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Prejudiced

Emergency! Severe Ammonia Burns.

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First off, not my fish guys. Your all aware I don't have any at the moment anyway.

Short backstory, these are a friends fish. She has a baby moor and a baby fantail acquired from a LFS being kept in a tank slightly under 10gal with roughly x9 filtration. That's cause for alarm right their, but hold tight. Koi and goldfish are regularly raised in such settings them moved to larger tanks by breeders, and that is apparently her plan. I can't get water parameters from her at the moment (not sure if she has access to her test kit) I've told her to start a 50% water change as a precaution. The fantail shows some severe ammonia burns, the moor it is hard to tell being black himself. I believe ammonia burns only show up black when healing? I have to confess my knowledge in this department is shallow, I've never really had to real with such things in my own tanks.

251422_2248426294014_1348911592_2587218_7204056_n.jpg

The fish when she got him above. I believe the black on the tail may have been a burn from shipping, or natural colour.

254716_2304524976446_1348911592_2667145_6086518_n.jpg

The fish as he is now above.

Symptoms- Bottom sitting, ammonia burns.

I'll be posting more info as it comes. She's a good girl and has kept fish quite successfully in the past, but I believe these are her first goldfish. Leave the "10gal per fish" chat to me, I'm currently giving her 'goldfish care 101' as we speak. Any help on treating this and pulling these guys through would be much appreciated. I'm going to travel to hers tomorrow if need be.

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I will edit this and fill it out as I gather more info from her.

[unknown]Ammonia Level?

[unknown]Nitrite Level?

[unknown]Nitrate level?

[unknown]Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)?

[7-8]Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)?

[unknown]Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops?

[Room temp]Water temperature?

[10gal running time unknown]Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running?

[Filter name unknown. Trickle system/overhead filter with roughly 9x turnover]What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)?

[unknown]How often do you change the water and how much?

[unknown]how many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change?

[2, less then 1 inch in body]How many fish in the tank and their size?

[unknown]What kind of water additives or conditioners?

[unknown, I assume prepared food like flakes]What do you feed your fish and how often?

[No]Any new fish added to the tank?

[unknown what meds. She has been 'nuking' them with store bought meds in an attempt to 'heal' them]Any medications added to the tank?

[*]List entire medication/treatment history for fish and tank.

Please include salt, Prazi, PP, etc and the approximate time and duration of treatment.

[severe ammonia burns]Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus?

[bottom sitting]Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.?

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Hi Amber!

From what I know the black comes after the ammonia exposure - even a few weeks after. The tail I think was coloring - which now has faded from stress or color change?

Fish looks pretty sad. I think daily water changes (as long as she has good tap water to begin with!

And obviously no more meds :(

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bring her some Prime Amber, do you want me to send you some?

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Yes, from the looks of things, water quality is a major issue here. I'm glad you are helping your friend. I hope you can advise her to do 50% WC daily to help out the fish. :)

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Disregard, the poor thing passed away. Thanks for the prompt reply Captain :) I'm still recommending the water changes for the moor. He hasn't shown any signs yet, but being black they might just not be visible. No unusual behaviours on him either.

I'm in quite the frame of mind to go and flog the employees of the LFS though. She got these two from the same place I got one of my fish and the advice they have given her just to get her to buy (USELESS, and possibly damaging meds) has driven me up the wall.

Mods/helpers, feel free to delete this/move it to the appropriate forum :)

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sorry to hear hun :(

i have moved the topic as requested.

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oh darn!

fish meds should really be locked up or something. the fish looked perfectly happy in the first photo :(

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Thanks Helen :)

I should say thanks for the prompt reply, EVERYONE :) You all jumped in as I was typing that one up :)

I've got her on the 50% w/c. I'm going to swing by the LFS tomorrow and get her a bottle of prime as reccomended as a preventative measure for the moor. I'm currently in my parents town, the place where I had Luna and the gang and I can say the tap water here is pretty good. Comes out nearly spot on 7, no need to buff it and its ammonia free. Fish keepers dream!

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oh darn!

fish meds should really be locked up or something. the fish looked perfectly happy in the first photo :(

I REALLY think this is a classic case of meds doing more harm then good. After talking to her, I think it was a downward spiral. The fish had some burns from shipping on the tail (or possibly natural black marks and not burns at all!) and some shredded fins (more shipping trauma I think), she went to the LFS who (of course) gave her crummy advice in order to make a sale on meds. From the sounds of it those meds caused a crash, and a week or so later these burns shown up. By the time she contacted me (The fish had 'black marks' but was otherwise happy, so she treated again, it was only when he started bottom sitting that I got the call for help) I think he was on his way out.

The moor seems pretty perky and happy. I think he may have some burns, but that remains to be seen. W/Cs and prime hopefully will help!

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Disregard, the poor thing passed away. Thanks for the prompt reply Captain :) I'm still recommending the water changes for the moor. He hasn't shown any signs yet, but being black they might just not be visible. No unusual behaviours on him either.

I'm in quite the frame of mind to go and flog the employees of the LFS though. She got these two from the same place I got one of my fish and the advice they have given her just to get her to buy (USELESS, and possibly damaging meds) has driven me up the wall.

Mods/helpers, feel free to delete this/move it to the appropriate forum :)

Sorry to hear that the fish died. And I don't want to sound cruel at all, but hopefully this will be her first lesson on exactly why we say the things we do. I'm very sad for everyone. But, anyway. It's time to move on and do things right, hopefully, this time!

You're going to have the Goldfish 101 talk with her and that will go a long way to helping her, so not gonna say anything on that.

You said she has test kits, and as ammonia burns are from high ammonia, I might wonder if only changing 50% of the water was enough. I'd test the water to be sure. Bottom line, the test kits will tell you, so make sure you do the tests with her too, to make sure she knows how to do them right and so you can see what the readings are so you can better advise her on whether she needs to change more. If it were me, I'd probably do a really large water change of 90% just to, basically, start over again. And, make sure she understands WHY we have to test the water. I mean, for instance, we test the water, we get a high ammonia reading, we do a large water change. We know what it means and what we have to do. But, I'm sure people who don't understand the nitrogen cycle or what constitutes "high ammonia" do their tests because someone told them they're supposed to, but because they don't know why, they just look at the number and say, "okay......" So, just make sure she understands how much water should be changed depending on the reading she gets.

And, Prime is great for helping with the ammonia, but it's not a replacement for large, regular water changes, so make sure she understands that too.

I'm also sure you will advise her not to replace this fish with another one and why.

Thanks Helen :)

I should say thanks for the prompt reply, EVERYONE :) You all jumped in as I was typing that one up :)

I've got her on the 50% w/c. I'm going to swing by the LFS tomorrow and get her a bottle of prime as reccomended as a preventative measure for the moor. I'm currently in my parents town, the place where I had Luna and the gang and I can say the tap water here is pretty good. Comes out nearly spot on 7, no need to buff it and its ammonia free. Fish keepers dream!

I just wanted to say one thing about the pH at 7. It's okay, not great, but okay. But barely okay. It really ought to be like 7.6 - 8.6, but if it's solid and stable at 7, then it would be okay. And you said "nearly." What does that mean? A little above 7 or a little below 7? If it's a little above, that's better, if it's a little below, that's really not good at all. But, even at 7, it has to have a really strong foundation. And, the only way you're going to know how solid the foundation is is to get KH and GH tests. For water with only a 7.0 pH, for goldfish, you must know what your KH and GH are. If you're already testing this water for KH and GH, then great, but if not, I would highly encourage you to get a test kit for KH and GH. If these tests come out reading low, you WILL need to buffer the water.

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omg that poor fishie looked so sad in the last photo cry3.gif

I'm so happy that she has a friend that is willing to go the extra mile to help her out so congrats to you for being awesome! Hopefully the other fish will be able to thrive with your help and care! gudluksn.gif

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I've been discussing this situation at length with Helen. Long form short, we believe their was more to this situation then what it first seen. I have reason to think some of the information I was given may be incorrect, and that the fish may have been flushed. I am not a happy camper. After discussion with Helen as well as an associate from when I used to breed fighting fish I decided the best course of action was to talk to the girl about the well being of the remaining fish. I was perfectly happy to take the remaining fish in order to QT him in the greenwater pond at my parents house (which is currently empty of fish, but has a cycle thanks to the natural process of decaying leaves, insects, etc in the water. A water change and some preliminary prep would have had it up to scratch)and then transfer him to the pond where the rest of "my" fish currently reside (As you guys know my mother/myself-though they are really hers, I just care for them- have a m/f pair of shubunkins, a m/f pair of sarasas and a bunch of rescue fish that now reside in a larger pond at a friends as they outgrew our current at home set up) after a period of QT. Despite initial agreement on the welfare of the fish, and that in return for this I would put her onto Jodi-Lea (Aus transhipper of bettas) provided she researched prior to acquiring any more fish, this plan has not come to fruition. I doubt I will be able to move the remaining fish to a better set up.

Things that differed to what I was told was the gallons of the tank, the filter and the output, amongst others.

I just wanted to say one thing about the pH at 7. It's okay, not great, but okay. But barely okay. It really ought to be like 7.6 - 8.6, but if it's solid and stable at 7, then it would be okay. And you said "nearly." What does that mean? A little above 7 or a little below 7? If it's a little above, that's better, if it's a little below, that's really not good at all. But, even at 7, it has to have a really strong foundation. And, the only way you're going to know how solid the foundation is is to get KH and GH tests. For water with only a 7.0 pH, for goldfish, you must know what your KH and GH are. If you're already testing this water for KH and GH, then great, but if not, I would highly encourage you to get a test kit for KH and GH. If these tests come out reading low, you WILL need to buffer the water.

While this is some very sound advice, The LAST thing I am going to be doing here is telling her to start messing with the water, whether it be gH, kH or pH. She's already way in over her head. I do not want to compound that. The water itself comes out of the tap at 7.1-7.2, well buffered and ammonia free. I'd rather have her on that then messing with the water chemistry. (Did you see the shells in the bottom? I believe they were their to buffer the water further... Higher pH, worse burns, and so on. I'm pretty peeved atm) The water here is sourced from a stone bottom lake in the mountains and minimally treated before being piped to the town. I would have to access a test kit in order to get exact readings as I cannot recall them off the top of my head. :) I don't even believe now she had test kits. If she had been honest right up we possibly could have done something. But like I said above I'm doubting how much more I can help out here. ):

Edited by Amber

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:goodpost:goodpost she's not responsible enough for this hobby.

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Get her a squeaky toy fish.

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Get her a squeaky toy fish.

:rofl:rofl

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:goodpost:goodpost she's not responsible enough for this hobby.

Weeeeelllllll.................... after all...... they're ONLY goldfish!:u035: They don't live very long anyway, right?:no: And you can always win more at the fair!:krazy:

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I swear Lynda if she gets another one I will be pretty peeved. I've advised her against it, but you can't really force someone into doing what you want. :krazy:

I MAY get her that squeeky toy. :whistle

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