Jump to content

Oranda Calico & Oranda Kirin :D :D :D


dnalex

Recommended Posts

  • Regular Member

Alex, please answer a question that's been bugging me. What does kirin mean and exactly how is it different from calico?

Thanks much.

Hi, shakaho, as best as I could determine, a kirin is a variant of the calico, and the genetics of kirin inheritance is still being worked out, I believe, because it does not follow that of calico x calico crosses. A kirin is has metallic scales, with predominant gray coloration where the scales are transparent and you can see the blue underneath.

They are beautiful Alex :)

Thank you, Molly :D

@Koko - :rofl

Edited by dnalex
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

I have seen people talking of a kirin gene. I don't know if this is a different gene from that that produces calico or if it is a modifier of the calico gene. Do you know?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

I have seen people talking of a kirin gene. I don't know if this is a different gene from that that produces calico or if it is a modifier of the calico gene. Do you know?

I think there is definitely a kirin gene, subject to modification. For example, the calico gene will mask the kirin. I forget the rest, but when you cross two kirins, you only get 1/8 kirin.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Shakaho,

This is what Steve from Rain Garden said about kirins back in March of 2011.

The Kirin gene behaves differently from normal calico. If two Kirin are crossed, you only get about 10-12% true metallic and another 10-12% which are mostly metallic but with a slight trace of matt. Likewise, there are about 10-12% true matt and another 10-12% which look matt at first glance but have a bit of guanine here and there. About 50-60% will be obvious calico and about a third of these will be Kirin. The percentages are hard to pin down precisely because sometimes the amount of guanine in a pinky matt is so small that it can escape notice.

There is either a separate modifier gene and it's working like a dihybrid, or the gene for scale type has become uncoupled so it acts as like a true tetraploid instead of a diploid. I'm pretty sure that the Kirin genotype and Midnight genotype have something in common. Just can't unravel it yet.

To me, the defining characteristics of Kirin are both the large amount of black and also an unusually large amount of guanine and nacreous scales.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

That was so interesting. Merryweather is kirin and I still wasn't quite sure what that meant. These are adorable chubby faced orandas...if you get some babies (which you likely will if the early eggs are any indication) then I will have to get a bigger tank to take a few...they are so cute!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Shakaho,

This is what Steve from Rain Garden said about kirins back in March of 2011.

The Kirin gene behaves differently from normal calico. If two Kirin are crossed, you only get about 10-12% true metallic and another 10-12% which are mostly metallic but with a slight trace of matt. Likewise, there are about 10-12% true matt and another 10-12% which look matt at first glance but have a bit of guanine here and there. About 50-60% will be obvious calico and about a third of these will be Kirin. The percentages are hard to pin down precisely because sometimes the amount of guanine in a pinky matt is so small that it can escape notice.

There is either a separate modifier gene and it's working like a dihybrid, or the gene for scale type has become uncoupled so it acts as like a true tetraploid instead of a diploid. I'm pretty sure that the Kirin genotype and Midnight genotype have something in common. Just can't unravel it yet.

To me, the defining characteristics of Kirin are both the large amount of black and also an unusually large amount of guanine and nacreous scales.

Kirin is actually not a color-type! That is a mis-conception.

This is the info I have from a very good source. Kirin or Qilin or Keelun is a mythological animal in China that brings fortune and prosperity . It's a crossbred of a Dragon and a Lion or Tiger. According to the mythology it has ‘shiny colors’.

Kirin Oranda do not have different colors but a distinct different body-type.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

I've never heard of Kirin being a body type difference, I had always seen it displayed as 'dragon scaled' (grey shading covering the underlying colour pattern) true the first kirin's out of asia were lionhead and lionchu kirin's.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Shakaho,

This is what Steve from Rain Garden said about kirins back in March of 2011.

The Kirin gene behaves differently from normal calico. If two Kirin are crossed, you only get about 10-12% true metallic and another 10-12% which are mostly metallic but with a slight trace of matt. Likewise, there are about 10-12% true matt and another 10-12% which look matt at first glance but have a bit of guanine here and there. About 50-60% will be obvious calico and about a third of these will be Kirin. The percentages are hard to pin down precisely because sometimes the amount of guanine in a pinky matt is so small that it can escape notice.

There is either a separate modifier gene and it's working like a dihybrid, or the gene for scale type has become uncoupled so it acts as like a true tetraploid instead of a diploid. I'm pretty sure that the Kirin genotype and Midnight genotype have something in common. Just can't unravel it yet.

To me, the defining characteristics of Kirin are both the large amount of black and also an unusually large amount of guanine and nacreous scales.

Kirin is actually not a color-type! That is a mis-conception.

This is the info I have from a very good source. Kirin or Qilin or Keelun is a mythological animal in China that brings fortune and prosperity . It's a crossbred of a Dragon and a Lion or Tiger. According to the mythology it has ‘shiny colors’.

Kirin Oranda do not have different colors but a distinct different body-type.

Obviously kirin does refer to colour not body type....."shiny colours" = metallic scales ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

No Kirin really is a body-type and has nothing to do with color.. it can have different colors.

I have this information from the dealer where I get my fish. He is Chinese and hand-picks the fish he sells in China and imports them to the Netherlands. He really knows a lot. There is so much info on these fish that we Westeners do not know or that is lost in translation.

For instance there are also Panda Kirin Oranda, Calico Kirin Oranda, etc.

Kirin is often associated with metallic scaled fish but this is incorrect.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Hi, Fleipie. Thank you for all your input. It is much appreciated. However, at this time, I will respectfully disagree with you.

Kirin to me remains to be the definition of a color variant on calico, and as such, is not limited to just orandas. This definition is widely accepted by many American breeders of goldfish and by several major importers of Chinese goldfish. Some of these people are of Chinese descent or themselves Chinese.

I encourage you to check the information again more than just the one breeder, since I'm sure you are in agreement with me that one person can make a mistake, no matter how knowledgeable, and especially when there is the barrier of different languages.

I don't anticipate to change your opinion, and I respect it. Let us end the discussion here, as we are at an impasse. Thank you!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

I think it is a good discussion :)

But if there is no room for discussion...

He actually has his information from Chinese literature, but also in China many breeders mis-name goshiki type fish as Kirin.

Just look at this Kirin Ranchu: http://www.rafflesgold.com/forums/images/52000/post-9-1203049699.jpg

But besides all that.. I really like the Orandas in the first post :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Lol. It's not that there is no room for discussion, but that is what I was told about kirin and from reading. There isn't much I can do to change that. It may very well have started out as a misconception, but in America at least, kirin defines a goldfish color pattern.

I do like these discussions very much, and hope you don't think that disagreements are discouraged. :)

Thank you for the kind words about the fish. I am hoping to breed my own, which I think will allow for better & healthier fish in the future :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Supporter

very little information online for the Kirin.. still interesting though, so i copied and pasted it.

Chinese Dragon Eye (Kirin Eye) Demekin

traditionaldragoneye.gif

The Chinese Dragon Eye Goldfish or Kirin Eye is characterized by the Dark Iris resembling the monsters of chinese mythology. The coloring of the iris sometimes starts out brown or faint in juvenile fish but darkens with maturity.

(this fish also has a silk tail trait but that's a whole different webpage)

perfectdragon.gif

Above: Chinese Dragon Below:The Kirinchinese-dragon.jpg

arguably, Kirin is used to describe color of the goldfish as well. Sometimes Kirin is also used for double tailed goldfish with a single ventral fin. This is associated to the Kirin's "unicorn" horn.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

I really think there are multiple meanings of "kirin" as it applies to goldfish. I have seen reference to the "kirin eye" before.

Here's an interesting list of meanings: http://dictionary.babylon.com/kirin/

Wikipedia English - The Free Encyclopedia

Kirin may refer to:

Kirin, the Japanese word for the Qilin, a mythical beast in Chinese culture and also the word for giraffe in the Ming Dynasty

Kirin Brewery Company, Ltd., a Japanese brewing company

Kirin Cup, a football tournament sponsored by the brewery

A playing piece in the Japanese boardgame Chu shogi and other shogi variants

Kirin, an older spelling of Jilin, a city and a province in Manchuria, in China

Kylin, a server operating system developed by the Chinese government

Considering the fantastic nature of the kirin, there could easily be kirin color, kirin eyes, and kirin body type. Heck, my search kept popping up with Kirin Sushi in Orlando. It's probably great with Kirin beer.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Lol. I am more than willing to have some Kirin beer :)

In any case, I don't have any problems with the word kirin being used to specify color, eyes, AND body conformation. In this thread, I was referring to kirin only as a color pattern, and not as body shape :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

LOL, I love the music you added to the video. The fish are beautiful, Alex. :) Good luck with them... I hope they make you many beautiful babies!

Thank you, Joshua! :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...