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Not Sure What Is Wrong.


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[*]Ammonia Level? 0

[*]Nitrite Level? 0

[*]Nitrate level? 0

[*]Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)? 8.0

[*]Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)? 8.0, Hard Water

[*]Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? API Drops

[*]Water temperature? 74-76 depending on time of day.

[*]Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? 60g. Cycle likely reset 3 weeks ago.

[*]What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)? Fluval 405, Aqueon 55, Aqueon 30

[*]How often do you change the water and how much? 50% / 1x week.

[*]how many days ago was the last water change and how much? Yesterday

[*]How many fish in the tank and their size? 4 Orandas. 3.5 - 4 inches ea.(Body Length) 2 male, 2 female.

[*]What kind of water additives or conditioners? Prime

[*]What do you feed your fish and how often? Omega One medium sinking pellets 3x Day. 2-3 pellets ea. per feeding. Soaked 5 min. first. Peas Thursday and Sunday Nights.

[*]Any new fish added to the tank? 1 Oranda last Thursday. I did not QT and now we are probably paying the price. I thought I could get away with it because they are all from the same tank in the same store.

[*]Any medications added to the tank? API General Cure started yesterday after the Water Change and Carbon removal.

[*]Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? White "pimples" on newest Orandas face. About 1/8th inch behind & below the eye. They start white but within a day turn reddish/orange. Hard to say because the fish is orange. White spots on all their Wens that look different than what I've noticed to be Wen growth in the past.

[*]Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.? A little more bottom sitting than usual, but it is after lights out. Still as active during the day. 2 of the 4 were flashing, if flashing is what I understand it to be. Darting around the tank? Now another has started about 8-10 hours after adding the first round of General Cure. But the first two that were doing it have stopped or at least slowed doing it. I have not witnessed it from them tonight. They were also "shaking" and flapping their fins very quickly as if they are shaking something off. but I have not noticed that from the first two tonight, either.

A few things to add. This was an established(cycled) Cichlid tank that became available after having to move the Cichlids to a larger tank. I replaced about 70% of the water when I moved the Cichlids 3 weeks ago and then it sat for almost a week, fishless. Then I replaced another 50% before adding the Orandas two weeks ago. That is why I say the cycle likely reset 3 weeks ago. However, I have tested the water daily since adding the fish and my levels are almost always 0. Nitrites were 1ppm for a few days but have been back at 0 for several days.

I started with 2 Orandas, 2 weeks ago to see what effect that would have on my water and for 3 days, the levels were all good. So, I added the third Oranda and watched the levels. They remained at or near 0. Then, last Thursday I added the 4th. She seemed very shy compared to the other 3 and kinda did her own thing while the others swam in tandem. Then, Friday night/Saturday morning, she dropped eggs. After that, she was as active as the others and I thought that was that. But Sunday, I noticed a "pimple" on her cheek. Before the night was over it had started to fade. Then, Monday morning I looked at her again and it was still a little white, but had started reddening around the white. It is not a large sore, however. Hard to see actually. I may not have noticed it if I wasn't looking so close. Then, Monday night I noticed a few more small white spots pretty close to the first that have since followed the same pattern. All 4 now have white spots on their Wens that look similar to what she has on her face. They look like little white heads. I had some oscars several years ago that got ich, and I do not believe this is ich. It looks different. And it is only on the face and Wens. Nowhere else on the fish.

Someone in the tank also has/had white and/or clear poops. I also believe one or more were also constipated due to a very long(several inches) poop found after a pea feeding that started clear/white, then the color of the pellets, then finally green. The most recent poop has been white/clear/black. I rarely witness them poop myself, so I don't know what is coming from whom.

The first fish to develop symptoms, the newest fish, was clamping her fins for a little while. But I have not seen her do it in about 24 hours. The newest fish to develop symptoms is doing it a little.

I spent pretty much all my time Monday and Tuesday that I was not sleeping or working looking up illnesses on the internet and it sounded to me like parasites, but now I am not so sure. How long does it usually take to see results after you begin medicating? The medications you can buy say "quick" but what does that really mean? lol. I guess I would say that I have seen some improvement in the first two, so that is encouraging. I just worry that the white spots may be fungus or bacteria instead of parasites.

I only have a vvvv near me and they only had the General Cure and Parasite Clear, so I picked the General Cure because I remembered reading that Parasite clear was harsher on the fish.

Should I start something else? Like a Fungus or bacteria medication? Is it safe to use multiple meds at a time? They sell an anti-bacteria medicated food that says it is safe to use while treating other problems, but i thought it would be better to ask first as the fish don't seem to be in immediate danger.

I tried my hardest to get pictures but they do not like to cooperate. They are typically restless, which I choose to take as a good sign. Also, I have a terrible camera. lol. I took a small video clip, but it will be impossible to see the spots on her face, but you can kinda see the white in the Wens. Particularly in the darker Wen fish. The video is likely useless for you guys and gals, but I will upload it anywho.

http://s1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd441/goodridd/?action=view&current=DSCN0842.mp4

Orange - First Fish Added (Flashing, shaking) Male

Red Cap - Second Fish added (Flashing, Shaking, White spots in Wen, Clamped Fins) Female

Silver and Yellow - Third Fish added (Has the most white spots in Wen, but otherwise seems healthy) Male

Black/Orange - Last fish added (White in Wen, White/Red spots on face, Clamped fins, Flashing, Shaking) Female

I appreciate any advice as I know you guys/gals help people on your own free time!

I leave for work in about an hour, so I may not be available to immediately answer any questions.

Thanks!

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The white wen spots are mostly like wen growths. This will happen throughout the life of your orandas, or any other fish with wen. You can safely conclude that it's wen growth if: 1) it's limited only to the wen and 2) it disappears within a couple of days. New ones may appear elsewhere, if you have a fish blessed with lots of wen growth. :)

Since you've already started the parasite clear, I would recommend you continue the course and add no other treatment. In light that you've had a cycle bump recently, you may want to monitor your water parameters at least once daily.

How many days have they been in parasite clear?

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Hello,

I was only concerned with the white in the Wen because it looked different than what they developed shortly after getting them. Previously it came and went within a few days, followed by new Wen, but the white on the silver fish has been there since Monday when they really started acting different. It actually looks similar to what the unfertilized eggs looked like that I pulled out of the tank yesterday. I had about 8-10 plastic plants that were covered in eggs that I removed. Some hatched but they were eaten. I hope that doesn't offend anyone here that I did not remove them, but I don't have the means to care for that many babies. lol.

I notice now after getting home from work that I do not see any of the spots on her face anymore. They still have the "pimples" on their Wens, though. She is still a little skittish when I enter the room, even though I have never knowingly caused her stressed or handled her. The others all took a liking to me after the first time they were fed. lol.

Do Orandas grow Wen on and around the face like I have seen on lionheads/ranchus? I guess that could explain the white/red spots on the face of the newest, but I do not see any Wen growth where the spots have come and gone. This is all stuff I will learn as I go along I'm sure. How to differentiate between illness and Wen. lol. I tried using google images to diagnose, but half the images that looked like this were called fungus by people and half were called Wen. It was all very confusing.

I actually used the API General Cure instead of the Parasite Clear. It says to use 1 packet per 10 gallons, then repeat 48 hours later. It has been 30 hours since I put in the first and I will put in the second tomorrow afternoon. I thought I read that it would not interfere with the cycle, but I cannot seem to find where I read this. I will continue monitoring the water 2 times a day. So far the levels are all fine, though.

Boy, Goldfish are not as easy to maintain as they made it sound at the store. I've kept cichlids for over a decade and they are comparatively, a cake walk. I stopped into the store on my way to work to talk to the person I bought the fish from Thursday and she told me that the one I bought had been in the tank for 15 minutes when I got it. That must have been really stressful for her to be shipped, plopped in a new home, plucked out, put in a bag, and plopped in another new home that quickly. I guess I cannot blame her for being so shy.

I have one other question. I was always told to have 1 lb. of gravel per gallon of water, so I have 60 lbs. of gravel in this tank. After reading through a lot of threads on this site, it seems that that is a terrible idea. I've always vacuumed the gravel with every weekly water change, but now I think I would like to remove most of it so that there aren't dangers a brewing down there. I removed some when I did the last WC and was wondering what the maximum safe amount to remove at a time is?

Thanks for your help thus far dnalex. I truly appreciate it!

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I think with your tank size, 1 or 2 cups every other day won't be pushing it.

Some orandas do grow wens around their face, so much so that it grows over their eyes. So the white spots on the face could be completely normal. Also, I have a black ranchu that gets really fuzzy wen spots.

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Hello, goldfish are definitely not the easiest of creatures to take care of lol. It makes sense though, because they have been bred so much to the extremes for colors, shapes, and funky growths. :)

To answer your question about wen growth - yes, some orandas do have wen growth around the cheeks like lionheads and ranchus. How long have the white spots been persistent? Can you describe them in more detail? Right now, since you are already treating with general cure, it's best just to finish that last course of treatment, and then just give them nice clean water and nothing else to de-stress.

As for gravel, there are quite a lot of people on this forum who have done away with gravel entirely, while some do retain them. However, I think it is generally agreed that it's best to keep only a very thin layer of gravel (about 1/4 inch in depth) and no thicker. I would definitely recommend taking out some gravel, because I think that 60 lbs might be a bit too much. However, don't take it all out at once, as that might have a deleterious effect. Instead, remove about a cup every few days, until you are done. In the mean time, you may want to look in the tank photos and videos section to see both examples of bare bottom and substrated tanks, to see what you might like.

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Orandas can get wen growth on their faces, and wen growth can look lots of different ways. You say yo started with the two orandas two weeks ago. Is that when you got them from the store, or were these fish you had already that you moved from a different tank? Just trying to clarify if they are all relatively new to being in your care. Without clear pictures it's hard to say for sure, but from your description it sounds like the white spots could just be wen growth, especially if they haven't been with you long and you may have not had time to become familiar with the different ways it can present.

The other symptoms you describe do sound to me like it could be parasites, likely flukes. It is very, very common for fish to come from stores with flukes. Sort of the aquatic equivalent of fleas. We reccommend Praziquantel to treat for flukes, as it is very gentle. I don't know much about the general cure, but I suspect it is much harsher (though I've also heard it's not quite as bad as parasite clear). If you can, you might look into ordering some PraziPro online if you don't have any local fish stores that sell it. The only chain in my area that carries it it Petland, but I do have a few smaller stores that stock it. I do not think you would want to add any more medications to the tank currently. Antibiotic foods and the like can be hard on fish and overmedicating can cause long term problems. It's best to take it slow.

I'm sure there will be others with more suggestions for you. I also wanted to say, it sounds like you've done a lot of research and it's really nice to see new people come to the site who are so willing to educate themselves and who are open to making changes as they learn. Welcome to Koko's!

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Thanks everyone for both the help and kind words!

That is good news about the gravel. I thought it would be a much slower process. Like a cup or so every WC. But every other day will make it go much quicker. Right now there is 2-3 inches of gravel. I would prefer not to go bare bottom, but I don't need a lot of gravel/substrate. I will definitely rummage through the the photos and vids.

Now it seems that the Silver one that has had the most white in it's Wen has developed a white spot near its eye as well. A little below it like the Orange/Black one. Hard to get a real good look at it because he thinks he's being fed when I get real close. But when he looks straight at me, it seems like a raised lump with a white tip. Given that the Orange/Black fish has cleared up considerably I will finish out the General Cure and see what happens over the next few days.

I also just spent about an hour rifling through google images for something that is close to what I'm seeing since I can't get good pics of my own and I cant seem to find anything that looks like what is on their faces, but it seems that I can safely chalk up the Wen spots to Wen growth.

The reason I may have over-reacted is that at first, what I took to be Wen growth looked like this pic.

http://www.fishkeeping.co.uk/uploads/newbb/2958_46b9c6f01310f.jpg

And now it looks more like this.

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e58/Mortevicar/DSC01435.jpg

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i278/ak47_chicago/IMG_2748.jpg

http://www.fishkeeping.co.uk/uploads/newbb/10076_4c0b60d580c1b.jpg

None of those pics are mine and I hope I am not breaking any rules by posting them. i do not believe they are copyrighted because they are linked to in other forums where people are posting them to see if they are normal spots.

The third pic is the closest to what looks like is on my fish faces.

flutterbudget, yes. All of the Orandas were in the care of the pet store when I got them two weeks ago and they are currently occupying an ex Cichlid tank. All of the Orandas came from the same store and even the same tank. The General Cure states that it has 250mg Metronidazole and 75mg Praziquantel per packet. Does that sound like an ok substitute for Prazipro, or should I still order it and keep it on hand in case I need it in the future?

Yeah, I thought about getting the anti-bacteria pellets made by Jungle because the label said it was safe to use while treating for other problems, but I did not feel good about pumping the tank and fish full of meds. I'm glad I asked first.

Thanks again for all the help fellow fish lovers!

Edited by WesleyWyndam
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Hi Wesley, if those white spots on your fish look like the ones in the 3rd pic, then they are wen growth. In any case, you'll be able to confirm this over the next few days as you see them disappear and possibly reappear elsewhere on their wen.

Although you are treating with general cure, it might still he prudent to get praziquantel by itself and treat for flukes at a later time in the future, after they've had sufficient time to adapt to their new home and after they've had some time away from the meds. There is a product made by Hikari called Prazipro, which is a liquid praziquantel solution. It is the product that many people on this forum use and recommend, as it is relatively inexpensive and as it is already in liquid form, you are spared the hassle of having to mix the powder.

How are you fish doing during this time?

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Those photos all look like wen growth to me, but I'm not an expert. I'd say that if that looks like what you are seeing, and it is only showing up on the wen and not on the fins or body, it is most likely wen growth. Just keep an eye on it.

Metro is an antibiotic, and now that you've started it you definitely need to finish the course. I think it still wouldn't hurt to get some PraziPro to have on hand. The thing with flukes is in the egg stage they can survive the prazi, and the eggs won't hatch with prazi in the water. So to really make sure they are gone, you need to treat on a schedule that includes periods of just clean water so any eggs will hatch and you can kill those when you re-dose. I doubt the general cure will allow for that.

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Phew....

This information will make it much easier to sleep tonight.

The fish seem to be doing a lot better tonight. I have not seen any Flashing or Shaking and they all seem very active. I did not see any bottom sitting during the day either.

Part of me wanting to remove most of the gravel did have to do with fears that if I did have parasites, they would laying in wait down there. i will order some Prazipro to keep on hand in case something is lurking at the bottom.

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Part of me wanting to remove most of the gravel did have to do with fears that if I did have parasites, they would laying in wait down there. i will order some Prazipro to keep on hand in case something is lurking at the bottom.

Don't panic :)

For now, just stick with your plan of removing 1 cup of gravel every couple of days. Definitely get the prazipro; it will come in handy, and flutter is right. If your fish had flukes, the general cure won't get rid of it. You'll want to do four rounds of prazi treatment. But that's for a later date. :)

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Hello everyone,

I did the second dose of General Cure per the medications instructions on Thursday and then did a 25% WC today and added Carbon back into the filters, also per instructions. The fish seem much better. They are more active, have healthier looking poop, and I have not seen any flashing or shaking for days. The White bumps on the Orange/Black fishes face are completely cleared, but the spot on the silvers face is still there, although it is a little smaller today.

I still could not get good pics of his face, so I took video with a better camera. I uploaded it to photobucket, but it lost a lot of detail in the conversion. I took some screen caps and while not great, they are better than nothing, I suppose. The spot has been there for 4 or 5 days. And his Wen dots have been there for 6. I am going to assume they are just Wen growth as has been suggested by you folks unless they give me reason to believe otherwise. Here are the screens.

Silver4.jpg

silver3.jpg

Silver2.jpg

Today is usually the day I do a 50% WC, but the meds said 25%. I assume the meds will be completely removed by the Carbon by tomorrow? According to my filter specs, I am filtering 900+ GPH. So, will I be safe to do another 25% tomorrow? I'd still like to maintain the 50% a week if possible. My Ammonia and Nitrate both stayed at 0, but my Nitrates climbed to 40 during the medicating period.

I also picked up some salt and ordered the Prazipro to keep on hand for future use, if needed.

I will also keep removing a cup or two of gravel every other day, probably until it is all gone. I want to change the color anyway. This color worked well with the fish that were in there previously, but I don't like it with these goldfish. I'm thinking a 1/4 inch of black, plus some larger decor stones scattered about. Maybe also try to find some live plants they won't like to eat. From reading the forums, it seems people have good luck with Java Fern.

Thanks for the help!

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Looking at the pictures, I think it might be bacterial spots. Salting would help with this. Hopefully, others will weigh in on what they think those are.

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Awwww...

Ok, It's been 24 hours since I put the carbon back in the filters and I want to do another 25% WC.

The orange/black fish has had one of those spots re-appear near her eye like the pic above. I will begin salting with this WC. Hopefully it will help clear up those spots.

Edited by WesleyWyndam
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Adding salt should not affect your water parameters. However, I just realized you are just finished with treating with general cure. Perhaps you can hold off on adding the salt and just give them nice clean water for few days to see if things change?

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oops...

I've already added 58 tsp. of salt about 10 hours ago. I'll just leave it at .1% for now unless you think I should do a WC to get some out. They didn't seem bothered by it. Actually, it seemed to reinvigorate them a bit. I'll check on them in the morning to see if there is any further improvement on their... "blemishes".

Thanks!

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Well, I do not have good news to report.

After bringing the salt to .1% Sunday, I waited until Tuesday to see if there would be any improvement and there was not. They still had the spots on their wens and faces. I decided I was going to go ahead and raise to .3% starting Wednesday morning.

Wednesday morning I awoke to find that my red cap was missing a chunk of Wen about dead center of her head. The damage does not go all the way to her head, there is still most of the wen left. I thought that maybe she damaged it on a filter intake or so and went ahead with the next salt addition. After getting home form work later, I went ahead and did the last salt addition. A few hours later I saw some white develop inside the damaged area and when I looked closely, about an 1/8th of an inch of white... puss? came out, followed by a little bit of clearish fluid. Then a liitle more white came out followed again by a clearish fluid. I've noticed that when she gets under the light just right, I can see that her wen is a little darker in the area that was damaged. It looks like it may be under the wen, actually. Could this just be bruising, or is there something going on under her wen?

She was also semi lethargic today and seemed to be having trouble maintaining her balance last night. I noticed a few times that she was floating mid tank with her head pointed straight up and her tail straight down. I fasted them for the last 24 hours and then fed them peas tonight. Right now, it is lights out and everyone is resting/sleeping, but she is not by the other fish and has her head up.

Now, back to the face spots. Like I've said in previous posts, they come and go. After seeing my red cap release puss and fluid, I wonder if these spots are filling up with something and then releasing it, and that is why they get larger and smaller. The spots seem to be in the exact same places every time.

I have also witnessed the orange fish raising and lowering his dorsal fin very quickly tonight. And I mean very quickly. I did not know they could move them that fast. But, it was when I approached the tanks and he was doing his "feed me" dance. I am not sure if that is normal behavior or not. I had not noticed any of the fish do it during previous feedings. The shaking of the fins I saw before I treated for parasites was when they did not know I was present, or the lights were out and they were where they usually rest at.

So, to sum up. As of right now, three of the 4 have spots on their faces and the red cap is leaking fluid from her wen, is semi lethargic, and has lost some balance control. And some or all of them still have clear/white poops. The tank is currently at approx. .3% salinity. Ammonia is below .25, Nitrites 0, and Nitrates below 20. The PH is still 8 and the temp is 74.

Any ideas where to go from here. I am really freaking out over the puss thing. it was pretty gross. I already had trouble sleeping last night over this and I don't see how I am going to be able to sleep tonight. It is very depressing.

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Wesley, it sounds like your red cap may be having a bacterial infection in its wen, which may require the use of medicated food and/or other treatments. However, I would not treat just yet, and hopefully a mod/helper/experienced person will come by and give you more help.

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Ok, there is nothing I could really do at this time anyway. If it is suggested that I start treating for a bacteria infection, I would have to go to the pet store tomorrow and see what they have.

I did receive my Prazipro today, but that seems to be for parasites only and they don't currently act like they need to be treated for that.

Thank you for your help so far dnalex! It is much appreciated.

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The best I would probably be able to do is screen caps like in post #12. I will do my best to get them in the morning.

The hardest will probably be the dark spot on the red cap because the light has to hit her wen just right to see it.

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