Green Patches On Sick Fish

[spillie]

Scooter, ythe flippy/floaty fish who was pineconing, is in the QT on metromeds, in espom, and being held under water in a salad spinner basket as he was getting red sores from bis belly being in the air. Temp is 78-80 degrees. And there is a towel over the tank, so it is dark. There is a cycled filter HOB in there and an airstone. He is more active and seems to be almost over the pineconing, but still upside down. I noticed yesterday that he has some little patches of what looks to be dark brownish green developing on his scales on his sides near his belly. It is not fuzzy or raised--it looks rather like the way that brown algae does on glass. Flat. Like a thin later of mold or something, just on few small spots, He has a bit more of it today. Is this because of the high temp or ...? I have never seen anything like this on any of my fish before. I have to run to work, but just did a quick ammonia/nitrite test and both are zero, so the cycle in the HOB seems to be holding. I have been changing 50% of the water daily in any case. He is almost over the pineconing, just a wee trace left. Should I replace the epsom water with aquarium salt water when I am home tonight? What is this, do you think?

[Captain Findus Goldfish]

I wonder if stuff is growing on him since he doesn't move much? maybe it is time to switch epson for reg salt?

[spillie]

I just did a 100% water change and am substituting 1 teasp/gallon aq. salt for epsom as he only has a slight bit of pineconing left--and now I am worried about these blackish spots that seem to spreading. Here are pics:

http://i409.photobuc...ie/IMG_3326.jpg

http://i409.photobuc...ie/IMG_3327.jpg

It looks like black mold. He has been in 78-80 water in the 10g QT, with a cycled filter and 50% changed daily. Zero ammonia, zero nitrites--cycle's holding. There is an HOB dropping water into the tank and an airstone. He is more active (fins active), but still flipped/not moving around. I think he would be able to swim in the big tank when not resting (as was the case before he pineconed). Now floats and he is in a salad spinner basket (which has holes, of course, for water flow) to keep him submerged as he was starting to get red where his belly was exposed to air.

Poo has looked normal, but just now noticed white stringy poo in process. He is on the metromeds now. 4 pieces twice a day. {He is relatively big--maybe his body without fins is about 3.6 inches or so, and deep bodied.}

What on earth is this??? Should I reduce the water temp in addition to salt? What percent salt should I go to? Or is that the wrong course of action altogther?

edit: also just noticed he looks like he has fin rot on one of his pelvic fins--it is now shorter than the other and white on the ends.

[Captain Findus Goldfish]

I would leave the temp - it is better for his digestion and metabolism.

I would start with 0.1% salt and see how it goes. Are you sure that the spots are not internal? I think the salt will take care of it if it is some opportunistic fungus. If it doesn't go you can always raise it. I will check what else it could be.

Are you feeding medicated food I forgot?

[spillie]

I would leave the temp - it is better for his digestion and metabolism.

I would start with 0.1% salt and see how it goes. Are you sure that the spots are not internal? I think the salt will take care of it if it is some opportunistic fungus. If it doesn't go you can always raise it. I will check what else it could be.

Are you feeding medicated food I forgot?

Yes he's on metromeds. (metronidazole). It looks like these spots are on the the surface, and now that I also observe some fin rot, truly think the blackish spots might be mold. He is in the salt now and I'm letting him float freely for a bit.

If he recovers from all this, I'll put him back in the big tank and see if he is still able to swim around from time to time and play in the bubbles and rest in the blender jar. He was pretty happy despite his disability. If he can no longer do that, well, I think I will have to make a hard decision. For now, though, want to get him sorted so he can go back to the big tank...as then I will be able to tell really what his life can be like. This whole thing makes me very sad, he is such a dear fish.

[kukana d]

I would look more for this to be a result of keeping a bowl on him-like the itsy space between his body and the bowl is creating a space for fungus or bacteria. Please be aware that I do not know this-it would just be my hunch-we need 1 of the mods for this. I think I would take the bowl off and just use Biobandage on his air-exposed spots. I have had several fish that flipped like that-and I've never had to treat the exposed spots...........Moderator,please

[koko]

I have never seem Mold grown on a fish. Right now i would just do the salt since this fish had some lifting scales.... Ill check to see how your fish is doing but right now just keep what your doing

[Captain Findus Goldfish]

I agree with Susan, she has a really good point. The bowl is probably preventing good circulation of water = stagnant water = bacteria and fungus

It would be great if you could get him to stop floating so he could go back in the main tank.

[spillie]

Thanks, Koko, Federica, and Kukana--I appreciate it! I have removed the salad spinner insert and he is floating freely again. It did have holes all over it, but they were small and maybe not enough water was circulating through, which may have been made worse by the warm water. I'll just keep an eye out for red sores and treat accordingly. He also has one of these darks spots developing on the side of his head It is most bizarre, and I lightly touched a spot with a tissue, but it did not seem to rub off. I have no idea what this is, but it seems that better water movement can only help . He's at 1 teasp. salt/gallon now, and I will up that tonight before I go to bed to 2 teasp/gallon.

The other fish, whose in the diswasher basket in my second QT, is fine, but she is moving about more in there and also holding her self lower in the water with her little fins.

Bad news I am away next week, so I do hope this clears up by Sunday so everyone can go back in the big tank. I really do not want to have to make a decision about their QOL until I can see them back in the big tank, as Scooter, at least, had a little system figured out and was always bubbly and happy, despite his issues. He may no longer be so, but I want to see before I decide whether it's time or not. And of course, I hope he is still happy as he is my absolute honey--it will be so hard if he is not (but I'll do what's best for him).

[amynmitchell]

It almost looks like healing ammonia burn to me? Hmm, I am at a loss here as well.

[spillie]

That thought crossed my mind, too, but the ammonia is and has been zero. Unless it from when they were both in the QT together for a few days last week, but then, they were fasting and then, too, I was changing 50% daily and had the cycled filter on there. Aaaaah--except for one day I did not as I had it on the other tank with the new fish. Maybe from that one day? I did not test after that, just changed the water and put the filter back on. Scooter is more sensitive, When he came from Ken, he had ammonia burns a few days later from the shipping bag. Could be--mystery solved? Or maybe now that he is eating MMs (no longer fasting) the waste ammonia he produced got trapped under the salad spinner.

Wait, that actually makes sense as the pattern is on his belly--and the only time his belly has been submerged is when he was under the salad spinner. No way he would have that from last week as his belly was in the air until the salad spinner came along. How Very Odd. I think you must be right. Thanks, Amy! Better that (though I feel bad I somehow did this despite myself) than some horrible infection or weird body mold.

[Sakura]

Hey Spillie... I had a couple fish who were super pineconed and flippy in their last days, and (my Momo especially) had black markings almost exactly like that show up on his skin in random areas. With him I'm sure it wasn't from being exposed to air, because he never was. I also don't think it was from sitting on the bottom or anything like that because he didn't do that much. It also was definitely not healing ammonia burn. I'm pretty sure with him it was related to whatever killed him; whether it was bacterial, parasitic, or viral. I still don't know. Maybe it's dying/dead tissue?

I'm not saying what your fish have is exactly the same as what mine had. But I do see similarities a little bit. Well... for your sake I hope they don't have what mine had, and that they can still pull through from this.

Edited October 26, 2010 by Sakura

[AMeyers]

I am no expert, but those look like burns. I had a bad Prime experience and my fish had similar markings. It only takes a short time for it to happen.

[spillie]

I am no expert, but those look like burns. I had a bad Prime experience and my fish had similar markings. It only takes a short time for it to happen.

You mean Prime can burn them, too? Yikes. I may have overdosed the tank. I wonder...

[AMeyers]

I am no expert, but those look like burns. I had a bad Prime experience and my fish had similar markings. It only takes a short time for it to happen.

You mean Prime can burn them, too? Yikes. I may have overdosed the tank. I wonder...

No. Prime won't burn them. I was using it when I had meds in my tank that had destroyed the bio filter. Long story, but my ammonia levels shot up.

[kukana d]

I would wait a day or so and see,I also see a little white mushiness in a couple of spots-I still think it's related to the strainer-otherwise they'd be all over,not just on his belly,also..........

[spillie]

Hey Spillie... I had a couple fish who were super pineconed and flippy in their last days, and (my Momo especially) had black markings almost exactly like that show up on his skin in random areas. With him I'm sure it wasn't from being exposed to air, because he never was. I also don't think it was from sitting on the bottom or anything like that because he didn't do that much. It also was definitely not healing ammonia burn. I'm pretty sure with him it was related to whatever killed him; whether it was bacterial, parasitic, or viral. I still don't know. Maybe it's dying/dead tissue?

I'm not saying what your fish have is exactly the same as what mine had. But I do see similarities a little bit. Well... for your sake I hope they don't have what mine had, and that they can still pull through from this.

Hi Sakura--Thanks for letting me know Momo had the same signs. Yes, that is my secret fear. That it is something going on internally--I have never seen anything like this before. I'd rather it be ammonia burn, or prime burn .. Scooter is more active and no longer pineconing, which is good, but I know that this doesn't mean I won't wake up tomorrow and find that he is gone. With Hugo, his ulcer was clearly healing and that's when he died. It could be a consequence of the pineconing. It's hard not to know what it is, as I do not know what I can do (if anything). For now, he is on metromeds and in .1% salt. I am debating raising to .2%--planned to--but am a bit worried it will be too much for him. It is better to be prepared and to realize this may be another sign that he in on the downward slide. To be honest, I have been very unsure whether he has a chanceof making it, ever since he pineconed or, if he does, I am afraid I may need to think about his quality of life. I could do it now, but I just can't until I am sure. I know you know... .:5:

[spillie]

I am no expert, but those look like burns. I had a bad Prime experience and my fish had similar markings. It only takes a short time for it to happen.

You mean Prime can burn them, too? Yikes. I may have overdosed the tank. I wonder...

No. Prime won't burn them. I was using it when I had meds in my tank that had destroyed the bio filter. Long story, but my ammonia levels shot up.

Oh, I'm sorry to hear that (but glad to know the prime won't burn them). At the moment, the filter cycle is still working, thank goodness-zero ammonia this AM, but I'll keep testing for sure as I do not want to lose the cycle without realizing it. Thanks for the reminder!

[Sakura]

Hey Spillie... I had a couple fish who were super pineconed and flippy in their last days, and (my Momo especially) had black markings almost exactly like that show up on his skin in random areas. With him I'm sure it wasn't from being exposed to air, because he never was. I also don't think it was from sitting on the bottom or anything like that because he didn't do that much. It also was definitely not healing ammonia burn. I'm pretty sure with him it was related to whatever killed him; whether it was bacterial, parasitic, or viral. I still don't know. Maybe it's dying/dead tissue?

I'm not saying what your fish have is exactly the same as what mine had. But I do see similarities a little bit. Well... for your sake I hope they don't have what mine had, and that they can still pull through from this.

Hi Sakura--Thanks for letting me know Momo had the same signs. Yes, that is my secret fear. That it is something going on internally--I have never seen anything like this before. I'd rather it be ammonia burn, or prime burn .. Scooter is more active and no longer pineconing, which is good, but I know that this doesn't mean I won't wake up tomorrow and find that he is gone. With Hugo, his ulcer was clearly healing and that's when he died. It could be a consequence of the pineconing. It's hard not to know what it is, as I do not know what I can do (if anything). For now, he is on metromeds and in .1% salt. I am debating raising to .2%--planned to--but am a bit worried it will be too much for him. It is better to be prepared and to realize this may be another sign that he in on the downward slide. To be honest, I have been very unsure whether he has a chanceof making it, ever since he pineconed or, if he does, I am afraid I may need to think about his quality of life. I could do it now, but I just can't until I am sure. I know you know... .:5:

Yeah I know what you mean. If/when you do need to make a decision like that you will have my full support. At a certain point euth. becomes the kindest thing. I honestly don't think it looks good for him. I'm so sorry But hey... I could be wrong! I'm just speaking from my personal experience, and I've had a few spots of bad luck, so maybe it will be different for your fish. We can hope at least! I think you're doing all the right things and giving them both the best possible chance. I don't think .2% would be too harsh. But it might be good to raise it slowly. Just go up to .15% at first, and then up to .2% 12 hours later. This will make it less sudden for him.

[spillie]

I would wait a day or so and see,I also see a little white mushiness in a couple of spots-I still think it's related to the strainer-otherwise they'd be all over,not just on his belly,also..........

That would be the best answer, for sure--he is no longer in the strainer and if that solves this problem, I'd be relieved. He has wedged himself between the filter and the corner, and is breathing heavily, as Hugo did before he died. However, he is stil very interested in eating, though I have to help him, amd more active than a few days ago when he was pineconing. I'd say either he will turn the corner in the few days or I will lose him. Do you think I should go to .2% salt? I am worried about stressing him further, but equally worried that not increasing it will not help him.

[spillie]

Hey Spillie... I had a couple fish who were super pineconed and flippy in their last days, and (my Momo especially) had black markings almost exactly like that show up on his skin in random areas. With him I'm sure it wasn't from being exposed to air, because he never was. I also don't think it was from sitting on the bottom or anything like that because he didn't do that much. It also was definitely not healing ammonia burn. I'm pretty sure with him it was related to whatever killed him; whether it was bacterial, parasitic, or viral. I still don't know. Maybe it's dying/dead tissue?

I'm not saying what your fish have is exactly the same as what mine had. But I do see similarities a little bit. Well... for your sake I hope they don't have what mine had, and that they can still pull through from this.

Hi Sakura--Thanks for letting me know Momo had the same signs. Yes, that is my secret fear. That it is something going on internally--I have never seen anything like this before. I'd rather it be ammonia burn, or prime burn .. Scooter is more active and no longer pineconing, which is good, but I know that this doesn't mean I won't wake up tomorrow and find that he is gone. With Hugo, his ulcer was clearly healing and that's when he died. It could be a consequence of the pineconing. It's hard not to know what it is, as I do not know what I can do (if anything). For now, he is on metromeds and in .1% salt. I am debating raising to .2%--planned to--but am a bit worried it will be too much for him. It is better to be prepared and to realize this may be another sign that he in on the downward slide. To be honest, I have been very unsure whether he has a chanceof making it, ever since he pineconed or, if he does, I am afraid I may need to think about his quality of life. I could do it now, but I just can't until I am sure. I know you know... .:5:

Yeah I know what you mean. If/when you do need to make a decision like that you will have my full support. At a certain point euth. becomes the kindest thing. I honestly don't think it looks good for him. I'm so sorry But hey... I could be wrong! I'm just speaking from my personal experience, and I've had a few spots of bad luck, so maybe it will be different for your fish. We can hope at least! I think you're doing all the right things and giving them both the best possible chance. I don't think .2% would be too harsh. But it might be good to raise it slowly. Just go up to .15% at first, and then up to .2% 12 hours later. This will make it less sudden for him.

Thanks so much, Sakura.

[kukana d]

I'm not entirely sure what the salt is supposed to do here? I don't think salt(even) is good to just throw at them-unless there is a specific purpose..........

[amynmitchell]

And if this fish came from Ken, his source keeps them at higher concentrations so a lower concentration probably wouldn't do much. I would keep clean fresh water with perfect params, low stress, a covered tank and hope for the best. I do think that you know when the time comes. In my case it is always when they stop eating. As long as they are eating I am inclined to try and keep them going...fish have a way of declining fast but also recovering in a surprising way.

I think ammonia burn usually takes a week or two after the ammonia is gone to show, so it could be that. However, my QT tank always has .25ppm ammonia when I am salting and I've never had a fish show ammonia burn, so it can be hard to say.

I do thing a plastic strainer can be rough on the body of a fish. A soft breeding net or box is safer.

[spillie]

I'm not entirely sure what the salt is supposed to do here? I don't think salt(even) is good to just throw at them-unless there is a specific purpose..........

Good point, I don't want to overdo in a panic. My thinking was if there was some external damage, a low salt dose would help generate a new slime coat/keep it from getting infected. I think I'll keep it at 1% for now, though. As far as I understand, it is OK to salt with Metromeds--and if I am wrong, someone please let me know!

[spillie]

And if this fish came from Ken, his source keeps them at higher concentrations so a lower concentration probably wouldn't do much. I would keep clean fresh water with perfect params, low stress, a covered tank and hope for the best. I do think that you know when the time comes. In my case it is always when they stop eating. As long as they are eating I am inclined to try and keep them going...fish have a way of declining fast but also recovering in a surprising way.

I think ammonia burn usually takes a week or two after the ammonia is gone to show, so it could be that. However, my QT tank always has .25ppm ammonia when I am salting and I've never had a fish show ammonia burn, so it can be hard to say.

I do thing a plastic strainer can be rough on the body of a fish. A soft breeding net or box is safer.

Yup, he's a Ken fish-he was my first one (and of all of them, the one I loved most from the get go. He is not super pretty, but he is just a happy, happy little fish--if I had not seen him, truly, I doubt I would have taken the plunge into high priced bidding land...).

We'll just have to see how it goes...he is in a covered tank and quiet, and still eating--like you, as long as they want to eat, I feel there is a chance.. the pineconing is pretty much gone, so now it is a matter of seeing what happens next. It could go either way, but I'll give him the chance as long as it seems that he is getting better rather than getting worse. The flippy thing is another problem...(my secret wish is that metromeds would cure that, too, but no sign of that at all--not that I expected it. Just thinking, what if it is parasites that have caused his flppyness? Wishful thinking..)