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mabelogrey

Red-cap Still Flicking/flashing

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been treating with prazi for my 3rd week now... ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates(due to 50% water changes once or twice a week) are all at 0ppm, temp is a little high, 78ish...

i'm retreating a 50% prazi dose when i do my 50% water changes...

sampson's flashing/flicking doesn't seem to be any better however:/

he doesn't have any visual signs of distress i can see, he does have breeding tubercles on his pectoral fins however.. is this behavior perhaps related to that?

the other two fish aren't doing anything like this, and all three are eating well...

i'm continuing prazi for a few more weeks, i just guess i had hoped sampson would be doing better by now... should i start thinking about doing something else? should i wait a few more weeks of prazi?

Thanks in advance as always!

.gabe

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I'd like to add a few clarifying questions so that there's a bit more info.

1. There's no other meds/treatment in the tank other than Prazi, right? Would you mind describing to us exactly how you are treating with the Prazi schedule wise and taking into account your water changes. This is really important, because in order for Prazi to work effectively to eradicate flukes, there have to be a number of "on" days and an number of "off" days to allow for the Prazi-susceptible forms of flukes to develop.

2. Have symptoms gotten worse since treatment, or have they remained the same?

3. Are you using Prazipro or a different Prazi?

4. Are there any other "off" behaviors other than flicking/flashing?

5. Lastly, I know that you've already indicated the ammonia, nitrite, nitrate values, but if you don't mind, would you copy/paste the questions up top and answer them also, as this is an important part of getting all necessary info for diagnosis.

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[*]Test Results for the Following:

[*]Ammonia Level?0

[*]Nitrite Level?0

[*]Nitrate level?0

[*]Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)? 7.3

[*]Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)? 7.4-7.5

[*]Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? api drops

[*]Water temperature?78

[*]Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running?60g finished cycling 4 weeks ago

[*]What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)? 10g or so custom sump

[*]How often do you change the water and how much? 1-2 times a week, 50%

[*]how many days ago was the last water change and how much? yesterday, 50%

[*]How many fish in the tank and their size? 3: 2.5, 3.5, 5

[*]What kind of water additives or conditioners? prime

[*]What do you feed your fish and how often? thera+a and hikari lionhead

[*]Any new fish added to the tank? 2.5" oranda, and another 2.5" that didn't make it:(

[*]Any medications added to the tank? prazi-pro

[*]List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. prazi-pro and salt, melafix at 50% dose when i added the two new 2.5"

Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment.

[*]Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus?

[*]Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.? sampson(red-cap) is Very active swimming, flicking/flashing at times, the other two are also rather active, but no signs of flashing/rubbing...

hmmm, i did not know about an On/Off schedule for the prazi-pro.. i have just been doing 50% water changes 1-2 times a week, and redosing the replaced water % of prazi when i did a change, and doing a full prazi dose on each week on the week... is this not allowing the right flukes to form?

the behavior doesnt seem to be any better or worse, it comes and goes honestly, but he's always a very active swimmer, even when not flashing...

Thanks!

.gabe

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Hello, usually when we have a cycled tank, one of the treatment protocols (there are a few) is as follows: perform a large water change (80%), then add appropriate dose of Prazi. One week later, do another large water change (80%), and re-dose. Repeat this for a total of 4-6 treatments.

Here's why. When you add Prazi to the tank, within hours the adult flukes will start to fall off the fish and die. The adults flukes will usually contain larvae and/or eggs, which will not be harmed by the Prazi, as they are shielded within the "mother" fluke. It may take them a few days to emerge from the mother fluke and begin seeking new fish host to infect. Prazi, unfortunately, becomes inactivated after about 3 days in the tank, so there will be about 4 days where we allow the larvae and eggs to develop into susceptible forms, and then we hit them with Prazi again. For good measure, we do 4-6 rounds of treatment, as there have been development of some Prazi-resistant flukes.

Given that your tank has finished cycling, I would like to suggest that you dose Prazi in this way and just do one large weekly 80% WC prior to each Prazi dose. Given the stocking level for your tank, your water parameters should be fine. :)

Good luck!

My suggestion is made assuming that the cause is flukes. It is entirely possible that the cause for the flashing/flicking is due to something else. Since your tank stocking and maintenance is very well-kept, I think it is safe to rule out that it is a water quality issue. Let's see what other members have to say in regard to this.

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any updates?

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He's Still doing it:(

he also looks a bit skinny... noone else in the tank is doing any odd behavior however...

[*]Test Results for the Following:

[*]Ammonia Level? 0

[*]Nitrite Level? 0

[*]Nitrate level? 0

[*]Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)? 7.6

[*]Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)? 7.5

[*]Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? api

[*]Water temperature? 80

[*]Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? 60, 3 months

[*]What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)? custom 10g or so sump

[*]How often do you change the water and how much? 75% weekly

[*]how many days ago was the last water change and how much? yesterday, 75%

[*]How many fish in the tank and their size? 4 fish: 2.5" ranchu, 3" oranda, 3.5" oranda, 4.5" oranda

[*]What kind of water additives or conditioners? prime

[*]What do you feed your fish and how often? several times a day just what they'll eat

[*]Any new fish added to the tank? 3" oranda added a week ago, adapted great and seems happy as a clam:)

[*]Any medications added to the tank? prazi weekly after water change, 3% salt solution

[*]List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. been doing prazi and salt for a while now, the red-cap is still acting odd, flicking/flashing.. seems skinnier than he should be.

Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment.

[*]Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? none

[*]Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.? largest oranda flicking/flashing for 4 weeks now:/

how long should i be keeping up a 3% salt solution? i'm getting a bit nervous that sampson is still exhibiting his odd behavior:(

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Salt at .3 for no longer than 4 weeks. My oranda did the same scratching on the gravel when she had flukes. How long have you done the salt at .3%? Prazi is less effective in salt over .1%.

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it's been about 2.5-3 weeks since i've raised the salt to .3%, and 4+ weeks since i started prazi... should i back off the salt and continue prazi?

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I would probably try that. Any evidence of internal worms (white things being pooped out is the main gross evidence)?

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hmmm, my girlfriend just said that she has definitely seen white poop floating around in the tank... :(

would internal parasites agitate him enough to cause his erratic behavior?

what is the preferred method of treating for internal worms? i unfortunately don't have a qt tank set up currently:((

Thanks!!!

.gabe

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would internal parasites agitate him enough to cause his erratic behavior?

what is the preferred method of treating for internal worms? i unfortunately don't have a qt tank set up currently:((

I think fish that are affected by internal parasites are more prone to things like bottom sitting and weight loss (or not gaining weight and not having that round goldfish belly). I tend to equate the flicking/darting more with external/gill things, where the fish to trying to flick off the irritation.

If you suspect something internal, the best thing to use would be Jungle antiparasite medicated food. However, from the descriptions, I don't think that's what it is. It may very well be that because you've been salting at 0.3%, the Prazi isn't quite as effective. I would try to lower salt to 0.1% (or none at all since you've salted for sometime), and just do 2-3 more rounds of Prazi.

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hmmm, he definitely doesn't have the characteristic 'round belly' of a goldfish:/ and the last couple days his erratic swimming/flashing seems to have gotten worse:/

i'll go w/reducing the salt in .1% intervals over the next couple days and keep up the prazi treatment.. i just wish he seemed like he was getting better and not worse....

thanks!

.gabe

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Would it be possible for you to upload a video here so that we can see? Sometimes pics/vids are really helpful in D&D purposes.

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i'll take some new ones but i have these in the meantime...

http://lgb.aredcircle.com/flashingMaybe///

http://lgb.aredcircle.com/flashingMaybe1///

his behavior is basically the same but a bit worse and is more frequent.

tomorrow i'll take some new vids and upload...

Thanks!

.gabe

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he's also been sleeping at the top the last couple nights i've noticed...

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That looks parasitic to me...he looks a bit itchy. I would follow the plan of reducing the salt and keeping up with the prazi. I also suggest reducing that gravel bed. It hides too much bad stuff. Usually a very thin layer is the way to go if you want gravel (around 1/4 of an inch). And vacuum really well during water changes to get any parasite eggs. I think you have a more streamlined oranda, so it doesn't look like a fish wasting away due to tapes to me. Pretty fish!

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ok.. reduced salt, kept prazi up... he's still doing it... and noone else in the tank is...

what i did notice is that i almost Never see him poop.. so i did a 3 day fast, followed by shelled peas w/a grain of epsom salt... still little to no pooping.. beginning to this this is a swim bladder issue due to constipation rather than a parasitic thing, unless it's internal parasites that are effecting his digestion? what do you think my next step is? my feeding schedule is basically:

day1: peas

day2: gel food

day3: gel food

day4: soaked pellets

day5: soaked pellets

day6: gel food

day7: gel food

my gel food is basically whatever fish/scallops i buy for myself, boiled with some peas and a few oats, maybe some lettuce as well...

any ideas? do i maybe just have a fish w/chronic sbd?

as a side note his breeding tubercles are Very pronounced on both of his pectoral fins and his gil covers... he doesnt seem to be pestering any of the other fish in the tank however.. is this maybe some sort of breeding behavior when there's no females?

thanks as always!

.gabe

ammonia:0

nitrite:0

nitrate:10

ph 7.6

temp 79

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he's still doing it, and it seems to be getting worse.. i been feeding jungle's anti-parasite food last 3 days because i've seen some white stringy poop in the tank, but i'm pretty sure that's unrelated to the itchy oranda...

should i do a blanket treatment for external parasites since prazi isn't fixing the issue? would that do more harm than good maybe? do the meds that take out the other parasites kill/bump your cycle? i already have done .3% salt for 2 weeks, about a month ago...

really want to help my buddy! he has a few spots where scales seem missing as well:/ i'm guessing this is from rubbing against things, but he doesnt rub all that hard against objects when i see him... is this maybe a further symptom of something else?

thanks in advance as always...

.gabe

am: 0ppm

nitrite: 0 ppm

nitrate: 5-10ppm

ph: 7.6-7.8ish

temp 79f

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One thing I notice is that your tank runs a little warm. I like to keep mine a bit cooler than that. I couldn't get the video to play, but I would be inclined to try salt again if you only salted for two weeks. I like to salt at .3% for three to four weeks for parasites. I run Prazi with .1% salt. Since you started the AP food you will want to keep it up. Three days a week for four weeks.

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upping the salt to 0.3% (over 3x 0.1% increments of course)

since prazi doesnt seem to be killing whatever this is, going to stop (it's less effective at .3% salt anyways, right?)

so i recently noticed some marks on his fin, what look like .5mm long white lines, not hanging off the fin, but in the fin itself.. tried to take some pictures but the bubbles in the foreground look a Lot like the marks.. here's the closest i was able to get:

http://lgb.aredcircle.com/sampsonFinMark.jpg

what i circled could even be bubbles, but the marks look just like that... not raised at all, doesn't look like ich...

poor guy is still so itchy:(

amy, yah my tank runs warm:/ need to get some pc fans installed in the hood.. i usualy stick frozen water bottles/icepacks in the sump when it gets over 80, but they honestly don't seem to do much.

just wish there was something i could do to help poor sampson...

.gabe

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is it possible i'm dealing with trichodina?

a) i Did take some established filter media from the outdoor koi pond to establish this indoor tank...

b) one of my koi was flashing 5 months ago and i treated the whole pond with Tetra "pond fish treatment" (formerly DesaFin) and i haven't seen any of my koi flashing since... the active ingredients in this are listed as Formaldehyde and Quinine-hydrochloride... sounds like some nasty stuff...

so im wondering if i brought whatever was bothering my koi into my indoor tank when i initially used that filter media... and whatever that is seems to not be phased by prazi and/or salt...

i only did 2 weeks of .3% salt before so i'm thinking i'll try a 4 week period this time unless i see more serious symptoms... but i'm just throwing out that extra piece of information(the pond media&flashing koi) as i just remembered it myself...

thanks again everyone for the advice/help...

.gabe

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