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Bash

Need Emergency Help Now!

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So as to avoid confusion I merged your two topics on the same fish and moved to the right forum.

Hope you fish it better soon.

Good luck

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Unfortunately spooky died 10 minutes after I posted the last message. I uhm cut her open to see what was going on inside of her and I've figured out with the help of that good friend of ours that spooky had the following things which resulted in her death:

- She was utterly deformed from the inside, everything was in the wrong place.

- As a result of this she developped a bacterial infection which went for her intestines

- That also resulted in dropsy (kidney was completely black)

- She then got a nitrite/ammoniac poisening which eventually killed her.

It's very unfortunate that she died but seeing the condition she was in, completely deformed from the inside it was better she went now and not when she was older. Because she could've been floating belly upwards at one point and not turn around again, then drop to the floor untill she would actually die.

So for now we can only say , thank you so much for all the help and advice, we really appreciate it. Captain, you were dead on with both your diagnoses unfortunately it wouldn't have helped here but thank you so much for trying to help us.

This story didn't end well so al we can say is, R.I.P little girl...

Edited by Bash

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Thank you very much for your sympathy amyn and jojo.

Unfortunately we´re not out of the woods yet. Our other fish bash is now having problems too and this time it´s a parasite which we can see with the naked eye. I removed a few of them and put them in a container with some water and we took them to the LFS. They checked it out under the microscope and he said they were Fish lice. Now not knowing what they looked like I wanted to check them out for myself so I peaked in the microscope too (my gf did too). I saw this little creature which moved with a sort of swirly black tail.

The guy seemed sure it was fish lice so he gave us Hs Camacell. We added the right dosis and now after 3 days the little things are still there. Seeing as our fish still isn't behaving normal, I decided to look up the Fish Lice to find out what else we could do. Now it turns out, the thing we saw in our tank doesn't look like a Fish Lice at all and it doesn't behave the same way.

Comparing them

- Our parasite is not green and is not visible on bash

- The parasite is mostly on the windows

- The parasite is brown and black under the light of the microscope and looks like an oval shaped cell which has a creature inside it that has a black swirly tail.

- Bash is not rubbing against things or jumping out the water.

- Bash is however not eating all that much anymore, as of today. She doesn't swim as much anymore and she sits still in between the plants often. She's also losing weight. There are no visible spots on her, like white dots or anything like that, to indicate the lice is already in the body.

- There are no weird red worms coming out of her behind.

So my question is, does anyone know what this is? Or have a microscopic picture of it, so I can compare them. Also should I open a new topic for this?

Ow and bash also has an internal bacterial infection seeing as spooky had it too and she was in the tank with bash for a while before we took her out to threat her. (bash was fine before spooky went out). We already have a medicine for the bacterial infection and wanted to start it 1 week after this treatment but we're not sure on that now.

Edited by Bash

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fish lice are green creatures which you can see with the naked eye -

My link

what do you see on the fish with the naked eye? Is the creature on the fish or just in the tank?

I really wouldn't ask advice at LFS unless you know the person has X years of experience with goldfish. Most meds will cause more harm then good - especially if you treat for the wrong things.

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No they don't look like that at all. We don't see anything on the fish just on the tank glass. The lfs has been selling koi's for over 30 years so I thought they would have experience with parasites and deseases, that's why we went there.

We know about not adding medicine to the water, we oppose of it actually unless we can really see there is something wrong and know what it is. Because of their experience with koi's we thought we could listen to them, but I guess not <_> -sigh-

The parasite looks like a drop of water with a muddy color inside of it. That muddy color had a distinctive core and it moved within the muddy color. It used a black swirly uhm line to move too. Ow but it didn't actually move from it's place it just stayed on the glass but the core moved so it was alive.

Edited by Bash

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I think what you have is Planaria - it isn't a 'parasite' that will attack the fish. Most meds won't kill it. It comes from an excess in detritus - uneaten food, waste etc.

I think you need to do a good tank maintenance - such as clean your gravel and ornaments extra well. Also swish your filter material in used tank water (in a bucket).

What are your parameters?

you said you have medicine for internal infection? are the fish pooping white poop or have scales sticking out? what meds would that be?

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Planaria? It doesn't even look like that :s Uneaten food? with our fish that never happened untill spooky got sick but even then bash would eat everything. I do understand what you mean with the forms of life which are harmless for the fish but they still don't look anything like this.

I'll give you the specs of the tank,the filter and the waterchanges we do normally and the water values. Okay so the tank is 1m x 35 cm x 45cm which is roughly 120L (taking the bodem/plants/and wood off it). We have sand on the bottom mixed with a bit of unsharp gravel. When we got the tank we thought it would be a good idea to put a small layer of gravel in the bottom and then add a thicker layer of sand. That way the plants could rote better...little did we know that the gravel would come up >_> luckily it's not a lot and it isn't sharp but we're gonna switch to an all sand bodem anyways ^^

Okay the filtration is done by a tetratec e700 and we do a 60% waterchange per week (devided over 2 days). The water parameters are:

No2 = 0

Ph = 8

Gh = 7

Kh = 9

The medicine for bacteria is: 'Bactyfec' of the brand 'Colombo'

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you need readings for Ammonia, and Nitrates in order to understand what part of the cycle you are at.

I understand that you think you are doing everything good etc - but if your fish keep getting sick then there must be something wrong. If the creatures you are seeing aren't on the fish then it is most likely something harmless - especially if you see them with your naked eyes. Dangerous parasites are not visible to the naked eye.

The issue is that when you say 'thick' sand/gravel then that is a great place for bacteria and air pockets to form. Most members on this forum have barebottom for this exact reason. If you already had one fish die from an internal infection and the others are showing signs of it too then it is more probably due to a bacterial problem than a parasitic problem.

When I say uneaten food it can just as well be poop etc - anything which can get bacteria.

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Thank you for your response captian. My apologies if I sound 'stupid' or 'stubborn'. We've only had goldfish for about 6 months so we're very new to all of this. We've learned a lot along the way but there is still much to learn. So many different people say so many different things it's sometimes hard to filter out the good info.

But we want to do the good thing for this fish and future fish so what we've learned so far is that spooky died from a combination of things. Even if she would've survived it, she would've ended up having problems later on seeing as everything was so messed up from the inside.

We had a drop-teskit for the nitrates but it wasn't accurate (it was from colombo) we couldn't test the NH3/NH4 yet seeing as we don't have the money to buy these kits >_> but if it is needed I'll get it.

Ow and just a curiuous question, parasites like ich and fish lice are visible too and those are dangerous? But the ones we have aren't dangerous because they are not on the fish, right? ^^

Okay and the barebottom, is it better than if we'd take this bottom out? And if we do, where should we put the plants? Ow and what's a cycle? What do you mean with that?

Uhm about the waste, I knew what you meant with that, sorry for the confusion ^^ But for now, what's the best thing we could do? We did put medicine in there and bash does have a bacterial infection. Wouldn't it be very stressful to change everything now?

Edited by Bash

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Spooky had dropsy right? I had a couple fish survive that, but they remain very sensitive.

I would invest in the ammonia test kit - you can order the API brand from ebay Germany.

My link

It really is pretty crucial as ammonia is deadly. You can read about cycling in the link in my signature - basically the fish's breathing and pooping produces ammonia - this gets eaten by good bacteria in the filter which turns it to nitrites - which in turn gets eaten by other bacteria which turn it into nitrates (which is harmless in low quantities). If you have had the tank for 6 months then it is likely cycled. But better have all the testers and do a weekly test before the water change.

I personally would remove most, if not all the bottom. Do you have pictures of the tank set up? If you choose to remove it tho - you must take out the fish and put them in a bucket with an airstone in the meantime - the gas pockets that could have formed and really harmful when released.

I can only tell you what works for me, and many other members on this forum. If kept properly goldfish really shouldn't need meds etc.

You can take a look in our photo section for ideas of how some members keep their tanks - My link

these are 2 of my tanks - I have plants on rocks

DSCN3899.jpg

DSCN3238-1.jpg

I also had sand and gravel before I can here - but all my fish got sick with dropsy from the buildup of bacteria in the substrate.

Ow and just a curiuous question, parasites like ich and fish lice are visible too and those are dangerous? But the ones we have aren't dangerous because they are not on the fish, right? ^^

yup those are dangerous, but in my mind much less life threatening than other viscous parasites which you cannot diagnose without a microscope - which are much faster killers. I wouldn't be worried about those things unless you see them ON the fish. DO you have a picture of them? I do think they are some form of planaria if they are hanging out on the windows.

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Yes among other things she did have that but she was still not a good quality fish. We don?t get a lot of those here >_> So like I said even if she would've have survived it wouldn't have taken long for her to have problems with her deformed intestines.

Thank you for the link! Is JBL also a good brand for testing kits? We we were already planning on switching over to those and it's easier to get them. Yes, I understand what you mean with the cycle. The plants also take in the 'N' in NH3/NH4, NO2 and NO3 and use that as a nutrition. They also produce oxigen during the day and use oxigen at night I believe.

We always test weekly before the waterchange with the tests we have so adding another one wouldn't be a problem =) I don't really like bare bottom tanks but we've got nothing to lose, I think I just have to get used to it. For example I like the colors of rocks you used in the first tank cuz it seems more natural ^^ I'll look at more tanks to get some more ideas.

I don't have a picture of the tank how it is now (we re-arranged some plants and removed a piece of wood with an anubia nana on it) but it gives a decent indication.This was from 5 weeks ago:

Left

dsc00031sj.jpg

Middle

dsc00033dd.jpg

Right

dsc00034ib.jpg

But uhm if we change to a bare bottom, won't it be too stressful for bash? Seeing as she's just had the medicine treatment which is finished next sunday and she has that bacterial infection. Should we wait untill then to change everything, or do it now? Should we do a waterchange to and clean out the filter or wait with that? I know there is a huge change we could get a nitrite/ammoniak peak if we do a waterchange and clean out the filter.

I understand what you mean with those parasites and no I don't have a picture of the ones we have. They are just too small to photograph. I only have the description I gave you but numerous little buggers look like that.

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sure yea JBL is also very good. the ammonia and nitrates are important - especially because meds kill off the good filter bacteria - so you might have ammonia in there.

you have a nice tank :) but the sand could be a problem for the goldfish. how about just thinning it out where the plants aren't rooted? like just leave a thin cover in the front?

You can suck up a bit of sand everyday so it doesn't shock the fish

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Ah okay, we'll go for those now I think. Trying to check wether there is a better brand out there.

Well the problem is we can't change water during the mecidine threatment >_> because we'd take the medicine out of the water.(the threatment lasts for 7 days, it will be done next sunday). But I think we're gonna go bare bottom anyways and put the plants which can go on rocks or real/fake wood (which isn't sharp). I'd like to have a bit of bottom but I also know that a bottom is a bottom doesn't matter how thick it is. So the bad bacteria would always have a chance to grow in there, that and bash always like to search for food in between the plants and if the bottom is too thin bash will just pull all the plants out, she loves to do that xD

and thank you for your comment on the tank ^^

Edited by Bash

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Anyone have any advice on what we could do, regarding the previous message?

Edited by Bash

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Well another update on this situation. Bash took a turn for the worse now. Because spooky had worms, we treated bash with camacell to clear out her worms. We wanted to use an anti bacterial medicine too but I forgot to get the same brand so we had to do it after the camacell was done. Bash was just getting worse and worse, she stayed in the plants a lot just sitting on the bottom and she barely ate. After 5 days of camacell we took it out and put in coal to filter out the meds. We wanted to wait for another week before putting the bactyfec (Colombo) in but bash took a turn for the worse sunday evening. She already had this red spot on one side of her gills which now turned grey and her fins were turning black at the top.

My gf came home and saw bash on bottom sitting still, she hadn't eaten anything and still hasn't eaten any food. She's very thin and it looks so bad. We took the coal out of the filter and did a 100% water change seeing as the cool had only been in there for 4 days. We wanted to get all the medicine out. Then we added the anti bacterial medicine and now after almost 20 hours, there's still no change in her condition <_>

Does anyone know how long it takes for medicine to work, we'd hate to lose yet another fish. If anyone can help us, please do so. Bash needs to be on this medicine for 1 week but she seems so fragile now =( Is the only thing we can do, wait?

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I think you really have to stop using all these meds. your problems are all probably linked to bad quality. there is no point in to keep adding meds if you don't have the water quality under control. what are your parameters?

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Well actually the only meds we added is camacell, and now bactyfec. Just two of them, we've never added meds before. I wouldn't have even added meds if bash wasn't this sick. With spooky in the quarantaine tank we only added salt.

Parameters are now:

Ph: 8

Kh: 8

Gh: 6

No2: 0

NH3/NH4 kits were ordered today so they should arrive somewhere this week. The water is nice and clear, not white which would indicate an ammonium/ammonia peak.

Edited by Bash

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You really need the ammonia and the nitrates. anyways, if you added any water meds while the filter was running they probably killed all the beneficial bacteria. I really think you should stop any medications as long as any antibiotic courses and finished and just do daily 50% water changes.

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Uhm I didn't get your last sentence. If there would be any ammonium or ammonia it would've been taken out yesterday. We did a full 100% water change so bad water is not possible. Also the camacell doesn't kill off the good bacteria it says so in the medicine description. What we actually wanted to do was the following:

- Camacell: 1 week

- Filter over coal: 1 week (also to give bash some rest)

- Bactyfec: 1 week

- Filter over coal again

- Camacell: again for if there were any worm eggs left.

But this is what happened because bash's condition got worse

- Camacell: 5 days ( because bash wasn't eating anything anymore and she just got worse)

- Coal in filter: 4 days

- 100% water change after the coal was taken out of the filter, also to prevent an ammonia peak

- Bactyfec in the water....and wait...

My gf just told me, bash was swimming arround in stress and now some of her scales are turning black on one side and a corner of her upper lip and mouth is dark red. This has to be something bacterial, but what? If we stop the medicine yet again and just do water changes it won't help, seeing as we already did a huge water change and it didn't work.

Edited by Bash

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black is the sign of ammonia burns. just do daily 50% water changes and I am sure she will start acting better.

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My apologies if it seems I keep argueing with you captain. I don't mean to and I appreciate all the help. We even took your advice on going bare bottom,before we added this medicine we were already taking out sand. Not too much but little by little taking out more. We were filtering on coal so we could do a waterchange and clean some of the sand up. We'll be getting the NH3/NH4 test kit in 2-3 days and a new NO2 kit (it's empty after it's use today). If we test the water and those come out good, what else could it be?

Symptoms so far are:

- Not eating

- White poo (not anymore after the cama cell plus she stopped eating

- Strange coloration. Black on the fins tips and a bit on the scales now, dark red on the upper lip and mouth. Grey spot on the gills.

- Bottom sitting and stressed swimming

Edit: Just saw your post, okay so 50% water changes then. But if we do that than the bacteria will get resistant to the medicine which is in the tank because the dosis will be halved :s And if it is ammonia burns..then why didn't she feel better after yesterday? We did a full 100% change and still no change.

Pff..<_> I'm utterly confused.

Edited by Bash

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what medicine is he still in the middle of? how many days do you have left? if it is an antibiotic you will then have to do 50% water changes and redose the medicine for that 50% you took out.

All the symptoms are really a sign of stress and the dark coloring is a sign of healing from ammonia burns.

I think daily water changes - 50% until you get the testers and we see your parameters to better adjust. finish any medicine which is antibiotic. don't continue the worm ones for now. he should be fine as long as he really gets good water. ammonia is such a poison it will stress the fish very quick and get it sick also.

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Okay, so the blackness means it's healing from ammonia burns? Great...we thought we had everything right and now this >_> When this is all over and we finally have a barebottom thank I'll be so relieved!

We already stopped the worm medicine 5 days ago. She's only on bactyfec now, we started it yesterday and has to stay in for 7 days. It's an anti bacterial medicine from the brand Colombo (also works against fungus).

Can we do 50% water changes with this medicine too?

Also we added an extra air pump attached to a ball where bubbles come out(added that yesterday), should we take that out cuz of the ammonia?

Edited by Bash

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