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Need Info On 2 Things :)


Guldklumpen

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Hi All.

I have 2 requests for some info.

Hopefully your gauy can help me :)

1 - We say the goldfish filters need to cycle the tank water at least 10 times

an hour, but why is that?

In our tank the water gets cycled 8 times an hour, but the water looks the same

as the water in my stepmothers tank, and her filter barely filters

the water two times an hour.

She have 0. Ammonia and 0. nitrite like me, so my question is:

What do you get extra for cycling the tank water more times an hour?

2 - Several places i have read, that goldfish secrete an growth inhibiting hormone.

A hormone that stunts their growth so that they stay smaller if the water

conditions or the size of the pond / tank is not optimal.

Is it true? ...and if so, where can i learn more about it?

Thank you for you time.

Regards :)

Guldklumpen / Jesper

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1 - We say the goldfish filters need to cycle the tank water at least 10 times

an hour, but why is that?

In our tank the water gets cycled 8 times an hour, but the water looks the same

as the water in my stepmothers tank, and her filter barely filters

the water two times an hour.

She have 0. Ammonia and 0. nitrite like me, so my question is:

What do you get extra for cycling the tank water more times an hour?

Hi Jesper,

I'll help with this one. Everyone here will recommend at least 10x gph filtration. With goldfish being so large (the ultimate poop machine) they do create excessive waste products, hence the need for the extra filtration. If your filtration system is presently keeping your water parameters in check for your stocking level, then you'll be fine with regular water testing and routine water changes to keep your water safe for your fish. Hope that helps!

Edited by blackteles
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:goodpost:

As for your second question this is true. This is why we also usually do a large water change each week in addition to getting rid of the nitrates in the tank. If you've noticed that Chinese farmers or Japanese farmers, their fish are huge. This is because their ponds or tanks have systems to constantly keep fresh water in the tanks and ponds.

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blackteles -> But what are the benefit you get for 10 x gph vs. 2 x gph if the ammonia, nitrites are 0. in both occations?

It seems like both filters manage the same task, keeping stats at 0. and the water healthy.

Haruka -> Do you know of any proof / documentation on the subject?

Thx so far guys :)

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I believe the hormone is called the GH hormone. The more of it that is in the water the more the fish will be stunted. This is basically the way fish prevent themselves from getting too huge for an environment. For example if you keep a common goldfish in a 3 gallon tank, if it survives it'll probably be about 2-4 inches only even after a couple of years, in comparison to a common goldfish kept in a pond will be significantly larger.

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blackteles -> But what are the benefit you get for 10 x gph vs. 2 x gph if the ammonia, nitrites are 0. in both occations?

It seems like both filters manage the same task, keeping stats at 0. and the water healthy.

Haruka -> Do you know of any proof / documentation on the subject?

Thx so far guys :)

Happy reading

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/GrwLmtChems.htm

I think keeping Nitrate levels low through water changes is more important , but if a reduction of any growth inhibiting substances results from those water changes , all the better.

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This is the benefit for me as I run 20x gph in my 55 gallon tank. I currently have my eight telescopes in it temporarily so it is a must for me to run this much to control any waste toxins and maintain water parameters along with my water change schedule. So in my opinion the 10x rule is to prevent and control any potential future situations with ammonia/nitrites. It's always better to be safe than sorry. Over filtration always takes precedence to eliminate any potential sress/disease threats to your fish. It's peace of mind for me. ;)

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This is the benefit for me as I run 20x gph in my 55 gallon tank. I currently have my eight telescopes in it temporarily so it is a must for me to run this much to control any waste toxins and maintain water parameters along with my water change schedule. So in my opinion the 10x rule is to prevent and control any potential future situations with ammonia/nitrites. It's always better to be safe than sorry. Over filtration always takes precedence to eliminate any potential sress/disease threats to your fish. It's peace of mind for me. ;)

So, you can basically say it for peace of mind?

That is what it feels like for me too, there does not seem to be any chemical or physical reason

for thinking 10 x gph are any better 2 x gph?

As long as you vacuum poop from your tank and your water conditions are within specs, then there should be

no problem?

Garibaldi -> Great link, just what i was looking for...thx :)

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I think that relating to filtration is also greatly depends on what type of filter you have - how much media in can hold, and in relation, how much bacteria is harbors. A small canister pumping 5x filtration might grow more bacteria that a powerful interior filter, therefore keeping the parameters perfect.

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The 10gph rule is very good for beginners, but personally I think with certain filter types it can be decreased (maybe not down to 2...). Does your stepmother also keep goldies or does she have a tropical tank? The 10gph rule ensures that the water is passed over the bacteria quickly and frequently enough for them to process any waste, the less bacteria you have (smaller the amount of filter media) the higher the amount of gph you need as the water has to pass over it more frequently to get the same water to bacteria ratio. This is particularly the case for the smaller internal filters. Canister filters in particular pack a massive amount of filter media for their size and in my opinion it is not unreasonable to decrease the minimum flowrate with these filters, the sheer volume of bacteria growing in them mean that the water will come into contact with more bacteria in one pass than it would in say an internal, so needs fewer passes to remain clean. My canister filter does about 6x gph and I have an internal sitting at about 3-4x, so I'm technically underfiltered but have previously just run the canister (and when I was having problems with the canister, I have run just the internal) and in both cases the fish have been fine and the parameters good, possibly also because I am understocked and have a lot of plants. If your stepmother's tank has a lot of plants this may also explain it, I have left both my filters off for days (by accident!) and still had zero readings because the plants took care of everything. I like to run both filters anyway so if one goes I still have a backup, and they give extra surface agitation and aeration which is particularly important at night in a planted tank like mine. Hopefully this slightly rambling post makes sense! It's primarily based on my own experiences and discussion with some other members rather than proper scientific evidence, but it works for me ;)

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The 10gph rule is very good for beginners, but personally I think with certain filter types it can be decreased (maybe not down to 2...). Does your stepmother also keep goldies or does she have a tropical tank? The 10gph rule ensures that the water is passed over the bacteria quickly and frequently enough for them to process any waste, the less bacteria you have (smaller the amount of filter media) the higher the amount of gph you need as the water has to pass over it more frequently to get the same water to bacteria ratio. This is particularly the case for the smaller internal filters. Canister filters in particular pack a massive amount of filter media for their size and in my opinion it is not unreasonable to decrease the minimum flowrate with these filters, the sheer volume of bacteria growing in them mean that the water will come into contact with more bacteria in one pass than it would in say an internal, so needs fewer passes to remain clean. My canister filter does about 6x gph and I have an internal sitting at about 3-4x, so I'm technically underfiltered but have previously just run the canister (and when I was having problems with the canister, I have run just the internal) and in both cases the fish have been fine and the parameters good, possibly also because I am understocked and have a lot of plants. If your stepmother's tank has a lot of plants this may also explain it, I have left both my filters off for days (by accident!) and still had zero readings because the plants took care of everything. I like to run both filters anyway so if one goes I still have a backup, and they give extra surface agitation and aeration which is particularly important at night in a planted tank like mine. Hopefully this slightly rambling post makes sense! It's primarily based on my own experiences and discussion with some other members rather than proper scientific evidence, but it works for me ;)

Actually she have 4 fantails in a 60 liter tank going on 3+ years now.

Thet are never sick, small but never sick.

So i'm having a hard time convincing her that she should get a bigger tank and filter :)

Federica -> I think you are right.

I Denmark HMF filters are getting more and more popular.

HMF Example 1.

HMF Example 2.

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Fish like to swim! How is that for a reason for a bigger tank:)

Any animal can live in a tiny environment with certain conditions met but is that the best for it?

If you had to stay in your bathroom for your entire life...you could take vitamins and jog in place but.... :testkit:

I am just trying to help you find a good explanation for your mom. ( uh, was it your mom?)

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If you had to stay in your bathroom for your entire life...you could take vitamins and jog in place but....

:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl

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That's it Jesper...if your current setup is running without any issues with your water parameters providing that you're following a routine water change schedule to keep everything in line, then you're fine. And I would definitely try to convince her to invest in a larger tank for the well being of her four fish. Good luck! :)

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I am just trying to help you find a good explanation for your mom. ( uh, was it your mom?)

I wrote stepmother, but i meant mother in law....that must be the meth talking, haha :D

Arguing with the mother in law can be dangerous ;)

Edited by Guldklumpen
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2 - Several places i have read, that goldfish secrete an growth inhibiting hormone.

A hormone that stunts their growth so that they stay smaller if the water

conditions or the size of the pond / tank is not optimal.

Is it true? ...and if so, where can i learn more about it?

Yes, it is. When a fish becomes stressed, it promptly releases the growth hormones. Unless the stressor is removed, your fish is unlikely to grow any further. But once it is removed, expect a growth spurt in your fish. It is for this reason maximum filtration and water changes are very important as well as healthy diet and undercrowding.

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I think people used to think the goldfish "grew to fit the space"....I guess that is kind of true in that the fish will not reach it's maximum potential size. But when the exterior ceases to grow that causes the interior organs to be crammed into too small of a space. This causes damage that'll decrease the length of life.

Regular Large Water Changes + Powerful Filtration = healthy clean water & big, healthy fish!!

I'm lucky (and maybe weird) because I actually LIKE doing the water changes. I had my grandkids this weekend....we had fun & kept busy so no water change. BUT it is on the agenda for tomorrow!!!

Edited by Jeana727
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It is my understanding that cramped goldfish have organs that grow to normal sizes in a body that stays too small. Much like the idea of keeping a growing human in a crib. It will grow, but deformed and never be as healthy as it would with space to move and develop probably. The lifespan will be much shorter. Three years is barely a drop in a bucket for a goldfish which can live well over twenty years.

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And I would definitely try to convince her to invest in a larger tank for the well being of her four fish. Good luck! :)

Believe me, i have tried :(

Sometimes she does not even fill it to the rim, because she thinks she can save money on water.

I just cant force her, i even offered her the spare 135 liter tank ive got.

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So, does their own growth inhibiting hormone only affect the body?

But not the organs?

Sorry for asking stupid questions, but i wanna make sure i get this right.

It's for this reason stunting a fish tantamount to cruelty.

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