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Bash

Need Emergency Help Now!

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Hello everyone,

I?m still pretty new to this forum but I made an account because I saw your help with diseases and sickness is pretty fast. Which is something you don?t usually see on other ?fish forums?. My girlfriend and I have 2 goldfish, one is a fantail or a ryukin and one was a panda demekin but she turned almost completely white. 3 weeks ago the panda started to show some weird behaviour and her poop turned white. My girlfriend fed her some peas and everything seemed fine again for 2 days but then she got white poop yet again and her backfin was down a lot. She also didn?t swim as much as she used to and she didn?t eat as much.

A good friend of ours told us to put her in water with salt, keeping the percentage at 0,5% per 10L of water. A strong fish is able to stay on this level for 4 weeks with ease. After a few days in this solution she started to eat again, even started hunting after the food and she swam a lot with her backfin straigt up. She wasn?t squeezing her fins either. After a few days however she had white poo again and that same friend advised to feed her some more peas to clean out her system, could be she just had a blockage which needed to be cleared out. We fed her the peas and after a few hours there was some green poo in the tank which she ate straight away again, after that...almost no poo anymore. The poo that did come out was light of colour or white and it wasn?t a lot. 3 days ago she started to swim less and less again and she rested a lot on the floor with her fins squeezed together and her backfin down.

Yet again the same friend asked us to bring her to a specialist to check under the microscope if she had any bacteria of parasites. Because the salt should?ve solved it, unless it was a bacteria or parasite which was immune to salt. So we decided to get her checked out today. Yesterday it became worse and she stopped eating. This morning my girlfriend was not paying attention, neither did she pay attention yesterday which resulted in the following. When I arrived the water was this velvet white color and the panda was on her side breathing slowly. I bend over to look at her better and to my shock I saw a lot of foodpellets stuck in the internal filter...which resulted in an NO2 peak. According to my girlfriend the water was velvet white this morning and not the day before. She didn't know why the water was like that and she wanted to change it when she back from her classes. Seeing as we had to take her to the specialist, I prepared water of the same temperature in the container we had for her and added the right amount of salt so she wouldn?t have any shock from the temperature or salt difference. We filled the container (is a big uhm box ,about 45L, where you keep food cool in, hadn't been used yet) for 50% with the prepared water on the right temperature and put the fish in there. She started swimming almost immediatly and we left for the specialist. Well, unfortunately the specialist (koi seller and breeder) didn't see any parasite, he couldn't check for bacteria because he didn't have the right equipment for it.

So we still don't have an answer to what is wrong with her. After we came back, we cleaned out the tank entirely, added the salt in the right concentration and adjusted the temperature. Then we added the panda again and we were so happy when she started swimming again...only to be dissapointed again when she swam to the bottom, tilted a bit, squeezed her fins and stayed there only a minute after being put in her tank again. It's been almost 1,5 hours now and she's still in the same position, breathing slowly and sometimes coming to swim for a tiny bit, to then drop back down again. The specialist advised us to keep her on a temperature of 32 degrees celcius for the next two weeks and add an extra airpump to keep the oxigin levels at the right temperature. If she then dies...well then there was nothing we could do.

I'll answer the questions at the top of this page too if it helpes because we really don't know what to do.

[*]Test Results for the Following:

[*]Ammonia Level? We don't have a driptest for that yet

[*]Nitrite Level? 0

[*]Nitrate level? 0

[*]Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)? 7,5

[*]Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)? 15

[*]Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? Drip tests, Tetra

[*]Water temperature? 23 degrees

[*]Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? 60 x 30 x 40 is the q-tank size, it has been running for 2 weeks

[*]What is the name and size of the filter(s)? The tank is a juwel tank but has a stronger filter. It's an internal filter with a 600L p/h capacity (real capacity is about 400L p/h.

[*]How often do you change the water and how much? 50% every 2 days, we than add the right amount of salt again ( 50 gram per 10L of water)

[*]How many fish in the tank and their size? 1 and she is 12cm including tail

[*]What kind of water additives or conditioners? none

[*]What do you feed your fish and how often? 3 times a day, and varies from hikari, to frozen food and so on. She got a bit less the last 2 weeks to prevent nitrite peaks.

[*]Any new fish added to the tank? no, it's a q-tank only used for sick fish. We bought it for the panda when she started behaving strange.

[*]Any medications added to the tank? no

[*]Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? no

[*]Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.? Yes, see above story.

On the outside there is nothing apart from the fins being squeezed together which seems abnormal. According to our friend her stomach did seem a bit bigger than usual.

I hope someone her can help us. We are not disturbing the panda now, we just put her in the tank an hour ago and left her to rest. It could be stress symptoms too but we're not sure.

Ow and normally she resided in a 1m long tank with just 1 other fantail/ryukin and 2 applesnails ow and one uhm a snail that came along with the plants. My aplogies for the long message, I tried to describe everything as good as I possibly could.

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Hi Bash,and welcometo.jpgCan you answer all the ?s for the tank she came FROM also? She is suffering from poor water quality. I don't understand the size of the qt being 60x30x40-I'm not a metric person and don't know how many fracs of a meter you're talking about. It is VERY important to test for ammonia-especially in an uncycled tanktestkit.gif

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Hi there!

Okey, like Susan said it is probably linked to the bad water - if the water is only running for 2 weeks you are probably still in the toxic ammonia stage - which is a problem to check if you don't have tests for ammonia. Are you familiar with cycling ammonia - nitrites - nitrates? Right now your main worry is ammonia not nitrites.

I am thinking your tank is around 75liters - 20gal. So good for 1 fish.

I would personally do 2x 50% daily water changes for now until you can get an ammonia test kit.

Also, take the temp slowly back down - that is VERY hot for goldfish - and it will make the ammonia more poisonous. Get the tank to about 24C. (slowly - like 1degree less every few hrs)

Is she still in salt? It is believed that salt with ammonia in the tank are not a good idea.

So clean water for now only.

If she keeps having problems we can look into parasites - she probably has a certain amount of flukes so you will need to get hold of 'praziquantel'.

Do you live near Tiel? The KoiCenter there has everything you need - they are also very knowledgable :)

Great to have another European around!

Edit: Just realized she is from another tank. Susan is right - testing that tank is also going to help. Unless the results are from the main tank?

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Was this fish ever QT before this... How long have you had this fish.?

Is there any way of getting a pic....?

The other thing I thought of... the Ph question it seems kinda strange hun... can you tell us again or is that KH.. sorry confused here :o

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I know for a fact she is not suffering from poor water quality from when she was in the 1m tank seeing as we test the water in that tank every three days but I'll answer the questions anyways =). The 1-tank she is in now is 60cm x 30cm x 40cm which is roughly 72 liters (is only a quarantaine tank), seeing as the tank isn't filled fully and the internal filter takes up space, there's only 60L of water in there. The tank does not have any healthy bacteria in it because the water is changed every 2 days ;) this is purely because she showed weird symptoms for a week, 3 weeks ago.

Now for the big tank:

[*]Test Results for the Following:

[*]Ammonia Level? We don't have a driptest for that yet

[*]Nitrite Level? 0

[*]Nitrate level? 0

[*]Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)? 7,5

[*]Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)? 15

[*]Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? Drip tests, Tetra

[*]Water temperature? 21 degrees

[*]Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? 1m x 35 x 45, has been running for 5,5 months now and has never had a NO2 peak nor NO3 peak.

[*]What is the name and size of the filter(s)? The filter is a tetratec e700 external filter.

[*]How often do you change the water and how much? 60% every week, (devided in 2 times a week)

[*]How many fish in the tank and their size? 1 fish at the moment, the fantail/ryukin is 13cm with tail there are 2 applesnails in there too and one other snail which came with the plants.

[*]What kind of water additives or conditioners? none

[*]What do you feed your fish and how often? 4 times a day, and varies from hikari, to frozen food and so on. The fantail gets more food now because she could use a bit more body on her. I've included a picture of her (Bash) and the panda (Spooky) from when they were still healthy.

[*]Any new fish added to the tank? No

[*]Any medications added to the tank? no

[*]Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? No

[*]Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.? For the fantail, no

This is bash now

img0451kk.th.jpg

This was spooky 3 weeks ago

spooky7.th.jpg

Our good friend just told me, she probably has a nitrite poisening because my girlfriend didn't pay attention the past 2 days. So the nitrite poisening will be solved with an extra air pump in there. The poisening does explain the last symtoms, not eating and tilting. But it still doesn't explain her poo and weird behaviour. Before yesterday her poo has been white for the past weeks or with a bit of color in it. Even after eating 10 cooked peas without the shell, her poo was minimal, as in it was only 0.5cm long.

@Koko: Yes she has been in QT before, we have had her for about 3 months and she was perfectly fine in the beginning. I even have a video of her then, when she went in the tank after 2 weeks of QT. I'll add the video of when we had her for 2 weeks and she went in the big 1m tank.

The tank looks a lot different now btw ;)

Edited by Bash

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Sorry about the PH, the tap is 7,5 too! I mixed it up with the kh. So the ph in the tank is 7,5 and the ph of the tap water is 7,5

Edited by Bash

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[*]What kind of water additives or conditioners? none

When you do a water change do you not add any water conditioner to protect the fish from harmful metals and chlorine?

[*]Ammonia Level? We don't have a driptest for that yet

[*]Nitrite Level? 0

[*]Nitrate level? 0

Usually you should show nitrates in a cycled tank - unless you have lots of plants. Could you get the ammonia tested?

Our good friend just told me, she probably has a nitrite poisening because my girlfriend didn't pay attention the past 2 days.

It is rather unlikely that it is nitrites in such a young tank. More probably ammonia - especially with the cloudy water.

WHat did your QT involve?

White poop is either constipation, internal worms/infection or stress poop (could come from flukes).

Usually the change in color is normal - as in the video she is very dark. But sometimes the loss of color can be lowered immunity.

Edit: also, 10 peas for a fish her size is a little too much. I wouldn't feed more than 1 or 2 at every meal.

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There are nitrates in the tank yes, our testkit is just weird >_> It's from colombo and it keeps saying it's 1 and we have no idea what that means. So there are nitrates in the water, we just don't know how many. Sorry if my answers contain some errors, I'm a wee bit stressed out from today. Okay..it's apparently ammonia and nitrite poisening...combined. While I'm talking on this forum to you guys, I'm chatting with my good friend, so sorry if the answers are a bit weird.

The 10 peas was only once to clean her out ;) We usually don't feed peas and if we do it's only 2 peas per fish every 2 weeks. The change in color of her body is not what I meant with change in color. Her poo changed too a white slimy color ;) and it's only a very small amount, way too little for what she gets fed.

Ow and no we don't add water prepare stuff to our water seeing as the water has been cleared by the gouvernment and there are no heavy metals or whatever in there. The gouvernment is obligated to test the drinking water and post these results to the public.

Okay so update report, we now know she has an ammonia poisening and nitrite poisening, this happened because my girlfriend didn't pay close enough attention for the past 3 days. When we came back from the specialist, we checked the nitrite lvl, is was in the red zone. That's how we now know it's also a nitrite poisening. We did a full 100% water change, cleaned out the filter and brought the water back up to 23 degrees celcius and added the right amount of salt to get the 0,50% lvl. We put her back in the tank and now finally after 4 hours, she swam for a bit again.

Tomorrow I'm gonna get an air pump to get as much oxigen in there as possible and 2 days from now we'll do a 50% water change and we will start raising the temperature with 4 degrees celcius, 2 in the morning and 2 in the evening untill it reaches the 32 degrees, then she will stay on that water for 2 weeks. If she has any internal parasites or bacteria they will come out. (friend's and specialists advice)

The only thing I actually wanted to know is if someone ever had this before, no symtoms on the outside apart from the weird behaviour I described and the weird to no poo at all.

Edited by Bash

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Ow yes and our Q tank involved, 2 weeks of observing. We didn't knew about salt back then or else we would've put her on a 0.2% salt solution. But then again if she already had anything 3 months ago, the salt wouldn't have worked then either.

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Usually QT is a month of salt at 0.3%, prazi for flukes and possibly a dewormer for internal worms.

Be careful not to do any of the changes you are doing too quick - dropping temps very fast will only send her in shock.

The white poop like I said before:

White poop is either constipation, internal worms/infection or stress poop (could come from flukes).

And even if your water is cleared you still need to put a conditioner. I live in the swiss alps where the water is perfect and I still condition. Fish have different requirements than we do.

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Ah okay, I have no idea what prazi is btw but I'll look into it, same as the dewormer.

We're not dropping the temperature we're raising it. We're doing it gradually like the way it would happen in a pond.

It probably is either an internal infection/bacteria or indeed worms. By raising the temperature and adding the air pomp, all the bacteria should come out and be killed. Ah yes and ofcourse give her 2,5 grams a day of food ( in 4 feedings) because of the warmer water her motabelism (sorry for the misspelling) will work faster.

We're not to keen on using medication seeing as the bacteria and parasites are getting immune to it. That's one of the main reasons we only use medicins, if we are sure what it is. We don't use medication to prevent illnesses.

Okay water conditioners it is then.

Edited by Bash

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Ah okay, I have no idea what prazi is btw but I'll look into it, same as the dewormer.

We're not dropping the temperature we're raising it. We're doing it gradually like the way it would happen in a pond.

It probably is either an internal infection/bacteria or indeed worms. By raising the temperature and adding the air pomp, all the bacteria should come out and be killed. Ah yes and ofcourse give her 2,5 grams a day of food ( in 4 feedings) because of the warmer water her motabelism (sorry for the misspelling) will work faster.

We're not to keen on using medication seeing as the bacteria and parasites are getting immune to it. That's one of the main reasons we only use medicins, if we are sure what it is. We don't use medication to prevent illnesses.

Okay water conditioners it is then.

Prazi = Praziquantel is an antihelminthic drug which works against flukes, worms, and certain other parasites. It is also used to treat humans and other animals like cats & dogs :)

Edited by dnalex

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By raising the temperature and adding the air pomp, all the bacteria should come out and be killed.

Not sure this is really true. Actually I am pretty sure it isn't. If it is indeed an internal infection it will need to be cured with antibiotics. If it is worms with a dewormer. And if it is flukes the Prazi.

Non of these make resistant bacteria unless you don't finish the course and use it too often.

However, since you had water issues we cannot sure out that the poop is just stress poop from poisonous water.

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Ah okay thank you dnalex. And everyone thank you for all the help! I will keep you updated on the situation. Pff today was one of the most stressful days I've had with the fish. It was going fine for the past 6 months and we were so happy our tank wasn't overcrowded and our fish were growing like wheat o.o Bash was 4cm long when we got her and now she's 13 with tail and still growing. We think she might become a ryukin if her hump developes more but if it doesn't develop than she's just a fantail =) I may start an album later on but for now we're concentrating on getting spooky back to good health again.

If anyone has anymore advice, please tell me ^^

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Just read your response captain, how can we be sure it's an internal infection? and what antibiotics should we look at? Okay good to know, when we buy a bigger tank and add new fish (won't be till september or so this year) we can use those methods you described? But doesn't the salt actually counter act the medicine? I know the huge disadvantage of keeping fish on salt is that medecine won't work then.

The poop was already white 3 weeks ago and I know for sure the water was okay then seeing as we test the big tank every 3 days and she was still in there back then. So the poop and her behaviour were already abnormal before she went in the q tank. My girlfriend just made it worse >_> with the nitrites and ammonia.

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Our fantail is floating belly-up on the bottom. She has her mouth open constantly and can't swim upright anymore. Holding her now to keep her upright, close to the filter, not too close. Her scales are inflated. Wach other topic, she has internal infection, don't know what but it's bad. She has a very bad nitrite- and ammonia poisoning combined. There is an airpump in the tank.

Edited by Bash

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Did you do a good water change? Can you answer all of these questions for us here?

[*]Test Results for the Following:

[*]Ammonia Level?

[*]Nitrite Level?

[*]Nitrate level?

[*]Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)?

[*]Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)?

[*]Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops?

[*]Water temperature?

[*]Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running?

[*]What is the name and size of the filter(s)?

[*]How often do you change the water and how much?

[*]How many fish in the tank and their size?

[*]What kind of water additives or conditioners?

[*]What do you feed your fish and how often?

[*]Any new fish added to the tank?

[*]Any medications added to the tank?

[*]Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus?

[*]Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.?

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It's still good to post them incase anything has changed in the past 24 hours. Have you done a water change since yesterday?

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Yes, 50% waterchange today, the values are all still the same and okay. testing no2 right now just in case

edit: n02 is still good

Edited by Bash

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Please, help us. We're sitting up all night doing this now. Should I kill her, should I leave her floating? Should I keep holding her? We really dopn't want to lose her, but what would be the best thing to do?

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we need more information. are her scales sticking out? does she have any redness?

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scales are sticking out, no redness

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then she has internal infection, fluid retention and now dropsy.

you need to get her in a hospital tank. slowly raise the temperature to about 27C. Get some EPSON salts (found in pharmacy) and dose 1/4 teaspoon for 10Gal. Then you need to get your hands on the metronidazole food - Jungle AntiParasitic can be found in Europe.

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