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jadenichole

Help! :( Flukes?

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I bought my fish before cycling my tank.. and yes yes I know... but besides that.. My tank has come a long way and I am very good about changing my water and keeping my babies safe :) - I recently starting seeing my nitrites develop...and I dont know if this would cause what I noticed in my larger oranda..Awhile back I noticed some frequent yawning in him.. and a member seemed to think it may be a mild case of flukes.. but then it subsided so I kindof left it alone.. today I saw a 1 ppm spike in nitrites (from the time I checked my params this am) and quickly did a large water change.. and tonight I notice a lot of yawning again and sudden flashing.. I checked params tonight and we are at 0 ammonia 0 nitrites and 0 nitrates.. he is flashing and yawning a ton :( poor guy and his fins are clamped including his dorsal and he is bottom sitting from time to time.. I just feel so terrible.. and he did this really really strange thing where he looked like he was holding his breath almost and looked almost like he was going to blow up?? I dont know how else to explain it?? Like he was choking (I know he wasn't choking on anything because I have nothing in the tank for him to choke on including no gravel on the bottom) and he wasn't fed in a long time since earlier tonight) - so Im wondering if maybe he yawned and held his breath to maybe try to clear out his gills because they are bothering him? I've seen him do this before and it scares the HECK out of me.. It was just really really odd?? I'll post more information below.. With being so close to cycling.. I dont know if treating for flukes is a good idea.. will I lose my cycle?? Could I maybe move him to a hospital tank for a bit and treat him for a bit each day? I just feel so terrible if he's suffering from the darn flukes.. poor guy :( .. He's eating and still swims around every now and then.. just looks kindof sad and not totally himself.. I dont really know what to do :( .. I have another tank thats near the end of it's fishless cycle so I was going to put that filter onto this tank and hopefully that will speed things up .. but for now I'm lost as to what I should do :( I just want him to feel better... I just know somethings not right with him :( :( :(

[*]Test Results for the Following:

[*]Ammonia Level? Has been 0.25 - 0.50 each day and I change water twice a day right now to maintain a healthy level and keep at 0.25 and never at or above .50 while trying to get the tank cycled.

[*]Nitrite Level? same as ammonia

[*]Nitrate level? 0 right now still cycling haven't gotten nitrates yet.

[*]Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)? Don't have number but I know it's normal

[*]Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)? Don't have number but I know this is normal as well

[*]Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? API drops w/ test tubes

[*]Water temperature? 71.5

[*]Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? 26 gallons

[*]What is the name and "size of the filter"(s)? 2 filters Aqueon together they are for a 50 gallon tank

[*]How often do you change the water and how much? 2 times a day.. 50% each right now..

[*]how many days ago was the last water change and how much did you change? Today.. 50% each change

[*]How many fish in the tank and their size? 1 6" oranda and 1 2" oranda

[*]What kind of water additives or conditioners? Prime

[*]What do you feed your fish and how often? Omega one small pellets .. very seldom omega one flakes

[*]Any new fish added to the tank? small baby oranda about a week ago (he is acting totally normal) and they get along very well - They even sleep together .. as I also mentioned the fluke like yawning etc. starting before the baby came along so I don't think this had anything to do with this..

[*]Any medications added to the tank? nope

[*]Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? just the clamped fins on the big oranda :(

[*]Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.? Clamped fins on big oranda.. both eating well.. big oranda tends to bottom sit and rest alot more than normal lately :(

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Hey Jada, sorry to hear about Wisco's problems. :( I have never had to deal with flukes so I really don't have any info from first hand experience that could help you out(sorry), but I did some looking around on koko's and found this.

http://www.kokosgoldfish.com/Body%20And%20Gill%20Flukes.html

I am not sure if you have read it or not yet but maybe it could give you some useful information. Hope it helps. :)

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Thanks :) I didn't see that.. I dont want to try anything yet w/o anyones direct advice :) I wish I could just try the peroxide dip but won't do anything w/o someone telling me to :) haha

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Good Idea, always get a second opinion. I overdosed my goldies on salt the other day on some very bad advise. Currently dealing with a parasite myself, goodluck.

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Thanks :( Stupid parasites grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr! Just sitting here watching him suffer .. it kills me! Seriously! Gonna try to get some sleep myself.. Goodnight! :(

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One other question.. if I did treat for flukes in the tank and it wasn't flukes.. this wouldn't hurt my two fish would it?? Thanks :)

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Seeing as your last params were all 0 that would indicate that you may have lost your cycle. Although you mentioned that you did a large water change prior to testing your water. However, your nitrite was at 1ppm so unless you did a 100% waterchange you should have still had nitrites show up on your last test. For example if you have nitrites at 2ppm and you do a 50% water change your next reading should show them at 1ppm. I can't think how you would suddenly have 0 across the board. Did you QT the small fish before adding to the tank ? I always treat new fish with wormer plus in qt before adding to my main tank. Most fish including healthy ones will carry some sort of parasite. Their immune system and good water params can keep these in check though. You could try increasing your tank temp to about 75 which will help speed up your cycle. I would advise against adding any meds at this time until your params are more stable and a mod can maybe give you a diagnosis on what exactly the problem might be.

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I didn't totally lose the cycle.. for sure.. The water was a tiny bit purple.. just not enough to even have reading on the nitrites that's all :) - The ammonia was yellow so 0 ppm totally but that's good since there was a purple tint to the water.. I just did a big enough change to totally get all the ammonia out and leave a bit of nitrites in the water.. I know I didn't lose the cycle it's fine :) - I dont' know if I should wait on the flukes.. being that his dorsal is down.. Im going to pick up some prazi today on my way home from school and check on him when I get home and see what everyone else has to say.. I hate to see him suffer if it's flukes.. and dont want to see it get worse.. like I said .. if it's something where I treat and it does mess up the cycle.. so be it.. since I do have a tank that's almost done and I can pop that media in this tank anyways and this tank will cycle quickly from that media...

Any other information/suggestions would be GREATLY appreciated.. will check his behavior when I get home :) Didn't want to wake him when I got up.. I went to bed 4 hours ago and that's not much rest for the poor little guy :) Usually he rests for the whole night like I do so I let him sleep in :) :) :) -

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if you are confident that the cycle is not lost.. then just to be sure, personally, i would wait till the morning, test again.. because i am not confident that you are currently cycled, i recommend that you do not use salt at all, just prazi..

the pain in the :fbottom: here will be $$ on prazi.. as you are doing 2 x 50% per day to get your filter to cycle, you will need to be replenishing the meds with each water change.

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if you are confident that the cycle is not lost.. then just to be sure, personally, i would wait till the morning, test again.. because i am not confident that you are currently cycled, i recommend that you do not use salt at all, just prazi..

the pain in the :fbottom: here will be $$ on prazi.. as you are doing 2 x 50% per day to get your filter to cycle, you will need to be replenishing the meds with each water change.

:goodpost

Jade hasn't lost her cycle, because she is actually trying to establish it! :)

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What are thoughts on nitrite toxicity and these symptoms as well? Maybe that's what it is? The tanks weird it'll go from .25 to 1ppm overnight its done that twice now....its so crazy I'm doing as much as I can I don't work again til Monday so plan to keep a hawk eye on the tank all weekend now...

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also do u suggest water chgs when nitrites or ammonia reach .25 or .50 I've been going by .50

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Hey Allyson :)

I didn't totally lose the cycle.. for sure.. The water was a tiny bit purple.. just not enough to even have reading on the nitrites that's all :)

What do you mean it was a tiny bit purple? Do you mean it was kind of a light periwinkle blue? I just ask because something I've noticed with the nitrite test kit is that it only goes up to 5 ppm, and during cycling nitrites often rise high above 5 ppm. When nitrites are above 5 ppm and you test with that kit, the color in the test tube turns a weird purple-gray that doesn't match any color on the card. I sure hope that's not what you're seeing, because that means nitrites are well above 5 ppm when it looks like that. Just want to make sure.

Regarding nitrite poisoning... I don't think that scratching is a sign of nitrite poisoning, although I suppose it's possible. More common signs of nitrite poisoning are gulping air at the oxygen-rich layer of water right at the surface, pale/tan/brown gills, and breathing heavier (rapid gill movement). I think excessive yawning could be a sign of nitrite poisoning, but it could also be a sign of flukes, so...

Regarding your question in the PM you sent me about Prazi; I would go to a small LFS near you (large chain stores don't carry Prazi) and find some PraziPro made by Hikari. It will be more spendy, but you'll have it on hand to start using right away. Then I would also order some Prazi from Goldfish Connection so you have that on the way for when you run out of PraziPro. You could order PraziPro online, but I've heard the Prazi Goldfish Connection sells is more potent and works better. It's in powder form and difficult to dissolve, but people do say that it works better. If you want you can order PraziPro instead, I'm sure it would still work fine. The choice is yours. I personally have used PraziPro, but in the future I want to try the Goldfish Connection's Prazi.

Then, if you can keep both ammonia and nitrite absolutely below .25 (zero if possible) then I might recommend that you can do a dose of Prazi. But you must not let either ammonia or nitrite rise above .25! Also, increase aeration by adding as many air stones/bubble wands as you can. Both flukes and medications in the water make breathing more difficult for the fish, so increasing aeration is a must. I would increase your daily water changes to 75% to keep the water as pristine as possible, but remember you'll have to redose the amount of Prazi you took out at each water change. It won't be cheap. :( The dosing schedule I use for prazi is to keep a dose in the water for three days, then no prazi for two days, and then dose again. For me, this means I simply dose every five days doing a water change before the new dose, because my tank is cycled. Prazi deactivates in the water after three days, so I don't have to do a water change in-between to remove the prazi. But you will have to do it differently since the tank is cycling right now and you cannot go five days without a water change. I would buy some small packets of activated carbon when you go to the fish store. Then after the three days with prazi is up, you can keep the carbon in for two days to "soak up" all the prazi. This will give you two days without prazi to allow the eggs to hatch out. (Prazi does not kill the egg form of the parasite) I would discard each carbon packet when you're done using it, since it will have been contaminated with flukes when you put it in the tank. Just use a new carbon packet each time. I like the buy the carbon inserts for the Aquaclear filters. If you buy the size meant for the 110 filters, it gives you three small packets of carbon, so this would be good to get you through the course of the treatment.

I hope all this made sense. Please ask if I wasn't clear enough about anything.

P.S. I know you said pH of tank and tap is "normal", but you NEED to test this! pH is known to fluctuate, so we need numbers!

Edited by Sakura

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Hey Allyson :)

I didn't totally lose the cycle.. for sure.. The water was a tiny bit purple.. just not enough to even have reading on the nitrites that's all :)

What do you mean it was a tiny bit purple? Do you mean it was kind of a light periwinkle blue? I just ask because something I've noticed with the nitrite test kit is that it only goes up to 5 ppm, and during cycling nitrites often rise high above 5 ppm. When nitrites are above 5 ppm and you test with that kit, the color in the test tube turns a weird purple-gray that doesn't match any color on the card. I sure hope that's not what you're seeing, because that means nitrites are well above 5 ppm when it looks like that. Just want to make sure.

Regarding nitrite poisoning... I don't think that scratching is a sign of nitrite poisoning, although I suppose it's possible. More common signs of nitrite poisoning are gulping air at the oxygen-rich layer of water right at the surface, pale/tan/brown gills, and breathing heavier (rapid gill movement). I think excessive yawning could be a sign of nitrite poisoning, but it could also be a sign of flukes, so...

Regarding your question in the PM you sent me about Prazi; I would go to a small LFS near you (large chain stores don't carry Prazi) and find some PraziPro made by Hikari. It will be more spendy, but you'll have it on hand to start using right away. Then I would also order some Prazi from Goldfish Connection so you have that on the way for when you run out of PraziPro. You could order PraziPro online, but I've heard the Prazi Goldfish Connection sells is more potent and works better. It's in powder form and difficult to dissolve, but people do say that it works better. If you want you can order PraziPro instead, I'm sure it would still work fine. The choice is yours. I personally have used PraziPro, but in the future I want to try the Goldfish Connection's Prazi.

Then, if you can keep both ammonia and nitrite absolutely below .25 (zero if possible) then I might recommend that you can do a dose of Prazi. But you must not let either ammonia or nitrite rise above .25! Also, increase aeration by adding as many air stones/bubble wands as you can. Both flukes and medications in the water make breathing more difficult for the fish, so increasing aeration is a must. I would increase your daily water changes to 75% to keep the water as pristine as possible, but remember you'll have to redose the amount of Prazi you took out at each water change. It won't be cheap. :( The dosing schedule I use for prazi is to keep a dose in the water for three days, then no prazi for two days, and then dose again. For me, this means I simply dose every five days doing a water change before the new dose, because my tank is cycled. Prazi deactivates in the water after three days, so I don't have to do a water change in-between to remove the prazi. But you will have to do it differently since the tank is cycling right now and you cannot go five days without a water change. I would buy some small packets of activated carbon when you go to the fish store. Then after the three days with prazi is up, you can keep the carbon in for two days to "soak up" all the prazi. This will give you two days without prazi to allow the eggs to hatch out. (Prazi does not kill the egg form of the parasite) I would discard each carbon packet when you're done using it, since it will have been contaminated with flukes when you put it in the tank. Just use a new carbon packet each time. I like the buy the carbon inserts for the Aquaclear filters. If you buy the size meant for the 110 filters, it gives you three small packets of carbon, so this would be good to get you through the course of the treatment.

I hope all this made sense. Please ask if I wasn't clear enough about anything.

P.S. I know you said pH of tank and tap is "normal", but you NEED to test this! pH is known to fluctuate, so we need numbers!

:goodpost

As you can see from Sakura's recommendations, it will be somewhat expensive AND very labor intensive to be nursing a tank with a developing cycle and treating with Prazi. If you do decide to do this (and it is doable, as detailed above), you need to know that there isn't much/any room for error, and that you will need to be zealous with monitoring tank conditions and doing huge water changes. Having said that, it's great that you are trying to take care of your goldies. :)

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I would just be so wary of medicating when the tank is clearly not cycled. It can get very dangerous very quickly. It could be weeks before it is cycled, but if it was me I would wait for the cycle to finish before adding meds. Two of my moors from Pet*mart had flukes for months before I could finally medicate for them when my cycle completed. They are perfectly fine now, and I believe it was best for me just to wait to med the tank.

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I would just be so wary of medicating when the tank is clearly not cycled. It can get very dangerous very quickly. It could be weeks before it is cycled, but if it was me I would wait for the cycle to finish before adding meds. Two of my moors from Pet*mart had flukes for months before I could finally medicate for them when my cycle completed. They are perfectly fine now, and I believe it was best for me just to wait to med the tank.

:exactly I was thinking the same thing... just because I've had experience trying to treat flukes (although with a harsher medication) while my tank was cycling. It was terrifying, to say the least. I waited until my tank was finished cycling, and I'm actually treating them now. Although, my fishes' fluke symptoms were not bad at all, so treatment wasn't urgent... :idont

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Normally I agree that it's best to wait until cycling is over to use any medications. But it sounds like Wisco's symptoms are pretty severe from what Allyson described. If she's willing to follow the directions I outlined above (mainly the twice daily 75% water changes, keeping ammonia and nitrite close to zero, and increasing aeration) I think it will be fine. Yes, Prazi is a medication, so it is not totally without stress to the fish. But it is one of the safest medications we have available to us, and fish don't normally react badly to it.

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Yeah, I guess her fish's symptoms do seem more severe. It is going to take probably a couple hundred bucks worth of Prazi to medicate that tank with all the waterchanges that will have to done though.

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Normally I agree that it's best to wait until cycling is over to use any medications. But it sounds like Wisco's symptoms are pretty severe from what Allyson described. If she's willing to follow the directions I outlined above (mainly the twice daily 75% water changes, keeping ammonia and nitrite close to zero, and increasing aeration) I think it will be fine. Yes, Prazi is a medication, so it is not totally without stress to the fish. But it is one of the safest medications we have available to us, and fish don't normally react badly to it.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking too towards the end of my post... Either option is obviously "risky" but it does seem that treating now is the less-risky option considering his symptoms. I hope everything goes smoothly and Wisco gets better soon!

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Yeah, I guess her fish's symptoms do seem more severe. It is going to take probably a couple hundred bucks worth of Prazi to medicate that tank with all the waterchanges that will have to done though.

You are exaggerating right? There's no way it would cost a couple hundred! lol

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Allyson, try to take a video of Wisco & upload it on here, please. I don't have any reason to doubt you at all, but I know that in my experience I've made out my fish's symptoms to be much worse that they actually are. Also, I've always been of the opinion that since we have this great forum of people here to back us up, it is best to also make use to many pairs of eyes also. Sakura has outlined a great plan for you to follow, but I think if possible it's probably better to delay treatment until your cycle is done. The video will be of immensely help in determining that :)

Also, even if you use Prazipro, it would not cost hundreds of dollars. I just did a quick search on amazon. A 16 oz. bottle of Prazipro costs $32.17. 16 oz is enough to treat 1920 gallons, which is enough to re-dose a 26 gallon tank 74 times. Assuming that she does 2x daily 100% water changes, that is about 1 month supply of treating with Prazipro everyday! So, all in all, if she does choose to go through with this, it shouldn't cost her more than $40. :)

Edited by dnalex

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God guys your giving me a heart attack ! :thud !!!!! another thing I want to add.. Im posting a picture.. is this egg poop?? He (maybe it's a she!!!!???) someone.. pooped this.. and it looks like egg poop from what I hear egg poop looks like.. and when he/she does that hold his/her breath thing and puffs up.. is this maybe her/him trying to pass the eggs but not being able to? Could this be the problem :( OH GOSH :( poor guy/girl....Ill post picture shortly :):(

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Woops here I thought your name was Allyson, and I just realized that's actually your cat's name! lol Sorry!

Try to calm down, I'm sure everything will be okay. :) Let's just take this one thing at a time. I think occasionally not swimming perfectly straight is normal for most goldfish. They're not the best swimmers because of their extreme body shapes. I don't think the "holding breath" look has anything to do with eggs. That probably is because of gill irritation either caused by nitrites or flukes.

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Lol.. I was getting a kick out of you guys thinking my name was Allyson.. its actually Jade :rofl

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