed. Did you use the Lifegaurd meds in the main tank? Are your nitrates still at zero as that would indicate a crash :(

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