Half Of Squishface's Wen Has Turned Blood Red

[Imber]

This morning Squishface was doing worse She was lying on her side and refusing to eat her food. Her redness looks better, but obviously there is internal stuff going on. I still have a little bit of hope though. I stopped by my wonderful dog/cat vet and even though he doesn't treat fish, he sold me .5 CC of Baytril pre-loaded into a syringe so I can just give her .1 CC a day. I've never given injections though so I am going to be watching the video a bunch before I get up the nerve. I know I have some finquel or clove oil around here that I've successfully used in the past for anesthetic so I'm going to look around and try to find that. This is scary stuff, but I know with her refusing food this is probably her best bet so I'm going to try to be brave!

[Imber]

I watched the video and think I can do it, but I'm waiting for a go ahead. The one thing that worries me is that in reading it seems that fish that have been on their side are bad for injections. She was lying on her side this morning and seems to settle to that position, but when she moves around she's upright. It's always the same side so I don't know if she has trapped air or something or if she's really just going into the bad curled pose. Since she's not eating I don't know how much I can really do outside of an injection so just waiting and hoping she gets better doesn't seem like a good option at this point either.

[dnalex]

Hi, Imber. Sakura, one of our members here has an excellent video of Baytril injection also. I take the liberty of including here for you to look at.

I think that if she isn't eating, then the only alternative you have is injection or force feeding. Given the vet had given you the Baytril, try that and best of luck to the two of you!

[Imber]

Well I went ahead and did the first injection. I tried to do it exactly like the video and I did take a scale off, but I dabbed the area with biobandage and she seemed to be fine with it. I didn't use the clove oil. I know it's pretty harsh, but she's at the point where I think she probably won't make it anyway since nothing has seemed to improve her and she's not eating so I can't keep giving her med food. I tried to make her eat it, but uses all of the strength she has left to spit it out.

[koko]

Just a thing about the injection, so you dont have to push the needle in hard. When your ready to inject take the tip of the needle and you can lift the scaled alittle and go in under it, this way there isnt much force in the needle.

I hope that makes since

[dnalex]

Helen has a very good video of "force feeding" with a syringe. I can't seem to find it, but I will PM her to ask her to link it to you.

[Imber]

Yes it does, thank you That's what I tried to do... and I had it perfect then she wiggled and it popped out. I got it back in at the same spot though and was able to finish. By that time my hands were shaking pretty bad. My vet put the whole .5 cc of baytril in a single syringe so I just used .1 cc.

[Imber]

I tried to force feed ziggy when he was really bad. I soaked the food in a bit of water and then syringed it up and held his head just above the water and squirted it in then tried to hold his mouth shut... It was not fun at all! I'd love some good tips if there's anything that would help me end up with less food spit back all over me.

[Captain Findus Goldfish]

I tried to force feed Dr.House when she was really bad and her mouth was stuck. SHe was a tiny fish and my vet used a catheter. THen you mush up the food with water - put it in a syringe - attach the catheter (or you can use airline tubing etc) to the syringe and put that in her mouth. The thing is that you just place it in the mouth and the fish can choose whether to eat it or not.

Real force feeding places the tube directly in the belly. But that is much harder to do.

[dnalex]

Real force feeding places the tube directly in the belly. But that is much harder to do.

This is absolutely true, and it's called entubation feeding, according to the Fancy Goldfish book. The fish has to be at least 3 inches when doing this, not counting caudal fins. What I really like about Helen's method is that it doesn't require the catheterization, and it seems that the fish is still getting the food by dint of opening its mouth

Imber, I'm certain Helen will come by when she wakes up to link you to the video. I think it's 4:20am in Australia right now

[amynmitchell]

Just want to say hang in there. She is such a stunning fish and I hope she improves.

[fireevt]

I'm going to go really simple. Lack of oxygen. The high temp will allow significantly less oxygen in the water. It look likes increased blood flow. They sell oxygenating tabs for ponds to help with this problem. I have moved tanks to the basement or garage during hot weather. I don't have central air so I can't cool every room. Also, increase temp generally increase infection rates. The infections take over faster and with more force.

[dnalex]

I'm going to go really simple. Lack of oxygen. The high temp will allow significantly less oxygen in the water. It look likes increased blood flow. They sell oxygenating tabs for ponds to help with this problem. I have moved tanks to the basement or garage during hot weather. I don't have central air so I can't cool every room. Also, increase temp generally increase infection rates. The infections take over faster and with more force.

Chris, would you mind explaining where you are coming from with this? Imber's tank is at 78, which is very acceptable for goldfish, especially during summer months. Also, higher temps do NOT lead to red veins. Or, at least I do not know of a source that says that. If you do, could you please show us? Fang, who during the summer months have higher temps than 78, do not have these issues. When you are talking about detrimental temps, it is when it is above 86 for long periods of time.

Also, given the other symptoms presented, it clearly isn't just dilated vessels. So please be more cognizant of the complete picture when you are offering a diagnosis. We all want to help, and I completely understand that.

Of course, having a well oxygenated tank is always important.

[Captain Findus Goldfish]

I have my fish in the high 70s all year round and I think it really helps their digestion.

[fireevt]

This is the best I can find at short notice. It basically just says lack of oxygen leads to stress and stress leads to red veins in the body and fins. The tank started out at 82 degrees. At say 74 degrees you have about twice as much dissolved oxygen. It also doesn't matter what is done to the tank mechanically, it will not be able to increase dissolved oxygen. Many medications also decrease the waters ability to hold oxygen. http://www.thekoiclinic.co.uk/stress-koi.html#

Also be very careful with tube type feeding. If you don't do this exactly correct you can cause damage to your fish internally possibly leading to death. I would recommend having someone with experience do it.

Edited August 11, 2011 by Goldfish Chris

[dnalex]

This is the best I can find at short notice. It basically just says lack of oxygen leads to stress and stress leads to red veins in the body and fins. The tank started out at 82 degrees. At say 74 degrees you have about twice as muck dissolved oxygen. It also doesn't matter what is done to the tank mechanically, it will not be able to increase dissolved oxygen. Many medications also decrease the waters ability to hold oxygen. http://www.thekoiclinic.co.uk/stress-koi.html#

Also be very careful with tube type feeding. If you don't do this exactly correct you can cause damage to your fish internally possibly leading to death. I would recommend having someone with experience do it.

All of this is known. Please be patient and wait until Helen links her video. You will see that her method is far from traumatizing. Also, there comes a time when force feeding is necessary, as medication needs to be delivered. However, luckily Imber has two options, and it will be up to her to choose on or both of these. Thanks

Also, this tank has not been medicated. It has salt. That is it. Medicated food does not count, since it does not go into the water. I realize the thread is long, and it does tank some time to digest, but all the information is there.

Lastly, I mean no offense, but please be careful of making a diagnosis based on your reading from a website. I personally have dealt with dilated vessels in the veins, as have many others here on the board. None of these were from lack of oxygen, but rather having to do with issues of water quality, such as ammonia build up, cycle bump, bacterial infection due to scraping on substrate, etc.

Furthermore, this is not a matter of simple lack of oxygen. It is clear to a number of people that there is something internal going on, including the vet, who prescribed Baytril. If this were a matter of lack of oxygen, the first thing you'll see is gulping at the surface and hanging near the source of greater oxygen dissolved, which is near the filter output.

[fireevt]

Please read my post carefully. I did not state that anyone medicated a tank, only that some medications decrease the waters ability to hold oxygen. Also I am giving my personal advise. Last, I am a Aquatic professional not just a hobbyist. I currently work with a major zoo and work with vets. Vets call me to help with diagnoses. I am also in college taking vet studies. I also worked at a major pet retailer and had the lowest aquatic lost in the country. Robert Fenner and two major aquatic wholesalers came to may store to see what I was doing right. These are just a few of my accomplishments.

I don't want to argue with people, just give advice.

Thanks for your understanding.

[Imber]

Thanks I do appreciate all the input that I can get and will take all things into consideration. I tried my best to keep her tank cool during the time that my AC was out(4 days total, and we went with the company that could get it replaced the fastest). She was in the coolest room in the house with an open window and I rotated in ice packs and increased the surface agitation to try to keep her tank as cool as possible. I don't have a basement so that wasn't an option. She didn't really show any signs of hanging out at the top while the AC was out except to check out/try to eat the ice packs. Her red wen didn't show up until a couple days after the AC was fixed and her water temp was stabilized and her fins being frayed at the end with the blood in spots on her body showed with increasing lethargy so it seemed like a progression that went... stress period -> opportunistic bugs(parasites that caused infection/just bacteria) -> subsequent infection that spread around to different areas and then went internal and is now causing her to be listless and reject food. I probably made a mistake in choosing to give her medigold instead of metro and that is my biggest regret. I should have just waited until Koko's was back up and asked, but I panicked and picked the one that seemed to go with her symptoms. Medi was probably too hard on her kidneys and now my scrambling to fix her as she fades away probably won't help, but it's really all I can do without a time machine.

[fireevt]

Thanks for the clarification. Usually I have the person in front of me and we can go back and forth till we figure it out. As a club member and when I was a pet store employee I would also make house calls.

[Helen]

here is when i had to force feed Amico.. lets keept this nice for Imber, i am sure she has plenty to worry about already.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwTpEiMkZRU

[amynmitchell]

That is what is hard. We can only go here by the facts we get online. I can't tell you how many times I wish someone could come to my house and see what is happening. I think everyone's opinions are highly valuable on all threads, especially D & D threads. Sometimes one thought can open up a whole world of ideas that we hadn't seen before. Nothing wrong with asking each other for clarification, but we all want to respect each other's opinions. I know that often there isn't one "right" treatment for the host of problems we might face. There are certainly better options.

Imber, I was worried about the medi-gold as well, but you had to try something, so I understand. I really hope the baytril works for you.

[fireevt]

I would recommend manually feed with a syringe. I don't recommend tube feeding, gavage, or enteral feeding and force feeding. This is basically when you stick a tube down their throat. I come work around the medical field and force feeding is different to me. Sorry for the confusion.

[dnalex]

I would recommend manually feed with a syringe. I don't recommend tube feeding, gavage, or enteral feeding and force feeding. This is basically when you stick a tube down their throat. I come work around the medical field and force feeding is different to me. Sorry for the confusion.

This is why I recommended Helen's method in the first place. It's non-invasive and seems to work rather well

[amynmitchell]

[Chrissy_Bee]

This is the best I can find at short notice. It basically just says lack of oxygen leads to stress and stress leads to red veins in the body and fins.

I think the main thing to note (not just in this case, but always) is that goldfish can become stressed very easily - from changes in temperature, oxygen levels, ammonia, etc. Sometimes even by things we wouldn't even think about. And stress can compromise the fish's immune system, leading to infection. There's a great new book out called "Fundamentals of Ornamental Fish Health" that has a whole chapter on the effects of stress (with references to some great papers). I think in Imber's case stress may have been a factor for sure, though if it was oxygen levels or temperature fluctuations I don't know. I do know that Imber did her best..more than most fish keepers would Sometimes no matter how hard we try, these things happen

Please read my post carefully. I did not state that anyone medicated a tank, only that some medications decrease the waters ability to hold oxygen. Also I am giving my personal advise. Last, I am a Aquatic professional not just a hobbyist. I currently work with a major zoo and work with vets. Vets call me to help with diagnoses. I am also in college taking vet studies. I also worked at a major pet retailer and had the lowest aquatic lost in the country. Robert Fenner and two major aquatic wholesalers came to may store to see what I was doing right. These are just a few of my accomplishments.

I don't want to argue with people, just give advice.

Thanks for your understanding.

We know you're just trying to help and give advice, which is always appreciated. This is a public forum after all, everyone is welcome and encouraged to participate

As long as we are all respectful of one another and don't jump to conclusions without getting all the facts, it's great to give advice (that we are confident in) to those in need. As for credentials, many of us on this board work professionally with fish and animals and have educations based in biology, biochemistry and medical sciences. While not everyone shares these facts, you can check out the thread on professions to see what some people here do We are very lucky to have a board filled with very educated and experienced fish keepers. In addition, we also have some members with years of fish keeping experience who have learned more than many of us ever did in college. All in all, this is a great group and we always learn a lot from one another.