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Imber

Half Of Squishface's Wen Has Turned Blood Red

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yep.. vet said that it's like treating cancer with chemotherapy and we know how toxic chemotherapy is.. i sure won't ever condider it on my fish again.

Edited by stakos

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I'd also advise trying the more gentle treatments like salt and (half dose) melafix before moving on to harsher treatments like PP (it may well be 'external', but that doesn't mean it's gentle. It's still a shock for the fish, likely with lasting consequences with respect to longevity).

:exactly

I think people are entitled to use medications if they wish, but I know what they can do to internal organs so I don't jump to use them - no offence to anyone, but that is my approach and has been the one often suggested here over the years. Everyone is entitled to give advice, this is a public forum after all :) I just want to share my thoughts and approach.

Here is the MSDS sheet for PP. http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9927406

Note

The substance may be toxic to kidneys, liver, skin,

central nervous system (CNS). Repeated or prolonged exposure to the substance can produce target organs damage.

Of course when used properly it's not going to cause instant organ damage in your fish, but it certainly isn't harmless. Chemicals and medications can be a necessarily evil in fish keeping, but we need to be careful not to quickly use them. And it's always good to remember that websites that sell and endorse medications will often advise their use "as soon as symptoms appear"...why wouldn't they? That will prompt people to buy more! :P

But to get back on topic...of course if this fish gets worse medications may indeed be needed. I just think that erring on the side of caution is always best, particularly when a fish has just been through a period of stress.

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PP, potassium permaganate, correct? This stuff kills organic matter and is used as a disinfectant with aquarium equipment. Why in the22 would you want to put your fish in a bucket of it? Diluted or no it can still be dangerous and it is still a harsh treatment.

Why is everyone jumping to the harshest treatment they can think of? When you have a tummy ache do you run to the hospital and have your appendix removed? No, you don't because that is over the top for something that could very well just be gas.

It is entirely possible that is was a fast color change or that it is internal. If it is internal then a pp dip will do nothing but stress the fish out and shorten its lifespan.

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa027

The link above is from the University of Florida Institute of Food & Agricultural Sciences, detailing the use of potassium permanganate as an effective means to get rid of external parasites and bacteria. It is by no means the harshest treatment you can find. Moreover, if you'll look in both the Fancy Goldfish book & Noga's book, PP use is well described, along with our favorite, salt. I would recommend you do these readings before making a public statement about how harsh PP is.

Daryl & Trinket, both esteemed members of this forum, have also suggested PP as a valid treatment.

Lastly, PP has been used as an effective ornamental fish keeping treatment for many decades. It has fallen out of favor recently because of governmental regulations because this substance can be used for other means, not because it is a carcinogen.

Back to the topic at hand, as stated by numerous posts above, the thing to do now is to wait for a day and see, as the OP has already salted.

Edit: I agree with Chrissy. PP, along with salt, Epsom, or any of these other "mild" treatments are still treatments. Overuse and abuse will lead to harm. Salt, when given at the doses we use on a fish with badly damaged gills, will also do just as much harm. As this forum has always advocated - JUDICIOUSLY pick ONE course of treatment, exercise PATIENCE, and don't panic and add multiple things.

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the noga book says that PP is highly toxic if the PH is high.. i have done my readings Alex and i am confident that PP should NOT be recommended in this instance. perhaps you missed reading either the OP's params or that section of the book. nowhere do is see the use of PP being offered with the danger it poses to a high PH level.

now, we know that the normal recommended PH level in a tank should be around 7.4-7.6.. hence why the normal API PH kit stops at 7.6... to get an accurate reading if the test result exceeds this, one must purchase the "high range PH test kit"

this automatically tells us that the OP who posted a PH level of 8 shows that her current standing will make using PP toxic and cause more harm than good to her fish..

treating goldfish takes time.. there is no quickfix.. anything that is sold as a quickfix presents other problems to the health of the goldfish..

we all know what overmedicating is wrong. but everyone should practice the basics before meds ALWAYS. which means fresh clean declorinated water.. first meds step should always be salt at 0.1% it fixes so much.

Edited by stakos

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Helen, PP is not to be used in the main tank. This is done in a specially prepared bath, where things like pH are controlled.

I agree with you that PP is not needed here. I stated before that it COULD be helpful, but if you'll read above, my suggestion for the OP was to just keep the fish in the salt and only that until further development :)

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PP is certainly not the harshest treatment out there, but it is definitely capable of doing harm. Darryl and Imo also agree with this and that it can potentially shorten the lifespan of the fish. There's a fantastic new book out on Ornamental Fish health (edited by Helen Roberts) that states more than once that though PP has traditionally been used extensively, it can cause damage and milder treatments are often recommended.

BUT as I said, it's not like PP is the devil. I just don't want people to think it's too mild either. I also don't want to come off as argumentative (it's hard to convey tone on the internet!), this is a good discussion (sorry Imber for getting a little OT).

edit: I just saw Stako's response and she's exactly right. PP is toxic in higher pH water, it can also be inactivated by organic compounds (not as much of an issue with a dip).

Edited by Chrissy_Bee

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The most compelling argument for us to try to veer away from PP as a treatment is that it is becoming increasingly difficult to obtain in many places.

Chrissy, antibiotics also can potentially shorten the lives of our fish also, or make them prone to future issues. Hence, as with all considerations, it is never recommended as a prophylactic treatment.

Also, just for the record, salt is my treatment of choice. It is only when salt fails that I would consider alternatives, of which PP is one of several.

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PP is not at all aggressive to fish. It has the same stress factor as salt. You can see the fish inside the tub hanging out totally relaxed.

:exactly

I actually think that salt can be more stressful at higher percentages.

I am sorry. I have to disagree with this. PP has more risk factors than salt. It should only be used by experienced fishkeepers.

I would never recommend it for fish with weakened gills or labored breathing or even weak fish or small fish. And most importantly for any panicky or new fish keeper. The point is here, this bath is being advertised as a cure all and it is not. The borderline between danger dose and safe dose is like with all disinfectant type baths tricky. You guys may be very good with that but measurements are troublesome for many people and people panic, forget to cover the tank or add extra air, check pH etc.....these are real dangers.

Some fish will develop pinprick holes in their fins, others may get gill damage. Yes it may kill protozoan (only) ecto parasites and (some) bacteria but it seems like PP has taken over this forum as a one and only cure for everything. It is not.

Imber I'm sorry, this thread has become a PP discussion :) Will read back more later, have to run to work now.

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Chrissy, antibiotics also can potentially shorten the lives of our fish also, or make them prone to future issues. Hence, as with all considerations, it is never recommended as a prophylactic treatment.

:exactly It's why I never use or recommend them unless the diagnosis is certain. No medication is safe or harmless, for any species. It's why we always try to go with the basics first...clean water, good food, eliminate possible sources of trouble in the tank. Sometimes we forget that fish do have immune systems and when these conditions are corrected, they are able to fight off infections on their own.

Has there been any change with sweet little Squishface?

Edited by Chrissy_Bee

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:exactly It's why I never use or recommend them unless the diagnosis is certain. No medication is safe or harmless, for any species. It's why we always try to go with the basics first...clean water, good food, eliminate possible sources of trouble in the tank. Sometimes we forget that fish do have immune systems and when these conditions are corrected, they are able to fight off infections on their own.

As an immunologist, I couldn't agree more. Treatments that aim only to kill off pathogens and destroying the host immune system/response at the same time will inevitably fail. Actually, I don't think there are any treatments that are able to kill of 100% of the pathogens without doing great damage to the host.

Imber, how is the fish doing?

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She's still doing about the same. Her wen looks unchanged. She is definitely lethargic and is mostly just sitting in the corner. I still just have the low salt dose in there. Like I said before, I did use PP when she was a baby, but that was mainly because I truly believed that if I didn't knock as many bugs off of her as I could, then she was going to die. I really doubted that she would make it through that first week, but I figured that the drastic treatment at least had the chance to save her. When I've used it I've been careful to acclimate the fish down to my tap ph first(which is no doubt stressful no matter how slowly I do it). I also have the problem that my water browns it out pretty quickly so it's hard to say how much it does on a bath, and I prefer baths to dips because they're less of a shock. Anyway, I consider it a blessing that she's been with me this long considering the state that she came to me in, but I know she is a more sensitive, fragile fish because of her childhood so I hope I can resolve this with minimal treatment. My mmeds and medigold have shipped so hopefully they'll get here about the time that we can decide if they are necessary. Thank you guys for all the help. I'll check back in tomorrow with an update. I hope it's a good one... nights are always the scariest with a sick fish :(

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Sick fish is never fun. It was a disaster when Rowan got sick and I couldn't figure out what was wrong.

Is the temp still high or have you been able to get it back to normal? I've noticed goldfish tend to get lethargic in warmer water.

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My advice, listen to the Mods. I know that other members input can be valuable and just as important but if a Mod is going in another direction with treatment I would follow them. This is an open forum, but we have Mods for a reason. I really hope that all of the comments (correct or jumping the gun) come from a place of kindness and wanting to help each other in a time of need and not just to sound smart or 'right'. I also think the search function can be an important tool; you can look up similar posts, and even past posts from members that can shed light on the type of experience the member (actually) has.

Here is the MSDS sheet for PP. http://www.sciencela...?msdsId=9927406

so I'm reading over your link and find out that you don't want to get pp on your skin... blink.gif I have had stained fingers in the past from disinfecting my equipment!! krazy.gifkrazy.gifkrazy.gif And I didn't get any medical treatment for it! Maybe the exposure is why I'm so forgetful?? spit.gif

but back to the important matter,

nights are always the scariest with a sick fish :(

I definitely know how that feels. k055.gif Hang in there, we're rooting for you and Squishface! gudluksn.gif

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Sending positive thoughts your way :) - I hope things get better soon!!

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so I'm reading over your link and find out that you don't want to get pp on your skin... blink.gif I have had stained fingers in the past from disinfecting my equipment!! krazy.gifkrazy.gifkrazy.gif And I didn't get any medical treatment for it! Maybe the exposure is why I'm so forgetful?? spit.gif

I think gloves should be in order for you from now on if you use this! :P

I'm sorry to hear she hasn't improved, but not change for the worse is also good. :heart

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Her head looks much better this morning. It has faded to a barely noticeable light pink. She was still pretty lethargic this morning, though. The temperature has evened out at right around 76-78. We had a new heat pump system installed on monday so no more fluctuating temps in the house. I had to kind of nudge her around to get her to notice her food and then she swam around a bit and foraged for it and ate it all. Now she's hanging around at the top and swimming around when I come to see her, but she's a little offbalanced. She looks bloated. She doesn't seem to be dropsying, but her body is just fatter and more stretched looking than normal. I hope she isn't gravid... I had been seeing zig-zag poops the last couple of days. Her pea poo from yesterday's pea looked healthy. Also, her tail looks a little ragged with a couple of red spots along the bottom. I'll probably do another 50% w/c change today and kind of scrape the bottom of the tank to get any slime/bacteria/poo that is on the bottom that she might be sitting in.

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Well that is great news about her head! :D

Keep up the good work and keep a close eye as you've been doing. Hopefully she'll start getting some energy back soon :heart

Keep us posted :D

Also, if you could get photos of her tail and the spots, etc. that would be helpful.

Edited by Chrissy_Bee

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Since you know she's eating (yay! good sign!) I would fast her then give her some more peas. Water changes are a great idea! I am SO glad there's been some improvement in her! :heart

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Me too! Pleased to hear this :) Maybe she is just gravid ( you cant fake those telling zig zag poops! ) and the stress is keeping her bottom sitting and lethargic and in turn lowering her immune response so the red appears. All opportune bacteria in the cleanest water will target a sitting fish. And the wen is yummy fatty tissue area :heart

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Thank you all for the help! Today she's pretty much back to normal. All of the redness is gone. She's still hanging out on the bottom some, but she gets up and zooms(waddles) around when she sees me. She has had a lot of wen growth just recently so I bet it's getting pretty heavy and she's still adjusting to it too. What's funny is that she's been the only fish in the house for a while, and when I got her a new bubble bar at the pet store I fell in love with a betta and brought him home with me. Then when I went to put her bubble bar in is when I noticed her red head. It's like she was acting out and taking revenge for no longer being the only fish!

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Yay! That was a scary moment! I'm so glad things are back to normal :)

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All opportune bacteria in the cleanest water will target a sitting fish. And the wen is yummy fatty tissue area :heart

SO true. I've had fish develop weird red patches or streaks after periods of mild stress for no obvious reason at all. My usual approach of not panicking and being vigilant about the water usually is all that's needed. Like I said before, fish do have immune systems, often times they can heal themselves with just a little help :)

She has had a lot of wen growth just recently so I bet it's getting pretty heavy and she's still adjusting to it too.

That is very possible. I've had a few fish grow monstrous wens and they always went through periods of lethargy and inactivity during and after the biggest growth spurts. Growing takes a lot of energy, not to mention they need to adjust to the extra weight in their front ends.

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She has had a lot of wen growth just recently so I bet it's getting pretty heavy and she's still adjusting to it too.

That is very possible. I've had a few fish grow monstrous wens and they always went through periods of lethargy and inactivity during and after the biggest growth spurts. Growing takes a lot of energy, not to mention they need to adjust to the extra weight in their front ends.

Nice point Chrissy! :thumbs: We just don't always know why a fish wants time out............... till later!

I have had so many issues with Mamma Flap when she is gravid and does the strangest things and makes my hair fall out, only to find that she copes...eventually!!!

Imber you have already brought this fish back from death's door, i think she is in great hands and this too will pass!

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Thank you so much for the encouragement! I feel like I should update this to let you guys know what's going on since she's still having issues. I woke up Saturday morning and she looked awful. Her tail was blood red all along the edges, and she had a spot on her side where she had knocked off a scale and that was bright red and oozing. When I tried to give her peas she just spit them out. I tried to hop on here and see what you guys thought, but I couldn't get the site to load so I started her on medigold because I was afraid she'd stop eating. She ate it and I was wringing my hands over whether I made the right choice on med food. Saturday night she looked the same. Sunday I didn't see any improvement and started to see some indication of her scales lifting. I thought I'd watch her closely and keep up the medigold until I was sure she was starting to dropsy then I'd get on here and see what you guys thought about continuing the medigold or switching to metro. Sunday night she looked the same. Monday morning her redness was a little better. I did a 100% w/c with removing the salt and adding epsom salt instead. I also bumped her temp up to 80, added more aeration. These are the pics that I took Monday morning during the w/c.

squishface4.jpg

squishface5.jpg

Monday evening her tail seemed less red and she looked better overall. I did an 80% water change today. She's getting up and eating, but mostly sitting in the corner clamped. I'm thinking she might have a parasite problem that caused this - maybe flukes that took over when the temp was fluctuating, but I don't want to inundate her with medication so I was hoping I could get the infection under control and get her a little stronger then get her started on Prazi. What do you guys think? I think her swelling and redness has decreased. Her scale spot looks better. I wish I had pictures from Saturday morning because she looked just awful. I took these a few minutes ago.

squishface6.jpg

squishface7.jpg

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Looks like you did the right thing. I would finish the course of medi-gold. I'm so glad to see her wen back to normal. My Casper (soon to be renamed Yoruichi) looks just like her :)

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