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Dr.house's Mouth Is Locked Shut!


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I think that unless I fix the gill the mouth won't work. I gave her the daphia which are literally TINY - like little specks - but it seems that she can't go into 'suction mode' anymore...

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i jsut thought that if the water had liquid food in it she would "intake" from other areas such as nasal or gills.. i'm not sure how it works for a fish, we humans may be different like that.. i have no other suggestions hun.. i hope for some miracle she gets better :angelstaf:

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? for CFG,

when vet inspected fish did he look inside of the mouth? if yes, what was seen?

fish still is active and swims?

gills, are red and "clean" looking? not white on edges or tattered and clumped?

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hey Mikroll.

NO, vet didn't check inside mouth as she is too small and he wanted to anesthetize her to do that. :( I didn't let him. Could something be stuck in there you think??? I can always have him come back and anesthetize her and check - we don't have much to loose. If she cannot open her mouth and eat she will starve...

No she is no longer active and swimming. She looks very weak and spends most of the time on the floor - with fins relaxed and dorsal up tho. She did swim when I put the food in (even if she didn't manage to get it)

Vet checked gills from far with flashlight - he said they look clean but on the pale side. (the balls I have seen were gone when he came)

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this is what my vet just sent me:

"

It could be that it happened as you say. However, swollen gills can be caused by different factors, gill flukes being just one of them. On a skin scrape we only see the freshly hatched gill fluke larvae. Adult gill flukes sit on the gills. Therefore we cannot exclude 100% that there are still some flukes around but it would be strange after all the treatments. If there are still flukes present it is also an indication that her immune system is very weak regarding fighting against gill flukes.

The dropsy / weakness can also be caused by over treating with drugs that have to be metabolized via liver / kidney so I think we should rather give her a break than treating all the time.

If you still want to treat then I recommend treating with Metro and Epsom salts but then letting her rest a bit, bringing the salt level up to 0.3% and hope she recovers. At some stage she needs to be able to survive without drugs otherwise she will die from organ failure."

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CFG, anesthetize is very easy ,if and when. read up and be prepared. you may have to just go have alook what is in there.

also we all know that parasite with follow on infection is very common. if no more parasite are found then only the infection remains.

antibiotic treament normally produces nearly "instant" results if it is working. but also very good can be the general disinfect rinse too. Seems that you have done nearly all of these things with poor results.

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Mikroll could it be that she has something stuck in the mouth and it is totally unrelated to the gill? Could the gill just be a genetic issue?

The Baytril yesterday didn't change anything to the gill - and it just got her dropsying. Maybe the 'dropsy' is just a reaction to it? Because she has such weak kidneys?

Mikroll, how much clove oil would you recommend on a fish about 10cm and thin??? I just need enough to knock her out enough to look in the mouth? I can call the vet but then I will look in the mouth because I have smaller fingers.

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Vet update:

"

Luckily fish don?t starve quickly; they can go for weeks without food (obviously it?s not ideal because of lack of vitamins etc).

I think that the Epsom salt is a good option to make sure there is no constipation but it will probably not help with the swelling of the gills.

I recommend doing a salt bath at 15g/L for 10 minutes and see if that helps with the swelling of the gills. Salt is not so harsh on the internal organs. I know that you are a bit afraid of this but I do it often with koi and normal goldfish and they usually tolerate it very well. Salt baths can be repeated 3 times every other day. If that doesn?t help you can try the sera ectopur that I showed you.

The Metro could also help against bacteria that are certainly sitting on the swollen gills. I?m just not sure if the bacteria are the main problem or if something else is causing the problem with the mouth and then the gills and the bacteria are only secondary."

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Mikroll could it be that she has something stuck in the mouth and it is totally unrelated to the gill? Could the gill just be a genetic issue?

The Baytril yesterday didn't change anything to the gill - and it just got her dropsying. Maybe the 'dropsy' is just a reaction to it? Because she has such weak kidneys?

Mikroll, how much clove oil would you recommend on a fish about 10cm and thin??? I just need enough to knock her out enough to look in the mouth? I can call the vet but then I will look in the mouth because I have smaller fingers.

Could be many things including something stuck I would think. If you check around at some thread posts inkoko maybe you can see what blocked mouth acts like (open??). Yours is closed is the puzzel!. I do not have much experience with blocked mouths.

baytril is well tested and proven antibiotic , but we know all can be stressing. there are other ways to rinse gills but i think problem is lack of knowledge as to what is actual cause of distress?

clove oil ( fromthe herbal shop) procedure is well documented (if you can not find i can get you a link). dose is by the drops / liter of water in bowl . one drop/4liter

fish should knock out with in 5 minutes in bowl, remove fish ..perform work, return fish to clean water and hold in water flow until it revives in less than 10 minutes.

but does you fish squirm too much whenyou touch mouth? can you touch without anethize?

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She does squirm and her slime isn't in very good shape so I want to avoid harming it any more.

It is a tough call. Either they are related or they are not. If I put her through the stress of the anesthesia and I don't find anything in the mouth? Then again, doing the anesthesia can also allow me to take a scrape of the gill right? which could answer more questions?

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"

salt bath at 15g/L for 10 minutes "

I perform salt dips and baths and when using 15gram/liter must watch fish very closely for faint and roll over and have never taken beyond 5 minute limit. 10 minute maybe fine for healthy pond koi and goldfish but much watch very very close for a fancy that is sick I think.

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I won't be doing the salt. Both because she is so weak and small and because she already seems sensitive to salt. No way I do that. Also cannot compare a 1meter fat koi to a 10cm tiny goldfish. :(

got some new pics and a film of her

made a stunning discovery! the dropsy is only one ONE side! Just on the side of the swollen gill!!! What in the world?!?!?!

more pics + film coming

DSCN3766.jpg

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oh boy. so the vet called and he wants to come over - knock her out and check the gill and the mouth.

Mikroll, do you have a link of the clove oil just so I check the amount before he uses a Koi amount on her!

another pic

DSCN3763.jpg

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page 32 of your fancy goldfish book by Doc johnson.... 5 drops/ gallon but i use 1 drop / liter and like it better.

here is one of many locations online to how to do it too

http://thegab.org/Illness-and-Treatment/how-to-sedate-a-fish-with-finquel-or-clove-oil.html

also are other products which produce same results. MS22, sandoz and finquel

edit..isnot the size of fish but the % of oil/liter that is the calulation for dose

Edited by mikroll
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okey thanx Mikroll!

Wish for the best!

OK in Italian is said " in bocca lupo" means into the mouth of the wolf and you will answer CREPA IL LUPO. wich means ofcourse death to the wolf or other terrible things to him. so that is your wish

please go IN BOCCA LUPO!

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I hope so! I am so stressed I have terrible stomach cramps! :krazy:

He will also try and feed her. We will see. As long as we can get the mouth working at least!

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Yup she will be just fine with the anesthesia. Make sure you have another bowl or container of water like Mikroll said with a bubbler and just run her over the bubbles and she'll be like ":o What happened?" And go back to normal.

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