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Iseul

Antibiotic Food For Goldfish

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If I plan to buy some antibiotic food for goldfish, which brand/type is the best one?

Also, can goldfish use human antibiotics? How would one control the dosage in such a case?

Hypothetically if there is an antibiotic overdose for the goldfish, what will happen?

(I'm thinking about what will happen if I have an antibiotic overdoes, like swallowing 40 antibiotic pills in one go. I don't think it will be lethal for humans, but it might cause some liver damage)

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If I plan to buy some antibiotic food for goldfish, which brand/type is the best one?

I can't answer all of your questions :rolleyes: but have used Medi-Gold formula from GFC. Quality products are usually found online.

[will post URL in a moment] :unsure:

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Any other good ones? I don't think any of my local pet stores would have this item.

I don't mind buying online but it takes a while to arrive.

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Hypothetically if there is an antibiotic overdose for the goldfish, what will happen?

(I'm thinking about what will happen if I have an antibiotic overdoes, like swallowing 40 antibiotic pills in one go. I don't think it will be lethal for humans, but it might cause some liver damage)

Just as with humans, an overdose or overuse can damage organs like the kidneys and liver. I actually feel that some people who experience problems with fish floating and developing dropsy may have brought the condition on themselves but excessively medicating the fish throughout the course of their lives. Often, good ol' salt is all that's needed to treat minor issues with fish, and it is much less damaging than medications are.

As for antibiotic food, I know some types are available in the UK but can't remember the brands. Hopefully another member will be able to fill you in soon :)

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Salt is ok for external infections of bacteria, fungi and parasites, but can't really help with internal bacterial infections, not directly anyway.

For a short duration salt dip, (no more than a few minutes), one can safely use a salt concentration of up to 30 grams per litre (3% salt solution or 2 tablespoons in every litre of water), am I right? (I got this information from various sources on the Internet but can't be sure about the validity of it)

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Here's some great information about salt :)

http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/forum/index.php?/topic/8382-salt-and-his-many-uses/

You're right, for internal bacterial infections antibiotics are needed. I have just seen a lot of people run out and buy medications at the first sign of illness, when in fact the symptoms could have been treated with salt or just plain water changes :(

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The concentration listed above seems to be significantly lower than what I've read elsewhere online, which recommend a dip in as much as 3% solution for a few minutes. (Your forum on the other hand only recommend a concentration of no more than 0.9% at the maximum)

I've read a scientific report which states that goldfish on average can live for 8 hours in a 2% salt solution, and can live in salt solutions of less than 1% for extended periods of time without any lethal risk at all, but would suffer some negative long-term health effects.

How would a salt solution affect fish that have experienced some ammonia or nitrite poisoning?

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Some goldfish are more sensitive to salt than others, and even at low concentrations will exhibit signs of distress (swimming erratically, etc.) but most tolerate it quite well. We recommend salting tank water for the treatment of most parasites.

As for dips, I personally don't use them so can't offer a lot of advice on them. I think 3% sounds quite high though.

As for how the salt will affect a sick fish, it really depends on the physical issues the fish is having and its tolerance level to salt. If the fish has sustained kidney or gill damage, for example, it could be difficult for it to cope with salt by regulating the levels of fluids and salts in its body.

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I think 3% is way too high. Average salt water is around 3.5 I think, so that would be a very bad idea for goldfish.

My koi vet uses 1.5% on KOIS for TWENTY SECONDS. And some only last about 10 seconds. And they are way more resistant than goldfish.

I personally don't go above 0.5% for baths (a few days) or 0.3% for longer baths (few weeks). And about 0.9 - 1% for short dips.

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Here is where I got the information from:

http://freshaquarium.about.com/cs/treatment/a/saltiinfresh.htm

Salt in a Freshwater Aquarium

Type and Quantity of Salt

Common table salt is suitable, however it should be non-iodized and contain no additives. Rock or Kosher salt are excellent choices, as they are straight sodium chloride with nothing else added.

The quantity will depend on how and what it is used for. A dip is a short exposure that is useful for the eradication of parasites. For dips a 3% solution is generally used for up to a half hour.

Baths are essentially treating the entire tank, and are useful for treatment of stress, nitrite poisoning, as well as some parasites. Salt concentrations for a bath are lower, 1% or less, and are used for up to three weeks.

Edited by Iseul

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Would people say that the recommendations for salt concentration levels on that site is wrong?

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I think that site is writing the % wrong. It says for dips...4 TEASPOONS (be sure to use teaspoons not tablespoons)in a gallon...that would be approx. .3%(which is what is recommended here on Koko's) not 3%.

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Yes The fish would certainly die within days. 0.1%, 0.3% maybe even 0.8% for a few days but 1% for three weeks? No way

The information you need is in the Diagnosis treatment section here: http://www.kokosgold...-his-many-uses/

For high level salt dips your fish only needs about 20 secs exposure max.

Or try reliable and trusted sources like Johnson and Hess and Noga...these were/are breeders and aquatic vets who can be trusted. There is a lot of loopy info out there on the net.

By the way the link you link us to is linking us to About.com.

About.com was set up by the New York Times - a few journalists who gave advice on a variety of topics......and the "guides" they went on to delegate answers to are not professionals just people chosen by editors, so the person who wrote this could just be a layperson who happens to keep fish.

I wouldn't trust any site that has a picture of a goldfish bowl with a fish in it on their page and then suggest wall mount bowls as a good starter home for fish.

About.com also covers home repairs, the weather and cooking .

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Actually 1 teaspoon is 1/3 of 1 tablespoon, not 1/10.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teaspoon

In the United States one teaspoon is 1⁄3 tablespoon, 1⁄6 U.S. fl. oz, 1⁄48 of a cup, and 1⁄768 of a U.S. liquid gallon (see United States customary units for relative volumes of these other measures). This is approximately 5 mL[4] and 1⁄3 of a cubic inch.

4 teaspoons in 1 gallon = 0.5% solution

4 tablespoons in 1 gallon = 1.5% solution

For 3% solution one would need EIGHT tablespoons, so they clearly wrote the percentage wrong.

Well, at least I didn't exactly follow their % when I treated my fish. I used the equivalent of 3 full tablespoons, which is equal to 9 teaspoons, which gives a 1.125% solution in 1 gallon of water. But it might still have pushed the severely sick fish (red streaks on fins, red patches under skin and around gills, unable to swim upright and keeping on leaning 90% to the side) over the edge. :(

Maybe salt dips regardless of solution aren't recommended for severely sick fish at all, especially when it's internal bacterial infection which the salt solution cannot directly help with. I was feeling desperate so I took a risk and tried to save the fish for 1 last time.

The fish stayed in the salt dip for no more than 5 minutes, and it lost consciousness not long after returning to its tank. Maybe it was losing consciousness anyway, maybe the salt dip accelerated or indeed slowed down this process. I didn't think that fish was going to survive the night if it was left untreated so I took a gamble and tried to treat it with a salt dip. After it completely lost consciousness (no gill/mouth movements at all, floating on the surface of the water with much of the body exposed sideways) for around an hour, it looked dead, so I buried it in a little self-made coffin (made from 2 cups) with some "burial goods" - water, food, marbles, inside in the backyard. Maybe I should have persisted in trying to revive it some more. I've read later that one can put an unconscious fish into the fridge for 45 minutes, and take it out and let it gradually warm up in room temperature over an hour. Sometimes the fish might revive...but I didn't know this at the time, and the fish looked died, so I buried it. Still, it's possible that the mistake on that webpage is partly to blame. This is why I said before the internet cannot be wholly trusted because much of the information on it is not accurate. Better to rely on a good book.

However, objectively I really don't think it was directly the salt solution that killed the fish. The fish was dying anyway. It was just a matter of time. A 1.125% solution for a few minutes would never kill or seriously harm a healthy fish.

Edited by Iseul

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A 1.125% solution for a few minutes would never kill or seriously harm a healthy fish.

And that's what we are talking about. Because why would you expose a healthy fish to a salt dip? There's no reason. And a sick fish can experience negative side effects from such a high concentration of salt.

So there you go.

As Red already pointed out, 3 teaspoons per gallon are about 0.3%. Depending of course on the depth of the spoon - not all of them are exactly 5 grams. Some are bigger, some smaller.

It is better to use a digital kitchen scale that also displays in grams, and weigh out the amount of salt needed.

I honestly never heard about the 45 minutes in the fridge to revive a fish. This sounds weird to me - not saying I don't believe that you read it somewhere. I sure agree though that this salt dip might have been what pushed your fish over the edge :(

Never ever trust sites like about.com, yahoo answers etc when it comes to the care of your fish. Too many random people answering too many questions. Only take advice from sites specialized in the care of goldfish :)

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Yes,3 teaspoons is .3%

I was repeating that site's info of 4 teaspoons/gallon. Which is more than .3% (why I put "approx") but would still not be harmful.

Iseul ...you didn't follow that info at all if you used 3 TABLESPOONS.....it does say 4 teaspoons. :) 3 tablespoons in a gallon is ... Too high.

Edited by Red

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A 1.125% solution for a few minutes would never kill or seriously harm a healthy fish.

And that's what we are talking about. Because why would you expose a healthy fish to a salt dip? There's no reason. And a sick fish can experience negative side effects from such a high concentration of salt.

So there you go.

That's not what I was talking about. I was saying that I don't think the salt solution was what directly killed the fish. It may have accelerated the process, but the fish was dying anyway. I didn't think it would have survived overnight if it was left untreated.

There are obviously always side effects, but I used a salt dip as a desperate last measure on an already dying fish.

(Maybe I'm just rationalising it to make myself feel less guilty...:(, sometimes I can't help but think if I didn't use such a high concentration, the fish would still be alive, despite being severely sick. Perhaps a low concentration salt solution might even have had beneficial effects on the fish...)

As Red already pointed out, 3 teaspoons per gallon are about 0.3%. Depending of course on the depth of the spoon - not all of them are exactly 5 grams. Some are bigger, some smaller.

No, but a "teaspoon" is actually a standard unit of measurement which is equal to exactly 5 grams, even though real teaspoons in the real world never fit with this exactly.

It's like the "foot" is an exact unit of measurement derived from the length of one's step, but it obviously doesn't mean everyone's step is exactly one foot.

Units of measurements are abstractions of real world things.

3 teaspoons per gallon = 3 x 5 / 3790 = 0.004 = 0.4%, to be exact.

It is better to use a digital kitchen scale that also displays in grams, and weigh out the amount of salt needed.

True.

I honestly never heard about the 45 minutes in the fridge to revive a fish. This sounds weird to me - not saying I don't believe that you read it somewhere.

See: http://goldfish-emergency.com/viewpage.php?page_id=5

Lower water temperatures gradually; to as low as 45 to 55 degrees. To accomplish this; place the fish in a gallon sized container using fresh treated water (match temps to tank water) then place the container in the refrigerator. The larger the container the better; reducing cooling time; reducing the risk of shock. The idea is too slowly cool body temperature.

Remove in 45 minutes to 1 hour for a period of 1 hour; allow temperatures to gradually increase to room temperature; not to exceed 72 degrees.

Your goldfish could make a surprising recovery.

I sure agree though that this salt dip might have been what pushed your fish over the edge :(

I feel somewhat guilty. :( I was only trying to save it in a last desperate measure though.

Never ever trust sites like about.com, yahoo answers etc when it comes to the care of your fish. Too many random people answering too many questions. Only take advice from sites specialized in the care of goldfish :)

Agree.

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This is why I said before the internet cannot be wholly trusted because much of the information on it is not accurate. Better to rely on a good book.

:exactly

This goes for lots of topics, from fish health to human diseases. Unless the site is directly quoting accredited professionals or journal articles, you can't trust it 100%. Even online forums like this one aren't exceptions. While myself and the other mods have years of experience and in some cases formal training in biology/fish care, we don't know everything. We do our best to only post advice we are absolutely certain of, but at times other well-intentioned members (often new, inexperienced or over-enthusiastic ones) can post incorrect advice, often that they themselves received from bad sources. While we do try very hard to prevent that from happening and correct it when it does, it's always best to check, double check and triple check on advice you receive before treating a sick fish.

Edit. I just saw you responded as I was typing this.

Try not to feel too bad about your fish. You've done MUCH better than most of us did when we first tried to treat sick fish. I think your fish was very ill by the sounds of it, so please don't be too hard on yourself :(

As for the cold revival thing...yes goldfish fish do lower their respiratory rate and use less oxygen when acclimated to cold temperatures over a period of time. But I don't know how well a sick fish would cope with a temperature change. In addition, if you were treating the fish for anoxia, why would you want to lower its rate of oxygen consumption? You would only want to do that if oxygen was limited, but you can always oxygenate water, even if the electricity is gone, by scooping some out and pouring it back in repeatedly.

Edited by Chrissy_Bee

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Yes, 1 tsp is .4%. That's why I weigh my salt when treating. 1 gram/liter or 4 grams/gallon. 120 grams for my 32G tank (which holds just under 30 gallons actually) is .1%.

1 tsp/gallon is just an easier standard measure. And .4% is not harmful.

Also, the type of salt you are measuring makes it more important to weigh instead of using spoons, IMO. I use pickling salt which is a bigger granule that aquarium salt. Some use rock salt...so using spoons is not accurate. :)

Edited by Red

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hope this helps: http://tinyurl.com/4xhor3f :twocents

I can't order from this site since I'm in the UK. Is there another place one can buy MediGold?

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I always weigh my salt. Salt is good for sick fish in long baths of 0.3 (obviously depends what the sickness is).

I would only use a strong salt dip (max 0.8) in healthy incoming fish to get rid of possible bacteria or parasites they have on their slime.

You can replace medigold with Jungle Anti-Bacterial which you can find in places like amazon. same with metromeds which you can replace with Jungle Anti-Parasitic.

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I'm going to get Medi-Gold from an American friend. :)

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I'm going to get Medi-Gold from an American friend. :)

If you are able to get your friend to help you get Medi-Gold, I would recommend you getting other medicated food, Metro-Meds, and also Jumpstart, which is food to feed after you've given them antibiotics food. Jumpstart has probiotics to help them repopulate their gut bacterial colonies. :)

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I asked her to buy the Medi-Gold and Jump Start combo, but not Metro-Meds.

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