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Dr.house's Mouth Is Locked Shut!


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Possibly:

Lethargy, Clamped fins - occasionally. Today I caught her a few times on the floor - but with the dorsal up, or semi up. Could also be because she cannot breath well - so gets tired more easily. She also sometimes swims with her side turned a bit like her tail is pulling her down on one side.

As far as the gills I cannot see inside very clear - but they look a dark pink.

Bad water meaning ammonia?

How would you fix a bacterial thing?

She has been through terrible conditions but that was a year ago...

For sure it isn't oxygen - I can see the little bubbles all over the tank.

For now is it okay if I just add salt? And feed her some more blood worms?

As far as the scrape - besides taking a scale away!!!!!!! :( It is clear from what I can see. Nothing moving in various magnification levels. (don't ask me for specifics!) It took me ages and LOTS of frustration to zoom correctly in - but I don't see anything wrong. Especially since flukes are suppose to be pretty huge already on 40magnification level.

As for the KoiVet here, he seems to be a slight incompetent. From what I have heard from actual koi experts and breeders, he has no idea what he is doing :(

Oh and tomorrow is Sunday - so EVERYTHING will be closed here.

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Good for you about doing the scape. :) That takes courage. Her scale will grow back I'm sure.

I would add the salt and wait to see if it all clears up. I'm sure when she rest it is because of her mouth being shut. I've read that if she injured inside her mouth it might take quite a while to heal.

Feed her whatever she can eat. I believe it was Fang who suggested gel food? Can she eat that if you cut it very small? That might be more nourishing than just blood worms.

If it is bacterial than you might need meds but I would rather wait on Imo's opinion for the meds if absolutely necessary.

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Okey doke! I made gel food tonight. Will test it tomorrow!

My friend answered,

"I think it is a abnormality that is getting worse by time. I heard it more often with these kind of fish. There is nothing to do about that. The most importend thing is to let the fish eat. Maybe liquid food with a syringe. It is not a fluke infection. Don't use to many medication on the fish.That will have negative effects on them later. Just when your sure they have a serious parasite infection."

:)

I wish he lived closer! We were so busy with the darn tank the other day that I forgot to show him House's gill!

I now just double checked with him if it could be a bacterial thing. So far I am not doing anything except more frequent water changes.

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Awww poor Dr. House! Gel food is a good idea, maybe feeding her in a breeder net so she can't miss the food that easily. It surely also is a great idea to add lots of your regular goldfish food into the gel food. Soak it really good until it gets mushy.

I really hope it is not going to be permanent. Poor girls, both of you!

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Thanx Shell :)

I am still not too sure about the gill. I think my friend was talking mostly about the mouth. I asked him specifically about the gill now.

I wish Imo could stop by :(

Thanx Fang. If the gel works I will make different varieties for her. It sucks it is always her who has problems. I have had her a year and a half now and she is the fish I am most attached to. :(

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Update:

she seems slightly more weak today. She has 0.1% salt tho to help her. And she also ate a few blood worms. I will try and find a way to make the gal food so tiny - could be challenging.

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This SUCKS. I make my gel food quite liquid (I wasn't sure if it would ever become firm) but that way it made my fish less floaty. The gel food dissolves quite quickly into teeny bits. You could feed her in a breeder box or net to prevent the gel food crumbs to go all over the tank and into the filter. Does the goldfish food you use come in flake form too? That would be perfect to be mixed in.

That at least provides good nutrition for now, I still hope though that the stuck mouth issue gets resolved though.

She has really big eyes, right? I wonder if the big buggy eyes have to do with it too. With Blacky it seems as if her narrow mouth is caused by her big eyes, like they are squishing her face a bit. Her open mouth looks like when you squeeze the corners of your mouth toward the middle and make yourself a birdie beak. With her it really looks like the eyes are part of the problem, as it wasn't as bad when she was little. The more Blacky's eyes grow (and she has huge buggy eyes) the more it squishes her mouth. I wonder if this could also cause Dr. House's jaw to dislocate or whatever happened to it.

Just a thought.

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Yea I think the eyes have something to do. SHe has HUGE ones compared to her body. My friend thinks the mouth is a genetic thing tho.

I am more worried about the gill now tho. I would like to know for sure that it isn't something I should worry about :(

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worrying update: she is spending 99% of the time on the floor - dorsal semi down.

I did turn off the lights etc in case she needed to rest. hopefully this is her way of recovering?

Anyone have any idea about the gill?

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This happened to my betta once. THe gill popping out like that. He was all while so I could see through it and noticed that it was a very very dark color, like purple (something that wouldn't be seen on a black fish). I never looked into what it was, and he was acting and eating fine, but died about a week later. Not trying to make you feel doomed about Dr. House, but what if the gill is a dark color and you just can't see it? Not to sure if that helps at all, or could trigger someone elses thought process on what could be wrong with poor Dr. House! I hope he gets better soon.

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:/ Well that is good news, but I am at a loss.... *sigh* I wish I could help...

EDIT: I wonder if there was some sort of trauma that fused his mouth shut, which caused him to weaken and be susceptible to other diseases. I may have missed it but were you able to open his mouth again? Right now he is only bottom sitting with his fin down and the gill popping out?

Edited by Auryn
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okey I found something. the normal gill is nice and red and the 'filaments' are all red and symmetrical etc. Looks like healthy gills.

BUT I can see a white spot in the swollen gill! Okey so now I know it isn't a genetic thing. I think it is time to start treating for a bacterial thing. I am pretty sure the white thing is not good.

Do I move her in a hospital tank? Will the Jungle AntiBACTERIAL work for this? I also have maracyn 1 and 2. Please help anyone who has any idea how Bacterial Gill Disease is treated. Should I also treat for flukes again?

Urkel is doing fine.

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Ex koi breeder here. One of my fish was a bacterial gill infection survivor. I'll try to contribute to the best of my ability :)

First, are you sure its BGD? If so, reading here for a start may be helpful. If you can get photos, even better. Does the gill look mushy or unhealthy like hamburger meat? Any white streaks or spots?

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thanx Amber.

The one non swollen gill looks normal to my eyes (Dr.House is about 10cm or less - so I am looking the best I can). THe one that is swollen open has a white 'spot' or 'shiny mark' on the upper part of the gill. Does this sound like BGD???

She is just bottom sitting now :(

What I wonder is that it says it comes from bad water quality or over crowding. Both which isn't my case. Unless Dr.House has resistant flukes who caused this?

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Remember, BGD (if that is what we are dealing with) will cause permanent damage to the gill even after it is cured as it causes the gill filaments to 'clump' and become compromised. In larger fish like koi, typically this can be managed by aerating the water really well. In smaller fish like goldfish, I have no experience, but I assume similar.

First things first, aeration is key. She's going to need oxygen rich water to get enough into her system with one gill compromised.

In koi, treatment was a flow through treatment of Chloramine-T for 60 minutes at 8.0 parts per million. This treatment was near 100% effective if caught early enough to avoid mass damage, and is what I used. I'm unsure if such a treatment could be applied to goldfish, however the alternate treatment of antibiotic food can certainly be applied to goldfish. BGDX could also be used if you can get your hands on it. Upping salt to .2% is also pretty standard when treating koi for this. I'm in the process of contacting some koi keepers for you to get a better idea on how to apply such treatments to goldfish.

However, salt to .2% will assist, as will antibiotic food to begin with. Thats all I'm willing to safely recommend until I can get confirmation from another person with experience here.

I am willing to bet that the pressure from abnormally large eyes combined with the pressure of the gill has caused the moth problems.

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Thanx Amber! I do think the gill is to blame for the mouth problems.

I will up the salt for now. I just tested all the parameters and they are fine. I am sterilizing a hospital tank - it is better I move her out right?

As for medicated food I only have Jungle AntiBacterial. Is this alright?

Okey re-looked at the gill. There are 2 grains of salt looking things on it (white pebbles). It doesn't look 'rotten'.

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The following post is assuming we are dealing with BGD. White/grey bits in the gills and 'mushy' or unhealthy looking and swollen gills are a symptom, so I'm comfortable recommending the following if you can confirm (or highly suspect) BGD.

On your previous post- Fluke infection may have caused this by giving the bacteria an opening. However as you have done a scrape, I find that unlikely. Sometimes despite our best of care, these things still manage to happen. Prazi is a gentle medication anyway, and if you suspect flukes it may be something to consider, as BGD with an underlying cause is difficult to treat unless the cause is removed.

I'm on the phone with Celeste and Yuki, two fellow koi breeders I used to work with (we shared a lot of our fish to and worked together a lot) to compare info for treatment. We all think a Chloramine-T treatment is the best course of action. If you cannot do a Chloramine-T flow through,(which would be difficult to do in a tank at best.) We think getting an antibacterial into the water asap would be the next best course of action. Interpet's Anti Internal Bacteria No.9 is the one we recommend for BGD in carp species. Salt and antibiotics will also assist in this situation. Considering its a bacterial infection, if your medicated food is antibacterial and that's all you have available, that will do.

In short we think the best course of action, and one unlikely to cause harm is

-Moving to a QT tank to make treatment easier, and decrease the risk of the disease spreading

-Salt to .2% or .3%

-Getting either a Chloramine-T flow through happening (best option), or an antibacterial treatment. If you cannot get the recommended one, (Anti Internal Bacteria No.9 which covers the most common BDG bacterias best) try to get one geared to BGD treatment.

-Getting a course of antibiotic food into the fish. I know this may be hard with her mouth all funny D:

Keep us posted.

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On a side note, although I'm suspecting BDG from swollen gills and white marks, do the 'dots' look like there In the gills ie: fleck, or ON the gills. If so, Ichthyophthirius multifiliis (aka Ich) can manifest in the gills, but I've never heard of it happening without the fish being obviously infested or it causing the gills to swell.

Edit: Just trying to cover all my bases here :)

Edited by Amber
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okey. I just compared her gill to one of my large ryukin's - so I can clearly (and on a larger scale) compare it to a healthy one. Her gills are exactly like my ryukins - except the 2 white spots. Spots look most like teenage acne - not mushy tho - more crystalized like - hard. What do you think?

I am making the salt now for the tank - once the hospital tank is ready I will also put 0.2 salt in it and move her over. lots of oxygen. I will start her on the antibiotic food for now.

what is a Chloramine-T flow through???

following your last post - indeed, ich is similar to these spots.

Idea: I move her. raise to 0.3% and a little higher temp. check if spots increase or decrease. Start medicated food anyways if I can get it in her. Will wait for water meds.

Tomorrow is monday and I will try to get a good friend of mine who has had goldfish for 20 years to come check her out. He is much more aware of funky diseases than me.

Edit - spots are indeed ON the gills. Like raised bumps on the red gill filaments. there are 2. same size.

Edit 2 - ich would certainly explain why she has the sudden fin twitches...

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hi CFG,

? about what you see on gill of injured fish? Is the whit spot a small ball shape 1 to 1.5 mm in size ?

? fish has mouth problem too?

are there any other area on skin of fish where there is a small swelling 1-1.5 mm?

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