Jump to content

Very Strange Morning Behaviour!


Recommended Posts

  • Regular Member

Hi folks! Apologies for not being around for a long time (very busy with shift work at the hospital) and I am also sorry for popping back with a problem, but I know I'll get the best advice here!

I have a problem as described below with my once black but now orange Moor, Roger. I hope someone can shed some light on the very alarming behaviour this fish is displaying in the mornings at the moment :undecided:

[*]Ammonia Level? 0

[*]Nitrite Level? 0

[*]Nitrate level? 10ppm or less

[*]Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)? 7.6

[*]Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)? 7.8

[*]Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? Salifert liquid test kits

[*]Water temperature? 21 degrees

[*]Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? 50 US gals running for 1.5 years

[*]What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)? Tetratec EX700 (700l p/h) external plus Eheim Aquaball 180 (650L p/h) internal filter

[*]How often do you change the water and how much? 50% a week (70 US gal)

[*]how many days ago was the last water change and how much? 3 days ago as above

[*]How many fish in the tank and their size? 3 fancies at 4 inch body length each approx

[*]What kind of water additives or conditioners? Seachem Prime Dechlorinator

[*]What do you feed your fish and how often? a very varied diet - Saki Hikari Fancy Goldfish Colour Enhancing Diet (soaked sinking pellets),Saki Hikari Basic diet pellets, spirulina flakes (soaked), enriched brine shrimp, mysis shrimp, peas, cucumber, bloodworms occasionally, spinach leaves, occasional slice of orange

[*]Any new fish added to the tank? No

[*]Any medications added to the tank? 2 weeks ago I ran some Melafix in the water after one of the orandas caught a few scales. Meds removed with carbon and subsequent water changes.

[*]Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? No

[*]Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.?

My moor has suddenly started sleeping on its side. It breathes very very shallowly/infrequently. When it wakes up it seems to have a panic fit and swims in spirals crashing into everything for anything up to 20 minutes in fits and starts. In between the fits it sits or lies on the bottom of the tank loooking like it is dead and hardly breathing or taking big gasping breaths.

When the fits subside the fish behaves 100% normally, but this is the fourth morning I have come dow to see it laying on it's side looking dead.

Its appetite is normal and the only strange thing I saw yesterday was slightly pale stringy poop with bubbles in. They are on day three of a starve prior to being fed peas as the redcap oranda seemed constipated/egg bound on Thursday with a bloated belly (she has since expelled her eggs naturally and looks much happier and not bloated).

At the mo he is bobbling around as per normal looking like the happy healthy fish I know and love. It's just this morning behaviour that is very alarming and worrying.

Hope someone can help. Just spotted another pale brown stringy poop with clear bubbles in in the water but not sure who produced it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Hi jennybugs, good to see you again and please say hello to grey old London my home town ;)

Your poor moor! Sounds like something is up doesn't it. Have you been able to get a look at her gills and see if they are a nice bright red?

And that poop you saw, was it in a zigzag shape when it came out of her (the stringy bubbly one) just want to know that in case she is full of eggs. That can tilt a fish on her side... you havent seen any chasing like breeding chasing?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Also one more consideration. If this behavior is ONLY happening morning maybe there is a dirth of dissolved oxygen and or pH crash which can happen in algaed tanks specifically in early morning after a night of dark. Do you have lots of green algae? Just a thought.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Hello Trinket! :D

Poop is straight with slight kinks, not what I would say zigzag.

Gills are beautifully red and fresh looking as are the others. No treatments at all apart from the mentioned melafix for 7 days two weeks ago. I am anti treating with meds unless I know for certain that a fish is ailing with something - mis treatment is not good in my eyes - and the melafix was just to prevent any infection occuring from a couple of caught scales on Churchill.

I am not 100% certain of sex of my three. I haven't seen any breeding stars on any of them, but I do know Monty the red cap is a female as she drops eggs occasionally. The black oranda is a mystery, no stars on show but it was up the bottom of Monty the other day. She was very swollen which made me wonder at first if she was egg bound ( or possibly constipated, hence the starving) but now she isn't which leads me to think it may have been eggs that she's since dropped.

Roger Moor never shows any breeding behaviour of any kind. He/she usually just drifts happily around the tank without issue

ri1-1.jpg

ri5.jpg

gf1.jpg

Just realised I totally forgot about Boo my little ranchu! Just over an inch long of body and added to the tank a few months ago after 6 weeks QT.

I think it's male as it too was up the bottom of Monty before she became less bloated! :doh11: Bigger tank upgrade on the cards, obviously!

ea519c64.jpg

None of the fish bother Roger at all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Also one more consideration. If this behavior is ONLY happening morning maybe there is a dirth of dissolved oxygen and or pH crash which can happen in algaed tanks specifically in early morning after a night of dark. Do you have lots of green algae? Just a thought.

No algae issues at all - tank is in a north facing room. It's only this fish that displays this behaviour. The others are normal in the morning, hovering in the water rather than flat on the floor and certainly no paniced behaviour on waking/lights on.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

I'm thinking of removing one of the bits of bogwood or both as i was concerned about Roger hitting him/herself on it when panicing. I am tempted to try bare bottom tanking too but need to read up more about that before I consider it. all the fish seem to enjoy pooting through the gravel for food (I do vac the gravel every week as part of maintenance btw).

I would have thought if it's Ph related or such it would affect the other fish in some way too?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

I'm not sure what this could be, but one thing I noticed is this:

you say 50 gallon tank, but then you say you change half of it every week (70gallons) - umm... what? Do you mean the tank is 150 US gallons?

And the filtration is given in lph. I calculated that this is about 350gph combined. But either way the filtration is below 10x.

Honestly not sure if that has anything to do with the situation, considered your params are in check. It just confused me.

So he only does that in the morning after you turn the lights on? For how long does he do that before he goes back to normal, "just" 20 minutes and then he is back to normal for the entire rest of the day?

Did you ever try turning the lights off during day time for a few hours and turning them back on, to see if he does the same?

I would have thought this might be related to an injury or electrical current, but considered he acts fine afterward, that's strange. I had something similar happen to one of my fish, but only one single time.

In the morning when I turned the light in my fry tub on, one of them was swimming frantically, even spiraling at times, then just sinking to the bottom. After about 30 minutes he stopped and acted normal again ever since. I still don't know WHY he was like that, but I wonder if it is a similar thing with your fish,

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Have to say they all look marvelously healthy :) Lovely color and healthy fins and not a mark on them at all anywhere. i am with you 100% on not using meds, your fish will live longer and be happier without unecessary or wrongly chosen meds for sure.

:hmm I often think when a fish is a loner they tend to be female. And still think she could be full of eggs. No slight bloat on one side? If you look from above this is clearer. It certainly sounds a lot like the way my Mamma Flap has behaved (hence her name) on being full of eggs or when Ive had pH fluctuations.

If there is no algae or light issue what about the oxygen theory, a new fish will use up more, do you have lots?

Just throwing out ideas to think about.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

I'm not sure what this could be, but one thing I noticed is this:

you say 50 gallon tank, but then you say you change half of it every week (70gallons) - umm... what? Do you mean the tank is 150 US gallons? Sorry, 90L a week is changed. I got totally confused trying to convert to US gals. :ignore Tank is 180L in volume. I;ll stick to litres etc for now as I know where I am with that :doh11:

And the filtration is given in lph. I calculated that this is about 350gph combined. But either way the filtration is below 10x.

Params are as listed all the time and I've never had any ammonia or nitrite issues with the current filtration.

Honestly not sure if that has anything to do with the situation, considered your params are in check. It just confused me.

So he only does that in the morning after you turn the lights on? For how long does he do that before he goes back to normal, "just" 20 minutes and then he is back to normal for the entire rest of the day?

He just displays this behaviour in the morning/when the lights come on and it has only been for the last 4 days. He is completely normal in behaviour for the rest of the day/night.

Did you ever try turning the lights off during day time for a few hours and turning them back on, to see if he does the same?

I have tried turning the lights off during the day and he behaves as normal, just swimming around the tank.

I would have thought this might be related to an injury or electrical current, but considered he acts fine afterward, that's strange. I had something similar happen to one of my fish, but only one single time. No sign of any injury whatsoever and all other fish behaving normally.

In the morning when I turned the light in my fry tub on, one of them was swimming frantically, even spiraling at times, then just sinking to the bottom. After about 30 minutes he stopped and acted normal again ever since. I still don't know WHY he was like that, but I wonder if it is a similar thing with your fish,

I am concerned because this behaviour has only just started happening. I tried waking the fish this morningby lifting the lid of the tank without the lights on and he displayed the same behaviour.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Have to say they all look marvelously healthy :) Lovely color and healthy fins and not a mark on them at all anywhere. i am with you 100% on not using meds, your fish will live longer and be happier without unecessary or wrongly chosen meds for sure.

:hmm I often think when a fish is a loner they tend to be female. And still think she could be full of eggs. No slight bloat on one side? If you look from above this is clearer. It certainly sounds a lot like the way my Mamma Flap has behaved (hence her name) on being full of eggs or when Ive had pH fluctuations.

If there is no algae or light issue what about the oxygen theory, a new fish will use up more, do you have lots?

Just throwing out ideas to think about.

I have a large airstone and a venturi fitting on the internal filter and the spray bar is above the surface so the water from the external filter falls into the tank giving tons of surface movement and good aeration.

Roger doesn't look to be wonky on one side but I'll go have a proper look from above now. It's quite a slender fish compared to the orandas so I guess I'll see it as noticeable if it is egg bound.

BRB

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

From above Roger appears 100% symmetrical. No one side is deeper than the other.

I'm going off to add a second external filter Eheim Ecco Pro 300 which is another 750L/H, not that I have had any issues whatsoever with levels in the tank. I'm also going to take the bogwood out even though it hasn't affected the Ph enough to soften that water too much. I am more concerned about injury than how the tank look at the moment. I may add another airstone as well...you can't have such a thing as too much aeration can you (within reason)?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Not unless its pressure hosed in , no you cant ever have too much. It is hard to reach saturation point in goldfish tanks.

With the addition of a new fish, the circulation may not be enough for your moor. Fish are so different in their needs. One fish needs more oxygen than another, another is sensitive to pH changes or colder morning temps. What you can do is increase circulation via another filter, lots more filter media.........for the bbs to breed.....and yes remove the bogwood just because it makes more swimming space if nothing else. All these things will de stress Roger for sure and one may indeed prove to be the salve.

Watch for poop and if you possibly can get a poop pic as it is attached (impossible to diagnose egg poop off a fish).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Well I've just spent an hour adding a second external filter, another large airstone and removed both big bits of wood. Takes some getting used to seeing an empty tank like this, but I am all for the best for the fish.

I've also done another 50% water change with some slightly cooler water. With adding the extra filter and airstone, the flow is a bit stronger so I have turned down the internal filter flow a bit to compensate. I'll have to experiment and see what they can all get one with.

Boo doesn't have constipation as there's a very natural looking poop emerging, but I will try and keep an eye on Roger's motions to see if I can get a pic.

I am tempted to set up my oher 180L tank for two of the fish so it would be two fish in each 180L tank, but I only have space in the hallway upstairs and I would then have 10 tanks running. Not sure I could cope with 4 tanks needing weekly 50% water changes as I am only able to do it the old fashined way with a bucket and syphon! :unsure:

I will watch Roger like a hawk. I will be devastated if I lose him :(

Edited by jennybugs
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Well done.

Sometimes just 'more filtration' is what the doctor ordered..I hope so! Maybe you can see if this happens again tomorrow morning with the changes you have made to see if its worked :idont

I don't think you will lose him with only this sporadic flipping as symptom and nothing else visible, eating well and behaving normally and swimming normally most of the time.

When the lights go on in the morning, is it a very big difference from a dark room? Could you leave a curtain open at night in there so the transition is not so sudden?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

I really appreciate your comments and suggestions, thanks! :D

I only have curtains on the room windows in winter when it is cold. At the moment the window has none and the kitchen door is open so light can come through from there too. It's not direct sunlight as I say - north facing room but the light is a gradual build up in the morning before the tank lights come on.

I am off to work at 6am during the week so he/she will be looking like they are fast asleep on their side when I look in on the tank.

Edited by jennybugs
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

They are all beautiful fish and I am so attached to them :)

Well poop watch yesterday resulted in 100% normal looking poop from Roger. Broke off in short bits as were all the others. I gave them a few shelled peas with a grain of salts in each and they all responded to it.

In the evening they had some mysis, krill and enriched brine shrimp and went to bed happy. Roger spent the day mostly normal but one or two occasions he did an upside down flip while trying to turn round.

I did look in on Roger this morning at 6am. The tank room was in daylight and Roger was flat on its side looking, for all intents and purposes, deceased. He/she was breathing slowly and when the OH walked past the tank he 'came to' and spiralled all over the place. This was with no tank lights on so it's not triggered by them coming on by the looks of things. I will have to try and take a video of it as it is quite alarming to watch. He/she looks almost as though swimming about blind.

I noticed this morning what appears to be a lump on his/her left side. Small and the colour of his/her skin (orange) that looks like it is where a scale should be.

I'll try and get pics tonight.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

I can't get a pic of the bump as s/he keeps avoiding my camera at the wrong moment. Sadly s/he has been spiralling more frequently so I am treating for swim bladder to see if that helps. S/he is still eating really well but the turning is disturbing and there's a bending to one side too when on the bottom or spiralling. it doesn't look good, but s/he is still hanging on in ther so I am hoping and praying I can treat this successfully :angelstaf:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Roger has been doing tumble turns during the day too now :( Poop watch has produced long very thin empty poops too - this pic has the poop if you can see it and the strange lump on Roger's side

2cb0a4f1.jpg

4d6141d3.jpg

I have a video that I am trying to upload to photobucket so you can see this tumble turning. I am going to try and get video of the lights out behaviour too tomorrow. It's very distressing to me (and Roger I should think) and I am contemplating swim bladder treatment.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Are you talking about Interpret #13 Swimbladder treatment available in the UK?

This contains formaldehyde and methanol. Nasty stuff and a disinfectant type treatment that in my opinion is not suitable for a systemic problem which this looks to be. The poop looks very stressed and the fish is spiralling more now which most probably means some organ malfunction.

Can you get Sera Baktotabs where you are?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Regular Member

Are you talking about Interpret #13 Swimbladder treatment available in the UK?

This contains formaldehyde and methanol. Nasty stuff and a disinfectant type treatment that in my opinion is not suitable for a systemic problem which this looks to be. The poop looks very stressed and the fish is spiralling more now which most probably means some organ malfunction.

Can you get Sera Baktotabs where you are?

I will stop using interpet straight away. I've never liked any of their meds and never had to use them but it was all I had at the time.

I will have a search for the sera stuff so thanks for the recommendation. You guys are often able to get meds we can't in the UK!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...