Help For Dorothy Part Ii

[Rachelle K.]

Hi,

I posted the message below as a continuation to my previous postings under "Help for Dorothy" but that was 6 days ago and I haven't received a response so thought I would post it here. Water parameters are still exactly the same (I've been checking them daily). The only thing that has changed is I purchased some Marcyn 2 and gave her dose #3 this evening. I don't have a hospital tank except for a 5 gallon without a filter. So she is in that right now but I'm wondering if I should move her back to my large tank with the other ryukin. I just purchased a bubble wand for that tank and the healthy fish is so much more active now and really seems to love the added oxygen....of course! Update on Dorothy. She is still doing a lot of bottom sitting but seems to be maybe slightly more active. I can't really tell if the red streaks on her tail have improved or not. I'm not sure when I should start to see improvement. She still seems very lethargic. I don't have her in the main tank because the male fish really seems to be picking on her....bumping into the side of her like he was doing before when he was trying to get her to release her eggs. It seems to wear her out so quickly so i thought it better to give her a place to rest in quiet and since she isn't swimming really, I didn't think the small tank size would be bad for now as long as I keep my parameters good.

Anyway, here is my original message. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Please help! Dorothy is not doing well, again! I have been doing water changes 2-3 x a week and my parameters have been perfect.

Today:

pH 7.6

Ammonia: 0 ppm

Nitrite: 0 ppm

Nitrate:10 ppm

KH: 120 ppm

GH: 75 ppm

Chlorine: 0 ppm

So...just a refresher on Dorothy. She was having issues...doing a lot of bottom sitting although eating fine. I treated her with a full course of PraziPro over a one month period...added the carbon back in the filter. Then a few weeks ago, Dorothy released a bunch of eggs and for about a week she seemed to be "back to normal"...swimming fine, not lethargic anymore. Now, over the past 2 days, she is back to a lot of bottom sitting. She is really lethargic. She seems to attempt to swim straight up (from the bottom) and barely makes it to the surface before she sinks back down fairly quickly. Now today, she sinks down and kind of spirals....can't really keep herself upright and seems to be out of sorts with not being able to swim accurately enough to get her food (which is Hikari gold pellets which I presoak for 10 minutes). She will sometimes sink back down and kind of fall over to her side. I do notice some red vein-like streaks in her tail that weren't there before....I know it's not ammonia poisoning as I have kept my parameters perfect since I inquired the first time...in October I think. To me, she looks like she might die but I don't want her to suffer. Also, when she is doing the bottom sitting, her dorsal fin is retracted back...not upright like it usually is. (

Any suggestions? Do you think it could be hemorrhagic septicemia that I should treat with Marcyn or Marcyn 2? I only have a 5 gallon tank to quarantine Dorothy to but I think I am going to do that right now. I don't have a filter for that tank but I will just do daily water changes to keep the parameters good.

Rachelle

Edited December 6, 2010 by Rachelle K.

[pss_gold]

i'm sorry that no one has responded to either of your posts. At the risk of being attacked on this forum again, I'll see if I can help you.

Anyway, is she still eating? Have you added salt to the water? She may just be that tired from laying the eggs though I haven't had a fish lay eggs. Mine are all babies. Salt should replace electrolytes and if you feed her a little more than usual might help her get her strength back faster. Is this her first batch of eggs?

Here's a post where someone cured their fish of this: My link

Symptoms of it are supposed to be red blotches or lesions.

From: http://www.fishmartinc.com/hc-domgolddisease.htm

Bacterial Hemorrhagic Septicemia:

Goldfish with bacterial hemorrhagic septicemia are most likely the victims of a type of aeromonas bacteria. The primary symptom is a red ulcer or lesion which can quickly deteriorate through layers of skin, tissue, and muscle.

Most of the broad-spectrum antibiotics can be useful in treating this disease; nalidixic acid also seems to work against this bacteria.

Do you have any pictures?

[Cynders]

If she just dropped eggs she could be eggbound and might need help, have you fed her any peas? Any red area in her vent.

[Rachelle K.]

Yuko,

Thank you for your help. You mentioned being attacked and I just wanted to make sure I didn't say anything that made you feel that way. I read back through my posts and I don't think so but wanted to double check. )

Dorothy is still eating....and still bottom sitting. She just keeps doing this weird thing of swimming straight upward and then sinking rapidly to the bottom but not always straight...somtimes spinning. She also seems to be occassionally laying on one side but not all the way just partially. I am using typical amount of aquarium salt with every water change: 1/2 rounded teaspoon per gallon. Should I add more than this into the tank? I have heard some people talk about salt baths (0.1% then 0.2%, etc). I will try feeding her a little extra. Last night I put 8 pre-soaked pellets in the tank for both ryukins but the smaller male ate every one of them. My sick ryukin doesn't seem to have very good aim right now or be able to swim straight. I then held the smaller ryukin with a fish net and put 4 pellets in the tank and Dorothy ate all 4 of them. I was putting 15 pellets in the tank every night but the fish were having some constipation issues so I broke up the feedins to twice a day, 6-8 pellets and then a variety of other things like peas and lettuce during the week.

This was Dorothy's first batch of eggs. She definitely doesn't have any red spots or lesions on her....just the red vein looking streaks down her fins. So, I will finish out the course of Marcyn 2 so I create any issues with resistent bacteria. I will take a picture and get it loaded tonight. She is still enough that I should be able to get a pretty decent shot of her. One other thing I forgot to mention is that she seems to be blinking or rolling her eyes up into her head. I know that sounds funny but it's kind of like slow motion blinking but she only does it occassionally. Is this to moisturize her eyes or something? LOL....

Thanks again for your help. I just don't want her to suffer and don't know at what point euthanizing her with the clove oil is appropriate. My feeling is that as long as she is eating and pooping, I will give her some more time.

Rachelle

[Cynders]

That's the wrong dosage for salt, you'll want 1 rounded teaspoon per gallon. These are not salt baths just regular salting for disease. 1 teaspoon per gallon is 0.1% I would keep it at this level for now.

Sometimes they're just looking around when they do that. How often do you change your water? I would try fasting her and feeding her a pea since it sounds like swim bladder related. Does it look like she's having squiggly poos at all? Pictures will definitely help and you're doing the right thing

[Rachelle K.]

Oh okay! Thank you, Haruka. I just went with the direction on the back of the API aquarium salt carton. Is 1/2 tsp. per gallon okay when the fish are healthy? Should I now add an additional 1/2 tsp. per gallon to equal 1 tsp. total per gallon for disease treatment?

I do water changes once a week, 65-80%. Since I have them in a smaller tank, I check all of my parameters every day and change out more water as needed. But since my filter got established, it seems like it is keeping up just fine with doing weekly water changes.

I asked about swim bladder problems initially (in October) but someone said bottom sitting wasn't swim bladder....or are you talking about the swimming straight up and then sinking back down while sometimes spiraling? I'll give both of them peas this evening and see if I can clear up any constipation issues that may be causing swim bladder problems.

About the poo: Both fish have had unusual poo off and on for a few months. Sometimes it's white, thin, and stringy. Other times it is well formed, short, and the color of their food. I have noticed over the past week somewhat "squiggly" poo but not everyday. It seems to come and go.

Rachelle

P.S. I am going to take a pic right now and try and get it posted on here. )

[Cynders]

Never add salt unless a fish is sick. This stresses them out and can potentially harm your cycle. It can also create super bugs.

Good going with the water changes

Bottom sitting is usually something that lets you know a fish isn't feeling too hot, but sinking and floating can be a sign of swim bladder issues. Have they ever been treated for parasites?

How often do you notice the stringy poo? It can be a sign of stress or internal parasites. Squiggly poo means your fish is re-absorbing eggs into her system.

[pss_gold]

I think white squiggly poo means reabsorbing eggs. I saw that on big mama when I was taking care of her and thought it was bacteria. (reminds me i need to tell my friend....)

My 2ish year old female common does the swimming slightly off and eye rolling. Almost looks like she's blinking. She tends to do that before I feed her then after she's back to normal so feeding peas also fixed her. She's always swimming around though, no bottom sitting. My tele also used to do it but since she's gotten a little stronger, she stopped.

Maybe they do it because they have extra slime over their eyes? Rolling them would be the only way to clear it since they don't have eyelids like us.

[Rachelle K.]

Geesh, I learn something new everyday! I have always read and been told to add aquarium salt with each water change......actually on this forum too. So now I'm really confused because I have heard yes, add it with every water change and no, don't add it.

Per Lupins suggestion last month, I treated my fish with a full one month course of PraziPro which is for parasites, isn't it? I think I notice the stringy poo at least a few times a week. Actually, I just fed my fish and noticed some really thin (smaller in diameter than dental floss) white stringy poo around a few of the plants. I have seem my smaller male ryuking pooping fine but haven't seen the sick ryukin poop normally for a day or two. I will try some peas. That cleared up her swim bladder issues before.

Hmm...well I thought I noticed squiggly poo on the male fish as well, but I guess it's not what I thought it was since he does not have eggs to reabsorb.

With the feeding tonight, the sick ryukin really had trouble aiming right to get the blood worms and brine shrimp. The smaller male fish ate it all! So then I did the same thing as last night and held the smaller male in a net and dropped some food. I left the ryukin in the net until the sick ryukin was finally able to get to the food. It took her 4 or 5 passes back and forth in the tank to get just to the right spot to eat the food. I just want her to get better!

Rachelle

[Rachelle K.]

I am having trouble uploading the 2 pictures of my fish and the video I took of her activity. How do I attach it to a message?

Rachelle

[number20121]

Upload the photos and video on photobucket.com and from there link them to your post

[Rachelle K.]

Okay, here are the photos and video of Dorothy. She seems to be trying to swim upward a little bit more today but still not much. I think the red streaks on her fins are fading. I have two more days of Marcyn 2 so I'll wait and see.

Dorothy: Sick Ryukin

Rachelle

[koko]

What Im afraid of hun is sometimes, female goldfish when trying to get rid of eggs is they can hurt there swim bladder, if theses meds dont work im wondering if she did this....

Have you ever feed he MetroMeds or Medigold?

Also great information, on this page just thought if you read maybe you might see something....

http://www.goldfishconnection.com/articles/details.php?articleId=145&parentId=12

[Rachelle K.]

Thanks for the link, Koko. Well, I can rule out #1 (water quality) as I have been on top of making sure the water quality is perfect since October when I first came on this forum and realized after purchasing API drops, my water quality was bad. I'm wondering the bad water quality a few months ago (which I believe was caused from having to buy a new filter and having an uncycled tank) could have done permanent damage.

About the parasites, I did treat her with a full month of PraziPro, as recommended by Lupin but I haven't seen any improvement in her condition.

I will check the water current. Could the bubble wand be creating too strong of a current for her and wearing her out? The smaller ryukin swims just fine with it and I have it against the back of the tank so I'm not sure if this is an issue or not.

The smaller male ryukin does seem much more aggressive. But it seems to be correlated with getting the female to release eggs since the male is mainly bumping into the side of her and chasing her while perhaps trying to stimulate her vent or something. LOL...He was doing a lot of mouthing at the female's vent so I'm guessing it had something else to do with trying to get her to release her eggs.

The male was chasing her quite a bit but once I took her out of the main tank for a few days and put her back in, he seems to be leaving her alone for the most part. Should I rehome the smaller male and then get another female once I have a larger tank? I'm not sure this would "cure" the female but I just want her to get better. I have considered euthanizing her with clove oil but she is still eating so I'm not sure that is the right thing to do for her. Thoughts?

[Rachelle K.]

Oh....I forgot to add that I have not ever fed metromeds or medigold. Are these just medicated food? Would it hurt of the healthy fish to eat it too?

[koko]

There both Medicated food. Im thinking it might be a good idea to give her a round of Medigold... She could be having a bacterial infection, the MM2 will help on the outside but the Medigold will help in the inside.

i wouldnt feed it to the healthy fish, so you might need to feed her alone

[Rachelle K.]

Thanks, Koko. I will go pick some up and see if it helps. I start back to school the first week of January and should have enough funding to get a larger tank/stand. I found a 55 gallon with stand on Craigslist for $75.....so I'm sure I can find something similar a month from now.

I think I will do what I've been doing in terms of holding the smaller ryukin in the net submerged in the water of course, so that my sick ryukin can get to the medicated food. This is what I've had to do the past few days since the smaller ryukin is taking advantage of the sick ryukin not being able to get to the food quick enough and is eating all of it!

[koko]

That food hun you can only find on goldfish connection hun....

[Rachelle K.]

Okay, so I just ordered the food at Goldfish Connection. I hope it comes quickly. Thanks for the help and until I receive the Medigold, I will continue with large water changes and finish up the Marcyn 2.

Thanks again,

Rachelle

[koko]

Keep us posted hun

[Rachelle K.]

So, the medigold was shipped today so hopefully I will have that soon. As I was observing Dorothy today I noticed that her underside is starting to get red....I think likely irritation from all the bottom sitting and scraping along the rocks. I'm not sure if I should take the rocks along with crushed coral out of the tank since that is what has held my pH at a perfect 7.6 for a few months now (it was between 6.2-6.6 before)...or I read somewhere something about a floater basket. Would this be best until she is better? I mean, I know ideally a 10 gallon hospital tank with set up filtration and aeration would be best...but I kind of have to work with what I have and am wondering what the best option would be.

Thanks!

Rachelle

[Helen]

hi rachelle,

if she's not receiving any grief from the other fish, i recommend a floater basket for feeding the medicated food only. and if it has proper water flow, to keep her from hurting her belly more, perhaps in there a few days at a time until she gets better?

what i use is a colander lol.. a nice cheap plastic colander that i pierce a veggie clip through and suction it to the top of the tank. here's a recent pic:

hope this helps

[Rachelle K.]

Thanks, stakos. Actually the male is giving the female (who is the sick ryukin) quite a lot of grief. When I first put her back in the tank, he seems to leave her alone. Now he's back to chasing her and butting his head into the side of her until she swims. So she ends up hitting the rocks at the bottom quite a lot. If the male wasn't in the tank, the female would just sit at the bottom except for feeding or occassionally moving. If she is impacted with egss, will moving her for a few days do any harm?

Thanks,

Rachelle

[amynmitchell]

The colandar is a great solution, because it keeps her in the main tank to help stimulate her to release her eggs, but keeps her out of harms way. Keeping her calm and quiet and this point would help quite a bit.

[Rachelle K.]

Thank you, Amy. In response to your other reply to my other posting (Sick Ryukin), Yes, I had already started medicating the main tank with the Marcyn 2 so I finished it out. Last dose was a couple days ago. My sick ryukin isn't showing any improvement at all. The male is back to leaving her alone the past day so I haven't put her into a colandar yet. She is still sitting on the bottom. I received the merigold food today so I put her in the net to feed the medicated food to her. She ate all 6 pellets this morning. I am going to give her another 6 right now. She still has the red streaking on her fins....my parameters are still great...just checked them this morning. But now, I have noticed some fraying on one of her fins and what looks like one or two opaque looking spots on one of her fins. Not sure if this is fin rot. It just seems to be one thing after another. The Prazipro was given all of last month and now she has also had a week and a half of Marcyn 2 (which I finished up a few days ago). With the medicated food, I'm not sure what else to do or how much time to give her to get better. ( I don't want her to suffer but she is still eating. If she stops eating, I will likely euthanize using clove oil......

Rachelle

The colandar is a great solution, because it keeps her in the main tank to help stimulate her to release her eggs, but keeps her out of harms way. Keeping her calm and quiet and this point would help quite a bit.