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Pineconing


spillie

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Scooter and Sophie have been the smaller QT with a Aquaclear HOB since Tuesday in 7" of water or so, both still upside down, and have been fasted, but for a pea each, since then. I just moved them into a warmer, bigger QT with 5 " of water to see if that was better for their floaty issues (idea being maybe they'd stay there) and give them a bit more room When I did this, I observed that Scooter, the one who has spent most of his life upside down, but still pretty happy, is pineconing, Sophie is not. (The water in the small QT was not heated, as my spare heater was on my second QT tank with the new fish from Ken--I just moved those new guys into the big tank so Scooter/Sophie are both in a heated tank now).

They are in about 8 gallons of water (since so shallow) 100% new as of an hour ago. Temp is 72.

My HOB does not reach down that far, so no filtration. Was planning on daily water changes.

I think I better move Scooter back into the small QT with the filter (it can reach there). and I guess I'll have to leave Sophie where she is w/no filter. And pick up another spare heater.

How do I treat pineconing? I have aquarium salt and metromeds on hand. Oh dear, oh dear....

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Um... was the other tank filtered? Maybe she reacted to bad water quality?

I cannot recommend enough that you get some zeolite. I have been using it in my uncycled QT tanks and it is GREAT. (just don't use it with salt) - just take a handful and place it in a stocking, rinse and hang right on top of a bubble wand/stone. This will absorb all the ammonia :) Just keep testing as you will need to know when they need to be replaced. With my jumbo ryukins I replace it every 2 weeks.

I would observe if it goes down by itself with clean water. how pineconed is she?

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Um... was the other tank filtered? Maybe she reacted to bad water quality?

I cannot recommend enough that you get some zeolite. I have been using it in my uncycled QT tanks and it is GREAT. (just don't use it with salt) - just take a handful and place it in a stocking, rinse and hang right on top of a bubble wand/stone. This will absorb all the ammonia :) Just keep testing as you will need to know when they need to be replaced. With my jumbo ryukins I replace it every 2 weeks.

I would observe if it goes down by itself with clean water. how pineconed is she?

Thanks, Fredericka. I will try to get some zeolite. This is so worrisome. I'd say he is medium pineconed. Scales definitely out, but probably not as far as they can go...

The small QT with the two fish was unfiltered for 2 days (I did 50% water changes twice a day) and has been filtered the past two with my cycled HOB. But the water was colder than they are used to as I was short a heater (they were in there to try the shallow water treatment for floatiness, but were not sick and definitely not pineconing). They did not eat at all in the QT but for a pea each on the 3rd day...

I just bought epsom salts and another heater and reset up the small QT. As soon as the water warms, I'll move him over,

Should I start metromeds or wait? I do not want to start antibiotics if not needed as they can weaken the fish. But, I also do not want to wait if early treatment makes a difference. What's best?

Should I wait unti this evening and see if they go down in the warmer, epsom-ed water? How long does it take goldfish to un-pinecone if they are recovering?

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With my experience with the good Dr.House (who had it once full blown and 2times caught in the beginning) - I would put him in the tank and heat it slowly - to like about 26C. Then observe and let him relax a bit. You can add the 1/4 teaspoon of Epson for 10 gal - that is always what I did with House. However, it has been going around the forum that normal salt is also good for dropsy. I just always used Epson.

Then wait a few days. As long as you don't see it getting worse - I wouldn't medicate. If it doesn't get better in like 2-3 days (or if he gets more pineconed), then you can give him the MetroMeds or Jungle AP. :)

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I have one girl getting over dropsy now. The epson salt and jungle AP did the trick but it took a couple days for her to show improvement, and she was only slightly pineconed since I caught it in a very early stage. Good luck :)

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Hmmmm....still undecided if I should start metromeds or not. Scooter has been in the QT with epsom salt and warm water for about 7 hours now, still pineconing, but not getting worse, I guess I'll see how he is in the AM. He had some poo from his pea on Wednesday this afternoon--isn't that way too long? But his poo looked normal, short, green, not stringy.He has had nothing to eat since btw.

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It's always so difficult to decide whether to medicate or not. You don't want to do it if it's not needed, but at the same time you don't want to wait too long either.. Especially with Dropsy.. I think the advice you've been getting is great. The heat and epsom first is worth a shot since he COULD respond to just that. Normally when people say they have a pineconed fish I always recommend ordering metromeds and by the time they arrive they know whether to go ahead and use them or not. You're lucky that you have the right medicated food on hand.

If it were me I would watch closely... Pay attention to the behavior of the fish and eating habits... If you see any signs that the fish is starting to get picky about food, I would start the MetroMeds then. Because they do you no good if the fish is no longer eating. However, if the fish is still eating well and swimming happily, then it can't hurt to hang on a little while and see if just the heat and epsom helps.

Good luck I really hope Scooter gets better...

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Thanks so much, that makes good sense. And thanks for your good wishes, too--Scooter is my sweetest, happiest (despite his upside down handicap) fish and I am so very fond of him. He's precious.

:5:

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How is he? In my experience the dropsy can take like 3 days to go down to normal just with heat and epson. Also watch his poop and behavior. Not getting worse is always a good sign :) Do daily water changes if you can with same temp and pH water, that always helped Dr.House. If you see strange white poop or anything odd then you can medicate :)

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Scooter's pineconing seemed a bit worse last night, so I got scared and went ahead and started with the metromeds. He actually seems a bit more active today--though, in addition to his pineconing, for the past few 5 days (even prior to pineconing) has been 100% flipped and can no longer swim down at all. But at least he is moving his little fins about. Yesterday, I had to keep looking closely to make sure he was still with us...

Just did a 50% water change and will continue. Zero ammonia (I have a cycled filter on his tank), but will continue to do that to be sure his water is as fresh as possible. To keep it temp matched, I had to forgo aging the water to bring the Ph up, but felt it was probably more important to keep the temps close as possible (and hope that they are accustomed to the rising Ph in my tanks as they go through it every week when I change the water). So, he's now in 78 degree clean, clean water with epsom, an airstone, a cycled filter, and on metromeds, and I think that is all that I can do. At his point, he's in the hands of some power greater than myself--but I sure hope he makes it.

Thanks so much for the support, Federica and everyone! I would have no idea what to do if it wasn't for all of you on this forum.

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Today's update: I woke up afraid to look in the QT, but was relieved to see Scooter was still alive and it looks like his pinconing is going down! Not gone, but less. He looks a bit rough, but he is much more active, too. However, he is completely unable to swim down or turn over at all. I gave him 4 pieces of metromeds, which he ate--I had to hold him for the first 2, which I know is stressful for him and he seemed not to want to eat it, but after that, ate the 2nd 2 without me holding him, so he is still interested in eating, Sophie in the other QT is looking perky and she is able to flip over for a short while and swim down to eat the 2 pieces of MM (she's smaller than Scooter, who is pretty bog now) I dropped inside the (from her point of view) wretched dishwater basket that keeps her submerged even when flipped (thanks to a great idea from Rai!). She has sores from being exposed to air, so when I change her water today, I may switch her from epsom to aquarium salt. As far as I can tell, her pineconing, which was just starting, has stopped, but as I have started her on metromeds, too, I'll continue--that's what I should do, right?

So, the news is good, but if neither fish can get turn right sideup for any length of time, I really will have to make a decision. Scooter is the bigger concern as his condition/flippiness is worse than Sophie's. He is my favorite fish, a bright and happy character in spite of his longterm disability, but I am concerned about his QOL. I guess I'll see how things go and if really cannot swim down anymore once/if he recovers and is back in the big tank, and looks miserable, well, then I guess I'll know...

I think in the future, though, if I get another deep bodied oranda, I will get a big one that has already grown into his/her body in the hopes that I will not have this happpen again. Both fish have been fed sparingly for months on homemade gel food, and fasting seems to make no difference--so I am thinking that it is an internal issue with the shape of their bodies that got worse as they grew, as both were fine in the beginning when smaller. If am lucky-super lucky--it will be a bacterial issue that the metromeds clears up--but after all this time, I don't think so, really.

But for now, anyway, things are looking up on the pineconing front, at least. That's good!

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Yes that's fine, I think you are able to leave epsom in for 8 days, and if there is no improvement take it out. It's good for him to be eating the MMs

I really do commend you for thinking about the fish's quality of life. That is so important than keeping a fish suffering just because it will make us sad. However, I do hope they recover if it is indeed bacterial. You really are doing a great job, and even better for thinking about their future. How long has this been going on?

I agree with you, I prefer to buy large adults as well, this way you know what size they are, if they'r stunted, and then if they do get sick, you will be able to treat them more easily. Also with babies you sometimes don't know if they're stunted or not.

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Yes that's fine, I think you are able to leave epsom in for 8 days, and if there is no improvement take it out. It's good for him to be eating the MMs

I really do commend you for thinking about the fish's quality of life. That is so important than keeping a fish suffering just because it will make us sad. However, I do hope they recover if it is indeed bacterial. You really are doing a great job, and even better for thinking about their future. How long has this been going on?

I agree with you, I prefer to buy large adults as well, this way you know what size they are, if they'r stunted, and then if they do get sick, you will be able to treat them more easily. Also with babies you sometimes don't know if they're stunted or not.

I got Scooter in February and he started flipping seriously around, oh, April or so--he got much bigger. He nearly doubled in size to about a 4" body. I was feeding small meals of Hilari Lionhead 2 or 3 times a day then, and it really seemed to help him grow. Sophie, I got in May. She was fine until around July. She has not grown nearly as much (I went to once a day small meals). She's about 2.5" (body). I had her on Hikari Lionhead with the rest of the fish (except Scooter, who as on homemade gel food by then), but then she started flipping periodically. Switched her to gel food, but it has not helped, and she is getting worse. The shallow water cure (she's in less than 6" water now) has not seemed to help... My other oranda, who has a traditional body and is a LFS fish (unlike the others), was about 4.5" when I got her in January and now is about 6". She has no trouble (and she eats much, much more than these other two, because she is a torpedo and gets a lot, but also because I do not monior the same way--I put up a tank divider or hand feed the oher two to be sure that they get little meals due to their condition). My two small ranchus are also quite fine. New tele--who has a humongous round body--seems fine, too, but I am trying to monitor his food, too, as I am now fully suspicious of these deep body type fish and worry...

Despite the flippiness, I must say Scooter has been very happy. He has learned to go in the blender jar where he can rest without flipping and swims out to play in the bubbles. But, we'll see, if he recovers, if he can still do that. If he can no longer swim down to the blender jar or play, then it will be clear that his QOL is pretty much gone. Sophie is not so smart, she's never learned the blender jar trick, so will also have to see how she does.

This is all happening at a bad time, as I have to travel for work for a week coming up, and I do not know if things will be settled enough by then for them to go back in the big tank...I hope so, as asking the petsitter to manage two QTs is a bit much...oh well, just have to take it as it comes.

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Yes that's fine, I think you are able to leave epsom in for 8 days, and if there is no improvement take it out. It's good for him to be eating the MMs

I really do commend you for thinking about the fish's quality of life. That is so important than keeping a fish suffering just because it will make us sad. However, I do hope they recover if it is indeed bacterial. You really are doing a great job, and even better for thinking about their future. How long has this been going on?

I agree with you, I prefer to buy large adults as well, this way you know what size they are, if they'r stunted, and then if they do get sick, you will be able to treat them more easily. Also with babies you sometimes don't know if they're stunted or not.

I got Scooter in February and he started flipping seriously around, oh, April or so--he got much bigger. He nearly doubled in size to about a 4" body. I was feeding small meals of Hilari Lionhead 2 or 3 times a day then, and it really seemed to help him grow. Sophie, I got in May. She was fine until around July. She has not grown nearly as much (I went to once a day small meals). She's about 2.5" (body). I had her on Hikari Lionhead with the rest of the fish (except Scooter, who as on homemade gel food by then), but then she started flipping periodically. Switched her to gel food, but it has not helped, and she is getting worse. The shallow water cure (she's in less than 6" water now) has not seemed to help... My other oranda, who has a traditional body and is a LFS fish (unlike the others), was about 4.5" when I got her in January and now is about 6". She has no trouble (and she eats much, much more than these other two, because she is a torpedo and gets a lot, but also because I do not monitor the same way--I put up a tank divider or hand feed the oher two to be sure that they get little meals due to their condition). My two small ranchus are also quite fine. New tele--who has a humongous round body--seems fine, too, but I am trying to monitor his food, too, as I am now fully suspicious of these deep body type fish and worry...

Despite the flippiness, I must say Scooter has been very happy. He has learned to go in the blender jar where he can rest without flipping and swims out to play in the bubbles. But, we'll see, if he recovers, if he can still do that. If he can no longer swim down to the blender jar or play, then it will be clear that his QOL is pretty much gone. Sophie is not so smart, she's never learned the blender jar trick, so will also have to see how she does.

This is all happening at a bad time, as I have to travel for work for a week coming up, and I do not know if things will be settled enough by then for them to go back in the big tank...I hope so, as asking the petsitter to manage two QTs is a bit much...oh well, just have to take it as it comes.

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