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Oranda's Wen Looks Unhealthy

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[*]Ammonia Level? 0

[*]Nitrite Level? 0

[*]Nitrate level? (I don't have that test)

[*]Ph Level, Tank 7.4 (normal for the tank)

[*]Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? Aquarium Pharmaceuticals, Drops.

[*]Water temperature? 78F

[*]Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? 55gal, running over a year.

[*]What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)? Marineland canister filter magnum 350, and Fluval canister filter 205.

[*]How often do you change the water and how much? Monthly, 90%

[*]how many days ago was the last water change and how much? 20 days ago, 90%

[*]How many fish in the tank and their size? 2 goldfish, about 6" to 7" with tail, and 1 bristlenose pleco adult.

[*]What kind of water additives or conditioners? Tetra AquaSafe, Topfin Bacteria Supplement, Flourish excel, and Flourish comprehensive supplement.

[*]What do you feed your fish and how often? 2ce a day, they get a huge range of food including gel food, frozen veggies, frozen inverts, commercial dry food (soaked of course, or sinking).

[*]Any new fish added to the tank? No.

[*]Any medications added to the tank? Aquarium Pharmaceuticals "Aquarium Salt"

[*]List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank. Salt was added 4 days ago.

[*]Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? The wen has a "chapped" look to it, like chapped lips on a person.

[*]Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.? Slightly floaty. Not floating, but seems a bit less able to "steer". Not bad at all though. Never been floaty before.

Hi everyone!

Thank you for reading this. Meet my girl Krang who I have had for 3 years and 7 months. She started out as a red cap, but the color faded to just a few red dots on her wen. She has always been healthy but now something is up.

I went away for a week and left the fish with out food, lights on timers. When I returned, Krang's wen was looking "chapped". I was home for a week, and I was hoping that the "chapped" look would go away. (I figured she had just been trying to beg for food while I was away and the top of her wen was exposed to too much air, drying it out a bit, dont know if thats what happened though.) After the week, and not much change, I had to leave for another trip, but for 3 days this time. Before I left, I added 6 rounded tablespoonfuls (should have been more but that was all that remained in the container) of Aquarium Salt in hopes that, upon my return, Krang's wen would have healed up. When I got back, Krang's wen looked even more "chapped", even on the sides of her face, not just on top.

So that is where it stands. She still feeds eagerly and swims around looking for food. She does seem to lack a little strength in her swimming and seems a little floaty. She does not go upside down, but it sometimes looks as though she will. However she is quick to right herself.

Please look at the pictures below. The first 5 are healthy Kraing (they are several months old, but you get the idea) and the 2nd five are "chapped" Krang.

Krang and I thank you in advance for any help!

Healthy Krang:

5h_.jpg

1h_.jpg

2h_.jpg

4h_.jpg

3h_.jpg

Chapped Krang:

2s_.jpg

1s_.jpg

3s_.jpg

4s_.jpg

5s_.jpg

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i would def test your nitrates, this way we have all the info. If your only changing the water once per month, your nitrates could be high, but thts unknown right now. I dont have experience with these red marks but it could be a few things. Any ornaments he could have bumped into? the picture only shows the color, i cant see any chapped area...

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I agree, water changes once a month would mean your nitrates are probably high. And also that things like waste and bacteria may be building up (things that can't be tested using traditional test kits). Do a large water change as soon as you can, and then aim to do one at least once a week.

Salt is a good idea, but be careful as I don't think BN plecos can tolerate it very well.

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if you plan on salting, you can always put him in a quarentine tank with some used filter media from the big tank... If the big tank is fully cycled and can handle it

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Notice how the wen is smooth in this photo 2h_.jpg

but rough, ashy, and a bit segmented in the following photo 2s_.jpg

This is the concern I believe. The change in the wen's uniform appearance.

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ohh now i see. Hopefully someone has seen this before... this is a new one for me

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Hello. It looks to me like there is an infection coming through from under the wen (hence the reddish cast). Right now, I think raising the salinity to 0.3% is a very good idea, although if things do not improve in a week or so, we may need to approach this a little bit more aggressively. Do you have access to Jungle antibacterial food or Goldfish Connection's Medi-Gold? Hopefully, the salt will do the trick, but if possible, I would try to get either of these just so that if you need, you have it on hand.

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I have a fish with a simliar issue. I do think that yours is related to water qualty and that is the number one key to fixing this in the long run. I have also had some success with hydrogen peroxide dips. I use 1 part HP to 10 parts tank water and then a quick ten second dip. Techincally, this should be 1 part HP to 9 parts water, but I like to go a bit more conservatively. Do not do more than ten seconds and do once before putting back in the main tank. But weekly 50% water changes are a must.

Edited by amynmitchell

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I have a fish with a simliar issue. I do think that yours is related to water qualty and that is the number one key to fixing this in the long run. I have also had some success with hydrogen peroxide dips. I use 1 part HP to 1 parts tank water and then a quick ten second dip. Techincally, this should be 1 part HP to 9 parts water, but I like to go a bit more conservatively. Do not do more than ten seconds and do once before putting back in the main tank. But weekly 50% water changes are a must.

Amy, I have a question - when this happened with yours, did you do the dip only once, or more? Thanks :)

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Amy, do you mean 1 part hp and 10 parts water? Not 1 and 1?

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Thank you, Thank you for the replies!

In just a bit I will go out and get a nitrate test and some more salt. I remember reading a post talking about the different types of salt and what was best for what. So any suggestions on if I should get Aquarium salt, epson salt or kosher salt?

I had been recently reading about how water changes should happen more often (than I've been doing them) and I've been thinking about increasing (yet, through the 4 years I have been keeping goldfish and doing monthly water changes, I have always had very healthy fish). But it seems now is the time to start increasing them, if its for the fish babies, then I will do it! :)

Martha, you nailed it, The wen is "rougher, ashy and much more segmented". When I said that it looked "chapped", I meant that it looks red underneath yet the top layer looks a cloudy white (ashy) like when people get chapped lips. Also it looks swollen and each segment is defined or "split" like chapped lips. Even the skin under the eye is raised more and has a pink color under the skin yet a white film on top.

So raising the salt to 0.3% is how many tablespoons for a 55gal? Yes, I can get some antibacterial food, I will be ready if the salt does not work.

Wow, hydrogen peroxide dips! That sounds so scary and painful! Can you please explain more about that (or link to a post)? Was that used by itself or with salt and/or medicated food?

Thanks again for the help! I thank you and Krang thanks you!

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Hello. Your cheapest option is to get Morton's Canning & Pickling salt. It comes in a green four pound box for under $1.50. I use this personally after seeing it recommended here. Why pay 5x more for aquarium salt? :)

Let's assume that you have 50 gallons of water in the tank total. So, to raise salinity to 0.3%, you'll want to do this incrementally at 0.1% every 12 hours. 0.1% is 1 teaspoon per gallon, or 50 teaspoons for your size tank. Make sure the salt is dissolved before adding to tank, as salt particles can really irritate gills. Repeat this step twice more to reach 0.3%.

The HP dip really isn't that scary and is very well tolerated. You should be able to do the dip in conjunction with the salt treatment. However, I think Amy was suggesting to only do the dip + pristine water. I hope she will be able to clarify soon. In the mean time, I think you can get the salt but hold off to see what Amy says. Given that she's had similar issues with her fish, it might be best to go with her suggested plan first :)

The medicated food is the last option because it's aggressive. Let's have it ready but hope we won't need it.

@Midnight - I do HP dips before adding new fish to QT and once more before adding to main tank. I can testify that the dip, done properly is very well tolerated :)

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that hp dip does sound a little crazy. Ive seen it before, so i dont doubt it. but it seems scary

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I'm not sure the hp route is the way to go. It's not something that should be taken lightly. I personally would never do it - it's just too risky imho.

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I'm not sure the hp route is the way to go. It's not something that should be taken lightly. I personally would never do it - it's just too risky imho.

Martha, Amy, one of our helpers, explained that she's had this problem before and had used this method and clean water to resolve it. As far as I know, Amy is one of the most careful people on this forum, and her opinion means something here, as she had personal experience with this.

Everything carries a risk. This one much less than some others. :)

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Everyone's opinion means something Alex. However I don't think that someone should feel like they should be quiet just because they disagree with a treatment suggested. Don't patronize me.

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Everyone's opinion means something Alex. However I don't think that someone should feel like they should be quiet just because they disagree with a treatment suggested. Don't patronize me.

I'm not sure how I'm patronizing you. What I simply stated before was that an experienced member made a suggestion based on her experience. If you are going to disagree with it, and you certainly should voice your opinion when you do, but kindly do provide some solid reasons, as we are all here to learn.

I'm asking you to explain yourself when you disagree with some proposed treatment. That's hardly patronizing.

No medication, whether it's salt or Epsom or something else, is ever to be taken lightly as they are all stressors. That's why we don't advocate having anything in the water other than de-chlorinator unless other things HAVE to be added.

Thanks

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Nobody is patronizing anybody here Martha.

HP swabs are not harmful at all, if only done once in the affected area. More than once will begin to kill the good cells, so you only do the swab once. HP swabs are routinely recommended by many experienced members here for things like open scrapes or cuts that you want to keep very clean so they don't become infections.

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I didn't mean to start an arguement...sorry, guys. To be fair, I wouldn't say that the wen issue is totally resolved, but it does look much better. I would only do this once and to be clear I use it at one part HP to 10 parts water. I did a half cup HP and then 10 half cups water. This creates a safe solution. Techincally it should be 1 to 9, but I like the extra dilution. You don't dip more than ten seconds. What I did to make it as smooth as possible is to float a bowl in the tank with the solution in it, hand scoop Hatter in, count the ten seconds and hand scoop him out. Of course, I am super comfortable handling my fish and I hate nets.

Hatter has some fin issues as well, so I wanted to give it a whirl. I know that Ken does this method whenever moving a fish to a new tank, Alex does, and I believe Mikroll and Daryl use it as well.

I would also use the salt in the tank, but don't let that stop your water changes. I think salt could be a huge help here, but I would want to be very careful about watching the water params. I think that this is related to dirty water/junk in the tank.

Salt and clean water will probably clear this up, so don't stress about the HP if it makes you nervous. There are a couple of threads about it on here. And I agree about holding off on the medicated food until you try spotless water and some salt.

Thanks for the kind words, Alex. I am pretty careful and hate using any kind of meds. But sometimes you don't have a choice. And sometimes not worse is good enough. It is always a thin line.

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I agree, water changes once a month would mean your nitrates are probably high. And also that things like waste and bacteria may be building up (things that can't be tested using traditional test kits). Do a large water change as soon as you can, and then aim to do one at least once a week.

Salt is a good idea, but be careful as I don't think BN plecos can tolerate it very well.

i agree here, wc's need to be stepped up a heck of a lot.. whilst fish is ill, at least 50% ever other day with the removal of 2 cups of gravel per water change as i am sure there is bad bacteria breeding in there.

if you plan on salting, you can always put him in a quarentine tank with some used filter media from the big tank... If the big tank is fully cycled and can handle it

great advice..

Notice how the wen is smooth in this photo 2h_.jpg

but rough, ashy, and a bit segmented in the following photo 2s_.jpg

This is the concern I believe. The change in the wen's uniform appearance.

very good display of explaining martha! good work :)

I have a fish with a simliar issue. I do think that yours is related to water qualty and that is the number one key to fixing this in the long run. I have also had some success with hydrogen peroxide dips. I use 1 part HP to 1 parts tank water and then a quick ten second dip. Techincally, this should be 1 part HP to 9 parts water, but I like to go a bit more conservatively. Do not do more than ten seconds and do once before putting back in the main tank. But weekly 50% water changes are a must.

i do not believe HP dipping is necessary at this stage.. salt to 0.3% for 2-3 weeks is a more appropriate step for the begining of treatement. HP dipping is a little overkill for this issus atm in my honest opinion

I'm not sure the hp route is the way to go. It's not something that should be taken lightly. I personally would never do it - it's just too risky imho.

agreed!

I'm not sure the hp route is the way to go. It's not something that should be taken lightly. I personally would never do it - it's just too risky imho.

Martha, Amy, one of our helpers, explained that she's had this problem before and had used this method and clean water to resolve it. As far as I know, Amy is one of the most careful people on this forum, and her opinion means something here, as she had personal experience with this.

Everything carries a risk. This one much less than some others. :)

Alex, this putting everyone above everyone else where it concerns experience in most of your posting has to stop.. Martha is as valuable here as everyone else and you clearly are not understanding of the excellent contribution she has made to KOKO's prior to your becoming a member. it is in many ways derogatory and defaming and members here have a low tolerance of this behaviour. please refrain from making comments like this in the future.

Edited by stakos

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An hp or pp dip can be harsh on the fish and personally, I think it should be used as one of the last resorts. Especially if this is something that can be fixed with milder methods. I'm not saying it is (I'm on my phone on break at work so I can do speedy searching) but it very well could be something easily fixed and an hp or pp dip could do more harm than good. I myself wouldn't do a dip like that because I can get panicky when it comes to my fish.

Just my two cents on the matter.

Sorry I couldn't be of help in diagnosis, I'll take a better look when I get home and see if anything comes to mind.

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I didn't think Alex meant to be putting Martha down at all you guys. As I saw it, he was just explaining why he trusts Amy's advice, that's all. To be fair, Martha didn't really explain why she wouldn't use HP, she just said that she wouldn't. I think all Alex is saying is that it would be helpful to know why Martha thinks that way about HP. Our understanding at this point is that such a diluted amount of HP (1 part HP to 10 parts water for a mere 10 seconds) is not really that harsh at all. In fact, Ken (Dandy Orandas) gives his fish an HP dip any time he transfers them from one tank to another. And he even uses a stronger concentration; 1 part HP to 8 parts water. Now I'm not saying he's a god or can do no wrong (in truth, I don't even like the guy much), but surely he has seen thousands of goldfish and knows a lot about how to handle them properly.

Edited by Sakura

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Helen, you forgot to include my posts where I also advocated salting, not HP.

I think that a healthy discussion should involve something a little more than stating that it's risky. I certainly did not put anyone's experience above anyone else, but rather wanting that we have a rational discussion.

I'm sure Martha is a valuable member here, as I am sure you will say the same of EVERYONE on this board. However, to simply state that something is risky without much explanation isn't very helpful, as I'm sure you'll agree. This is especially true in a D&D thread.

Edit: I just saw Ashley's post, and that is an example of reasoned disagreement. Given then that there are multiple suggestions and the reasons behind them, it will certainly help the OP make a decision.

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Helen, you forgot to include my posts where I also advocated salting, not HP.

I think that a healthy discussion should involve something a little more than stating that it's risky. I certainly did not put anyone's experience above anyone else, but rather wanting that we have a rational discussion.

I'm sure Martha is a valuable member here, as I am sure you will say the same of EVERYONE on this board. However, to simply state that something is risky without much explanation isn't very helpful, as I'm sure you'll agree. This is especially true in a D&D thread.

how true, but your approach is not favourable.

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Nobody is patronizing anybody here Martha.

HP swabs are not harmful at all, if only done once in the affected area. More than once will begin to kill the good cells, so you only do the swab once. HP swabs are routinely recommended by many experienced members here for things like open scrapes or cuts that you want to keep very clean so they don't become infections.

No one is talking about an hp swap. They are recommending an hp bath.

I didn't think Alex meant to be putting Martha down at all you guys. As I saw it, he was just explaining why he trusts Amy's advice, that's all. To be fair, Martha didn't really explain why she wouldn't use HP, she just said that she wouldn't. I think all Alex is saying is that it would be helpful to know why Martha thinks that way about HP. Our understanding at this point is that such a diluted amount of HP (1 part HP to 10 parts water for a mere 10 seconds) is not really that harsh at all. In fact, Ken (Dandy Orandas) gives his fish an HP dip any time he transfers them from one tank to another. And he even uses a stronger concentration; 1 part HP to 8 parts water. Now I'm not saying he's a god or can do no wrong (in truth, I don't even like the guy much), but surely he has seen thousands of goldfish and knows a lot about how to handle them properly.

The way you and Alex keep throwing Ken's name around I wonder if he knows the extent of what is being said. If he in fact does this for his fish then he is like every other fish seller who only wants a beautiful product to sell.

You want my facts it's simple. Use of hp baths and pp baths shorten the fish's life by at least half. hp and pp are HARSH on the gills.

I normally ignore the both of you but it is getting to the point where ignoring your comments puts other peoples pets in jeopardy.

I don't want to argue on this thread with the two of you. The ONLY thing I care about is getting the OP help with their fish. If either of you want to talk to me about this privately you may do so.

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