i think Paul is dying

[Kerstin]

Problems:

Test Results for the Following:
• * Ammonia Level 0
  
• * Nitrite Level 0
  
• * Nitrate level 10
  
• * Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) highest on the APS drop chart
  
• * Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)
  
• same
  Other Required Info:
• * Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? APL drops
  
• * Water temperature? 72
  
• * Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? 55, 2 years about
  
• * What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)? Aqua clear
  
• 
  
• * How often do you change the water and how much?
  
• 50% weekly, but upped water changes to 60% 2x a week
  

• * How many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change? yesterday 60%
  
• * How many fish in the tank and their size? 2 fish about 8 inches
  
• * What kind of water additives or conditioners? prime
  
• * What do you feed your fish and how often? GC flake, blood worms, veggies
  
• * Any new fish added to the tank? no
  
• * Any medications added to the tank? salt
  
• * List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment.
  
• * Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? last week I posted a thread about the white thing behind her eye and the frayed fins. She still has the frayed fins, but now is breathing heavily and she seems bloated, but not pine coning. She spend must time yesterday on the ground and did not eat either. This morning I found her stuck to the filter intake. I though the breathing trouble might be because she does not do well with the slightly higher dose of salt 1 1/s tea spoons per gallon so after yesterdays water change I did not put in any more salt and did not replace the salt that was in there.
  

Hope you guys have some ideas. Thanks

• * Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.?
  
• 
  

[Helen]

hi kerstin,

i am sorry to hear that you're having problems with paul and think that she's near death.

i think at this stage, as you seem to be doing everything right, params in check, understocked, etc.. everything is as what we would all be doing on a norm, i call for a video of this behavior.

do you think that there might be some consitpation here? ie, floating and stuck near filter? would you be happy to try fasting for 24 hours and then feeding peas?

[Helen]

another thought is perhaps qt? smaller volume of water, less current to just keep her comfortable until we see if we can find what the problem is?

[Kerstin]

Hi Stakos,

thanks for your quick reply. I really have no way of taking a video. As for fasting, I tried that a couple of times. Fed them peas and then fasted the next day, but that did not make any difference. But she might well be constipated because I have not seen her poop in quite a while.

[Kerstin]

Oh as for qt. The only place I'd have for her would be the 20G with the two little feeders in it. I guess I could put them with Pete, if you think that would be a good idea?

[Helen]

Hi Stakos,

thanks for your quick reply. I really have no way of taking a video. As for fasting, I tried that a couple of times. Fed them peas and then fasted the next day, but that did not make any difference. But she might well be constipated because I have not seen her poop in quite a while.

you can try to put an epsom granule in the pea.. see if that makes a difference. is she taking food? if not, i have a method if you have a syringe available.

Oh as for qt. The only place I'd have for her would be the 20G with the two little feeders in it. I guess I could put them with Pete, if you think that would be a good idea?

how long have the feeders been in the 20? is it cycled and have they been through qt with salt and prazi for a month or more? does it hold the same values with PH and temp?

[Kerstin]

She is not eating since yesterday, but I can definitely get a syringe on the way home from work to try and feed her with.

The feeder tank is cycled. They have been in there for a few months, just haven't put them in the pond yet. They have been through salt treatment, but no prazi. They seem healthy. It has the same ph and temp as the other tank.

Thanks for your help.

[amynmitchell]

I wouldn't put this fish in with the feeders. I would probably be inclined to float him in a colander in the main tank to keep him from the filters. If you could get some overview shots so we can look for scale lifting that would help as well.

[Helen]

She is not eating since yesterday, but I can definitely get a syringe on the way home from work to try and feed her with.

The feeder tank is cycled. They have been in there for a few months, just haven't put them in the pond yet. They have been through salt treatment, but no prazi. They seem healthy. It has the same ph and temp as the other tank.

Thanks for your help.

if you're confident they are well, ie, healthy, no parasites/bacteria, i would be looking at moving them in with paul and setting the 20 gal as a qt.. or, the next option is a rubbermaid tub (or something similar)

[Kerstin]

They look healthy to me. So you think I should use the 20G instead of a colander?

[Helen]

i think so.. as i would like to do daily water changes. how soon can this be arranged?

[Kerstin]

Thanks. I can do that as soon as I get home from work which would be in about 1 hour.

[Kerstin]

Should I get the syringe for feeding also?

[Helen]

yes and yes.

ok.. so once you have moved the feeders over, you will need to do a 100% wc whilst paul is in her transport tub. as the qt is cycled, i would like you to go up to 0.05% in salt which will assist in breathing. we will speak about the food once she's in there. when was the last time she ate?

[Kerstin]

The last time she ate was two days ago. How much would 0.05 salt be in teaspoons?

[Helen]

ok.. she's gonna need to eat soon.

the dosage for the salt to be at 0.05% for your 20 gallon is 10 level teaspoons.

the salt rule is 1 level teaspoon per gallon to bring your tank to 0.1% but we're doing half that for now.

please make sure you are using pure salt or aquarium salt and ensure it's fully dissolved before you add it to qt.

[Kerstin]

ok. thanks. I have the aquarium salt at home.

What and how will I feed her with the syringe?

[Helen]

do you have epsom salt also?

[Kerstin]

no, but I can pick some up at the pharmacy on the way home.

[Helen]

ok. sounds good..

here is what i plan for syringe feeding.

peas, boil them until they are pasty soft. finely crush 2 epsom granules (i use a spoon to finely crush the epsom on a plastic dry (clean) chopping board smooth surface side), then i mash the pea into the crushed epsom. open the syringe and put the paste in there.. close the syringe until the paste is right at the end, draw up very little water and shake until it's a runny paste, almost like a thick soup.

then, i hold the fish gently in the water with it's mouth to the surface (careful not to be holding the gill plates closed). i rub the syringe up and down the fish's mouth to encourage it to open the mouth and squirt in small amounts at a time until all fed. so feed, wait until she's eating, feed again, wait etc.. .until all the food has been fed. don't worry if she spits some out, so long as she eats some. now, judging about how much she's eaten, you can do this several times a day. however, i would not feed more than 6 epsom granules a day using this method and i would not exceed 3 days of feeding epsom.

i have a video of this, i will see if i can find it.

[Kerstin]

Thank you.

[Helen]

ok.. here is the video.. now this is the first time i syringe fed. you will see that i had a lot of water in the syringe. i don't do it like this anymore, i have very little water in there and the feed is more green from the pea.. i know my hand is in the way of the film, but it does show encouragement forcing her to open her mouth at some stage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwTpEiMkZRU"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwTpEiMkZRU

Edited October 28, 2011 by stakos

[Kerstin]

Just got home and she is barely moving at all, just lying on her side. Should I still move her to the other tank?

[Helen]

is she in C shape? or upright? can you upload a pic?

sorry, i missed the "laying on side" comment. still tho.. is it C shape?

[Kerstin]

she is lying against one of the decorations kind of in C, yes. And her mouth is half open and not moving. But she is still breathing a little bit. Can't upload a photo, because the camera is at work.