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Something Is Wrong, Do Not Know What It Is.


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[*]Ammonia Level - 0

[*]Nitrite Level - 0

[*]Nitrate level - less than 5

[*]Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)- 7.4

[*]Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines) - believe its 7.4

[*]Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops - api drops

[*]Water temperature - 75

[*]Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running - 55gallons running for 11 months

[*]What is the name and "size of the filter"(s) - penguin 350 and penguin 200

[*]How often do you change the water and how much - 50% every week.

[*]how many days ago was the last water change and how much - 6 was going to do the wc tomorrow.

[*]How many fish in the tank and their size - 3. All between 4-6 inches (will see in the video uploaded after)

[*]What kind of water additives or conditioners - Kordan NovAqua+, tetra florapride.

[*]What do you feed your fish and how often - Pro gold pellets, 1-2 times a day.

[*]Any new fish added to the tank - no

[*]Any medications added to the tank - no

[*]Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus - bloody streaks on tail.

[*]Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc. - was fine earlier today, maybe an hour ago when I looked he was swimming frantically around doing flips and spins in ways he usually does not. He is swimming very violently and then will stop and lay on the floor motionless gulping water and then flip out and start swimming frantically again. He keeps arching his tail/back to the side and then fixing himself.

I am kinda at a loss here. I am not really sure what I am dealing with but I do know something is wrong with him. :( He was fine a few hours ago when I was watching him but when I walked passed the tank about an hour ago I thought I scared him which caused him to flip out and end up on the bottom of the tank under an air wand but after watching him I knew something was up. At first I didn't notice anything wrong with him but after looking at his tail more thoroughly I noticed blood streaks.

After reading more about the green algae that forms in tanks, I decided to let it grow a little before cleaning the tank of it(if ever). I'm not sure if maybe that could be a cause?

I am currently uploading a video that shows exactly what is going on because I know my description is probably not explaining the situation as well as it could. :rolleyes: Will post when its done.

Thank you for any and all help. :)

edit: the upload finished faster then I thought. Please excuse my sniffles. :(

th_DSCF2095.jpg

Edited by wigglies
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wow.. that is really unusual.. from what you described, before seeing the video my mind went straight to parasites.. but seeing the video & absorbing the information you supplied.. i am going to check my books to see what else i can find.. do you have a qt at hand that you can set up incase treatment is required?

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I have an old 3 gallon beta tank I have been using for QT. I know it is rather small but I would just change the water a lot while they were in there. If it is needed I could probably find a larger bucket or something to put him in.

A minute ago he was acting normal but that did not last long.

Thank you for checking your books Helen. :)

Edited by wigglies
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This may sound a little odd, but can you check his gills? That flicking looks to me like exaggerated flukes flashing which is them trying to flick off irritations in their gills, just wondering if something's got caught somehow and is aggrevating him particularly given how fast it's happened. Condition of the gills might give some clues too. Just gently hold him on the body a little back from the gill plates and gently lift the plate with a fingernail or something. Check both sides.

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I didn't see anything while I just looked in his gills, but I didn't really wedge it open or anything, just held him and tried to get a good look inside. Can go give it another shot if you think I should.

The first thing that came to my mind as well was flukes because that is the only thing I know of that causes sporadic swimming. And since I never QT'ed him when I got him for flukes I was always worried he might carry them. I got him from a very good fish store (specializes is just fish) so I thought he would be alright. It was 11 months ago that I did get the fish so I am not sure if it could hide itself for that long?

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Even if it hid that long, I really don't think it would have so sudden and extreme an effect, that's why my first instinct is something environmental rather than bacterial but I must admit I am stumped! No chance there's anything in his mouth?

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When he lays down on the bottom of the tank to rest is his spine curved?

Fish can get spinal injuries and those can result in erratic swimming.

Did he grow normally since you had him?

I ask this because I had a fish that hardly grew bigger and that I suddenly lost due to organ failure (probably kidney). The only symptom before was erratic/drunk swimming.

If he looks stressed to you, it may be wise to salt to 0.1% wether you'r QTing him or not.

Edited by Quasi
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Blood streaks can be a sign that something has changed in your water params. I would do a large water change as soon as you can. This happened to me a few years back and my initial thought after googling it was septecemia. Turns out it was a PH crash.

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When he lays down on the bottom of the tank to rest is his spine curved?

Fish can get spinal injuries and those can result in erratic swimming.

Did he grow normally since you had him?

I ask this because I had a fish that hardly grew bigger and that I suddenly lost due to organ failure (probably kidney). The only symptom before was erratic/drunk swimming.

If he looks stressed to you, it may be wise to salt to 0.1% wether you'r QTing him or not.

Sometimes when he is resting on the floor is his spine curved, but not every time. After comparing pictures of him when I first got him to now it looks like he has grown only in width, not so much length.

He really does look stressed. To me it seems like he's trying to get something off of him like Devilduck thought.

At first I thought I scared him when I walked by which caused him to dart from where he was resulting in a spinal injury. I hope that's not the case. :( I will start with a .1% salt if you think that would help.

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my thoughts exactly are along the lines of what quasi has explained .. i have scaled the books, i can't find anything that would lead to this sort of immediate behavoir.. i suspect when you scared him perhaps he's hit his head on your glass ornament or on the wand or even damaged his spine? the only type of diseases listed for this type of swimming are types that you will notice for sure for example hole in the head disease will have a corkscrew swimming effect.

bacterial infections will have a slow progressing symptomatic path that you would have known something was up from days before.. as well as flukes or any parasitic infestation.

i lean towards physical damage.. explain how exactly the fish behaved when he was scared.. was it quick reaction fast enough to have caused either head or spinal damage upon impact?

Edited by stakos
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Blood streaks can be a sign that something has changed in your water params. I would do a large water change as soon as you can. This happened to me a few years back and my initial thought after googling it was septecemia. Turns out it was a PH crash.

I thought that might have also been the case Alistair because that same thing happened to me a while back. But I did all the tests posted above right before I made the post so it would be as accurate as possible. :( Thanks for your input though.

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I am just wondering about those plant fertilizer things. I don't use them anymore as I suspect one to have gotten some fish sick.

Can you do maybe 2 back to back 80% water changes so you get most of that out of there? Let's see how he acts after that. Could also help incase something got in the tank. But he is the only one acting off? That is rather strange if it was in the water...

It seems like it could also be flukes. A little ranchu a few months back did a similar thing. Prazi fixed him up I think. Let me try and remember his little name. :hmm

edit: does he ever swim normal anymore? maybe it is an injury. he seems to be belly up quite a lot too.

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i lean towards physical damage.. explain how exactly the fish behaved when he was scared.. was it quick reaction fast enough to have caused either head or spinal damage upon impact?

It's hard to say exactly because I was not focused on him while he did it but what I believe I saw was him sleeping near the bottom of the tank. As I passed by he woke up and did a quick U-turn and ended up under the bubble wand, possibly bumping his head on the glass behind it.

What I am still iffy about though is that maybe he was already like this before that happened and he did that simply because of what is wrong with him. :idont

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well, if we can't determine if it is physical damage.. then the next best thing is to treat for parasites.. qt, salting and hope for the best. do you have a qt at hand?

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I am just wondering about those plant fertilizer things. I don't use them anymore as I suspect one to have gotten some fish sick.

Can you do maybe 2 back to back 80% water changes so you get most of that out of there? Let's see how he acts after that. Could also help incase something got in the tank. But he is the only one acting off? That is rather strange if it was in the water...

It seems like it could also be flukes. A little ranchu a few months back did a similar thing. Prazi fixed him up I think. Let me try and remember his little name. :hmm

edit: does he ever swim normal anymore? maybe it is an injury. he seems to be belly up quite a lot too.

Yes, as of right now he is swimming normally. Using his caudal fin like nothing is wrong, so I am thinking that it isn't a spinal injury. (edit: that is not to say that hes back to normal, I just meant that at the time I wrote it he was swimming normally) As for the other 2 fish they are acting perfectly normal. Nothing out of the ordinary.

From what I am seeing it looks like he is trying to get something off himself, like flukes. I just don't want to jump into assuming that is the case and start him on prazi when it could be something else.

I won't be able to do any water changes for a couple hours but when I can I will. Should I hold off on salting until I do that or just get the salt in asap?

Edited by wigglies
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to get your tank to 0.1% you will need 55 level teaspoons of salt (with NO anti-caking agents) dissolved... then 12 hours later repeated for 0.2%. if it's parasites, then best to treat the whole tank.

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I would wait until after the water change. so you can start with salt and prazi and not just have to redose it in a few hrs.

if he is swimming normal at times it probably isn't injury, otherwise he wouldn't be able to.

Start with the prazi and see :) hopefully it is just a bad case of flukes. I find that fish with flukes are extra nervous and stressed when you go up to them etc.

I totally agree with Helen on just treating the whole tank

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I would wait until after the water change. so you can start with salt and prazi and not just have to redose it in a few hrs.

if he is swimming normal at times it probably isn't injury, otherwise he wouldn't be able to.

Start with the prazi and see :) hopefully it is just a bad case of flukes. I find that fish with flukes are extra nervous and stressed when you go up to them etc.

I totally agree with Helen on just treating the whole tank

Also something (possibly obvious) to keep in mind: when you do a water change, you have to add back the amount of salt that you took out along with the water (assuming you want to continue the salt treatment at the same level).

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to get your tank to 0.1% you will need 55 level teaspoons of anti caking agent salt dissolved... then 12 hours later repeated for 0.2%. if it's parasites, then best to treat the whole tank.

Do you guys actually count out 55 teaspoons of salt ? If your tank is 55 US Gallons it is 208 litres. Easy way to do it is weigh out 208 grams of salt to get to 0.1%. Add another 208 grams 12 hours later to get to 0.2% and then another 208 grams 12 hours after that to get to 0.3% if that is what you will dosing :) It's 1 gram per litre to get to 0.1%

To convert US Gallons to litres multiply by 3.785. You will never need a teaspoon again, unless you are making tea

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Do you guys actually count out 55 teaspoons of salt ? If your tank is 55 US Gallons it is 208 litres. Easy way to do it is weigh out 208 grams of salt to get to 0.1%. Add another 208 grams 12 hours later to get to 0.2% and then another 208 grams 12 hours after that to get to 0.3% if that is what you will dosing :) It's 1 gram per litre to get to 0.1%

To convert US Gallons to litres multiply by 3.785. You will never need a teaspoon again, unless you are making tea

:goodpost

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I would wait until after the water change. so you can start with salt and prazi and not just have to redose it in a few hrs.

if he is swimming normal at times it probably isn't injury, otherwise he wouldn't be able to.

Start with the prazi and see :) hopefully it is just a bad case of flukes. I find that fish with flukes are extra nervous and stressed when you go up to them etc.

I totally agree with Helen on just treating the whole tank

To late. :D And it looks like I am out of salt now too. Glad I barely had enough. I'll have to pick up more tomorrow. And yes, I am def just going to hit the whole tank with prazi. Will be better for all of them I think.

One more thing, for some reason I had it in my mind that you should not salt and prazi your tank at the same time. Is that true or does it not matter?

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to get your tank to 0.1% you will need 55 level teaspoons of anti caking agent salt dissolved... then 12 hours later repeated for 0.2%. if it's parasites, then best to treat the whole tank.

Do you guys actually count out 55 teaspoons of salt ? If your tank is 55 US Gallons it is 208 litres. Easy way to do it is weigh out 208 grams of salt to get to 0.1%. Add another 208 grams 12 hours later to get to 0.2% and then another 208 grams 12 hours after that to get to 0.3% if that is what you will dosing :) It's 1 gram per litre to get to 0.1%

To convert US Gallons to litres multiply by 3.785. You will never need a teaspoon again, unless you are making tea

I just did 1cup + 1/8th cup + 1 tsp. :)

And thank you all for all the help thus far! :)

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to get your tank to 0.1% you will need 55 level teaspoons of anti caking agent salt dissolved... then 12 hours later repeated for 0.2%. if it's parasites, then best to treat the whole tank.

Do you guys actually count out 55 teaspoons of salt ? If your tank is 55 US Gallons it is 208 litres. Easy way to do it is weigh out 208 grams of salt to get to 0.1%. Add another 208 grams 12 hours later to get to 0.2% and then another 208 grams 12 hours after that to get to 0.3% if that is what you will dosing :) It's 1 gram per litre to get to 0.1%

To convert US Gallons to litres multiply by 3.785. You will never need a teaspoon again, unless you are making tea

lol.. yeah, i weigh mine too. but the majority have basic scales if any at all & often smaller tanks so the teaspoon per gallon is easier...

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I always weigh my salt :)

You can salt and prazi together. but maybe just salt at 0.1 while you prazi and then you can always bump it up to 0.3 once the prazi is over.

good luck!

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wigglies, I can't say for sure about the salt + prazi, but another member had contacted Hikari and asked about this. They were told by the company that salinity of more than 0.1% can reduce the effectiveness of Prazi Pro. Now that doesn't mean it is not working at all. You might just have to do the treatment a little longer than 6 weeks. I had 0.2% salt in my tank and treated for 7 or 8 instead of 5 weeks.

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