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Momo Pineconed Again


Sakura

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No, Momo first pineconed before I put Fuu in the tank. Then he seemed to recover, except for the bump on his head from being bloated never went away. Then a little while after Fuu being in the tank and taken back out, he started to pinecone again, only worse. Because the puffiness on his head never went away, I'm thinking that he never got totally better, but just a little bit, and then it came back.

I guess I'm not sure if the copper treats internal parasites. Ken just said it treats all ciliated parasites -ones that move by cilia. Included are things like ich, costia, velvet, etc...

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Gracious! Sakura,if it were me,I would keep copper out of the 29g. I would try to keep that water as pristine as possible-except I would probably add epsom salt. After I had carbon in my filters for a few days,some of my fish started to react to it,and improved w/i hours of taking it out. It's not surprising to me that Momo's dropsy came back w/ a vengeance -I think most relapses of any kind come back tougher and stronger than before,b/c they've built up some immunity and strength-like they've been lifting weights.

For Ino,I would HP again-I have been doing it 2 days in a row,just in case I miss anything w/ my 1st 1. Ken gave me the confidence to try this-and it has worked great. For Isis,I would just lightly 'touch' an hp swab to the affected area-not rub or 'try to clean out',just touch it to the spot. Another thing I do is dry the spot off and apply some Neosporin,and this has been very effective-but 'dry' the spot well so it will stay in place as long as possible-and sometimes that's not very long-but that's ok. I apply it w/ a q-tip.

And it seems like it would be ok to continue w/ the food-I don't think it's hurting them -unless,of course,you think that it is somehow harming them.

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These pictures are hard to look at :( I am so sorry you're going through all of this. It looks like they all caught a bug of some sort, but with all of the problems you're having I'm still wondering if they've been adding things to your water. Is there any way you can get a list of everything they add to your water?

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Thanks Susan, that helps a lot! So for Isis you think it would be okay to dab lightly with HP, wait a little while, and then do some neosporin? Or should I do the neosporin right away after the HP? I don't actually have any neosporin right now, but I might be able to get some. I will go ahead and HP the spot on Ino again then. Should I dab very lightly, or is it good to try and get the HP in there pretty well? (Gently of course :))

Tay that is a good idea, I am always so curious about the tap water stuff. I have called the water company twice and they are not very helpful- actually kind of rude! :o But it would be worth a try. Both times they said the have to keep things very stable though because of water quality regulations here that leave little room for error or drastic changes.

The other thing is that it could be an issue with the water pipes in my apartment building or something like that. :undecided:

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Perhaps the water company is scared you'll sue them :o I hate rude companies, it's so un-professional. Oh you're right about that Sakura. Do you know if the apartment pipes are old or new?

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I think the HP swabs are fine. I do think medicated food, since everyone is eating is the good plan here, but I am starting to wonder if the mix in the gel food isn't quite right. And maybe you should just order some metromeds and go from there. I sort of doubt it is parasitic since they have been treated for everything with the coppersafe, but I can't say for sure. I am so sorry. Your poor Momo.

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Perhaps the water company is scared you'll sue them :o I hate rude companies, it's so un-professional. Oh you're right about that Sakura. Do you know if the apartment pipes are old or new?

They probably are! And I totally don't want to sue anyone, I just want answers :( Hmm, I don't know about the apartment pipes. I could ask the apartment manager, but honestly I'm a little bit afraid to because I'm not technically supposed to have fish tanks here :ignore Maybe I can ask and make it seem like I want to know how safe the pipes are for drinking purposes...

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Are you anywhere near a university or school where you may be able to get it tested?

My objective when using hp is if it's not 'fleshy' yet-I just 'touch to' to cleanse something before it really becomes something. In other words,I try not to disturb the scales at all-just get hp on the area. IF it has become 'fleshy',and it looks like it has,it's more of 'take the very top off' of the area,so that healing cells can begin to form. It's still important to be very gentle b/c you don't want to make the spot any worse or deeper by reaming it out b/c that would be counter productive. did I explain the difference very well?

I would also put some Neo on Momo,especially Momo,in fact. I get all of the stuff together that I'm going to use,and set it out where I will be working. I get the q-tips soaking in the hp,and put the (Cream)Neo on other q-tips and set them on or in something(like a medicine cap)so that the Neo stays put. Then I have some dry q-tips set out so that I can dry the area. So I get the fish in a basket,usually, and try to apply the hp w/o handling them-I figure the less handling, the better. Then I take the dry q-tips and just touch it to the area to remove as much moisture as possible.Then I grab the Neo tips and try to get as much to stick as I can. I just do it all as fast as I possibly can . Like anything you're doing for the 1st time,it's a little unnerving,but it becomes easier. Then just set the little fishy back into his tank.

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Thanks Susan, I couldn't get any neosporin but I did the HP swab on each of them yesterday. Today Ino's spot looks white and scabby. I hope that's a good sign. Isis' red spot doesn't look bad today, but her scales are beginning to lift.

Classes start up again tomorrow so my free time from now on will be extremely limited. So with all these sick fish to deal with, I'm majorly stressing.

I think I want to treat the main tank with Maracyn 2. I have had many cases of pinconing in the past, and the only thing that ever worked was Maracyn 2. So I think I'm going to have to order a whole bunch of that and treat the main tank. I'm not excited about this, because in my experience M2 always knocks down the biofilter quite a bit. And treating such a large tank is going to take a lot of M2, especially with all the water changes this is going to require. So yeah... I am not pleased.

I'm thinking an alternative to losing the cycle by treating the M2 in the main tank, would be to maybe treat the fish in the 29g tank, and run some PP on the main tank to try and disinfect it without totally losing the cycle. Would that even work? I have never used PP before, and I'm really scared to try, but it would be worth it if I could kill most of the bad stuff without losing the cycle.

Then when the fish were done with the M2 treatment, I could put them back in the main tank where (hopefully) there would still be some beneficial bacteria left, and they hopefully would not just get sick again. I don't know. It seems risky, because it might not kill the bad stuff. I need some advice please! I'm pretty sure whatever is going on is bacterial, since the copper that is in there right now would kill any parasites except flukes, and I have treated Prazi many times for flukes. But at the same time, the Metro gel food is doing nothing at all, so I think a water med is necessary.

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Thanks Susan, I couldn't get any neosporin but I did the HP swab on each of them yesterday. Today Ino's spot looks white and scabby. I hope that's a good sign. Isis' red spot doesn't look bad today, but her scales are beginning to lift.

Classes start up again tomorrow so my free time from now on will be extremely limited. So with all these sick fish to deal with, I'm majorly stressing.

I think I want to treat the main tank with Maracyn 2. I have had many cases of pinconing in the past, and the only thing that ever worked was Maracyn 2. So I think I'm going to have to order a whole bunch of that and treat the main tank. I'm not excited about this, because in my experience M2 always knocks down the biofilter quite a bit. And treating such a large tank is going to take a lot of M2, especially with all the water changes this is going to require. So yeah... I am not pleased.

I'm thinking an alternative to losing the cycle by treating the M2 in the main tank, would be to maybe treat the fish in the 29g tank, and run some PP on the main tank to try and disinfect it without totally losing the cycle. Would that even work? I have never used PP before, and I'm really scared to try, but it would be worth it if I could kill most of the bad stuff without losing the cycle.

Then when the fish were done with the M2 treatment, I could put them back in the main tank where (hopefully) there would still be some beneficial bacteria left, and they hopefully would not just get sick again. I don't know. It seems risky, because it might not kill the bad stuff. I need some advice please! I'm pretty sure whatever is going on is bacterial, since the copper that is in there right now would kill any parasites except flukes, and I have treated Prazi many times for flukes. But at the same time, the Metro gel food is doing nothing at all, so I think a water med is necessary.

Please give PP a go, it's not that scary. Just do your sums correctly and follow it's procedure closely and everything will be fine. I think you've done your best here and it don't seems to work. Time to try something out of the ordinary. I use PP dose all the time and I sweared by it. I hope that I've given you enough confidence to try it.:(

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You mean PP with the fish in the tank? I was thinking I would treat the fish with Maracyn 2 in the smaller tank, and PP the main tank (that will be running with most of the cycled media) when the fish are not in it. If that makes sense. I didn't think PP was okay to use on dropsied fish? Or is it fine?

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You mean PP with the fish in the tank? I was thinking I would treat the fish with Maracyn 2 in the smaller tank, and PP the main tank (that will be running with most of the cycled media) when the fish are not in it. If that makes sense. I didn't think PP was okay to use on dropsied fish? Or is it fine?

Dropsy fish that are bacteria related will be very effective. I normally dose a single fish or two in a 3L tank for 4 hours.

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Don't try Maracyn 2 , I don't think it will do any good. You don't have a lot of time here. If you are confident enough, take the filter out and PP the lot in your main tank ( note: pp will stain your glass and dechlorinator will neutralized pp)

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Whaaat? PP stains the glass? :( I think Daniel (Beancurd Turtle) uses PP in his tank (purple color) every once in a while as a tonic, and I don't think it stained his tank?

So what I need to do is unplug the filters, dose the PP and leave it in for four hours, making sure there is no dechlorinator in the tank at that time? Then what? Do a water change to get the PP out? Or can I just add something to neutralize it? Then I can plug the filters back in? I don't want to do that if it will stain the glass or the silicone though...

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I just checked out the sections on Copper and PP in the book "Fancy Goldfish". It says that copper is an antibacterial, which I didn't know. If what's going on in the tank is bacterial, shouldn't the copper I'm using be eliminating it? :undecided:

Dosing the PP seems really confusing. I would have a hard time trusting myself to get it right, as I'm not good with numbers and being precise about things.

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Whaaat? PP stains the glass? :( I think Daniel (Beancurd Turtle) uses PP in his tank (purple color) every once in a while as a tonic, and I don't think it stained his tank?

So what I need to do is unplug the filters, dose the PP and leave it in for four hours, making sure there is no dechlorinator in the tank at that time? Then what? Do a water change to get the PP out? Or can I just add something to neutralize it? Then I can plug the filters back in? I don't want to do that if it will stain the glass or the silicone though...

Yes, it will stain but you can get it off by using HP, (it neutralizes PP). You can dose for 4 hrs ( or less if or until the water turn amber depending how much pollutant are in the water.) Try not to run the filter with it otherwise all your bb will be gone or worst still it may damage your filter elements. Try to put all your fish in a separate container (I also used a mop bucket 10L too) large enough for your fishes (how many do you have?). 4 hour(Max) is a very short time so don't worry about water quality. I'll prefer you do it (pp) outside your main tank... It's a lot easier and it's very safe. If you are going to it, I can walk you through it. :)

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I just checked out the sections on Copper and PP in the book "Fancy Goldfish". It says that copper is an antibacterial, which I didn't know. If what's going on in the tank is bacterial, shouldn't the copper I'm using be eliminating it? :undecided:

Dosing the PP seems really confusing. I would have a hard time trusting myself to get it right, as I'm not good with numbers and being precise about things.

Copper kills everything too. In that case, only way is to pp outside and you can put all your fish back immediately after that..

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I just checked out the sections on Copper and PP in the book "Fancy Goldfish". It says that copper is an antibacterial, which I didn't know. If what's going on in the tank is bacterial, shouldn't the copper I'm using be eliminating it? :undecided:

Dosing the PP seems really confusing. I would have a hard time trusting myself to get it right, as I'm not good with numbers and being precise about things.

Copper kills everything too. In that case, only way is to pp outside and you can put all your fish back immediately after that..

It is not that hard (easier than you thought), I'm giving you a simplified version.

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I have used PP to sterilize and haven't had it stain as long as I use the HP. I know that Sue (CountryLovah) has used PP when all her fish were sick and she couldn't figure out why. As long as you are very careful PP can be a great help.

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I can only speak for the staining. I use PP to sterilize all my beakers, measuring things, aging tubs etc that I use with the tanks. I make it a very dark purple. Since it is not with the fish you don't have to be precise. Anyways, it never stained anything, be it glass or plastic. When I neutralize it and rinse out the things, sometimes I get brown deposit I guess where the 'dirt' was, I just scrub that off.

BeancurdTurtle uses the pre-measured/dosed liquid from Goldfish Connection.

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So classes started this week and I haven't had time to do anything with the fish except feed them :( (Metro gel food)

I'm still waiting for the Maracyn 2 I ordered, and still have no clue what I'm going to treat them with. The only fish that seem totally unaffected so far are Toad and Padme. They must have better immune systems or something. Also Ino looks good aside from that scabby thing on her side. It still looks white and scabby today which I'm assuming is good...? White scab=healing right?

Momo and Peach keep looking worse day by day and I'm just really at a loss for what to try. I think I will finally add some epsom tonight before bed. I think I'm too scared (and also don't have the time to learn right now) to do the PP on them. Momo has started bottom sitting pretty much all the time, and he's still really bloated and pineconed. It's not looking good for him. Peach is pineconed and bloated a little more, but not as bad as him. Isis has more furuncle-type junk along her lateral line in different places than before. I'm going to HP it. At this point I've accepted that I might lose Momo :cry1 based on how he looks and my past experiences with dropsy... But I CANNOT lose Isis. She is my other favorite, and I would just be crushed to lose them both.

Loki is still doing pretty well and being his cute little self. He suffered for a while when I first treated the Prazi so I was worried, but I think he was just feeling the wrath of thousands of gill flukes being killed. He seems better now. :)

So just a little update I guess.

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Oh gosh...I just wish I could think of something. They are such special fish and I know what Momo means to you. I am so sorry. Have you tried a change of food? Maybe nothing commercial just in case something went rancid (I know it probably isn't that...I'm just trying to think it through). Any more cycle bumps?

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Thanks Amy, yeah Momo is so special to me. The main problem now is my lack of time, I haven't tested the params even in the past few days. I should be able to finally do that tomorrow and do a water change too. I haven't fed them anything commercial in a long time, but maybe they don't like something in the gel food. Actually though that wouldn't really make much sense because I haven't changed anything about the gel food, and they used to be very healthy.

Oh I forgot to add; Momo has this red sore-like area on his side now too. It's a very deep red color and it looks like it developed maybe where a scale fell off or something. I'll upload a picture tomorrow. He has also become very sluggish and slow, which I remember Imo saying can be an indication of organ failure.

I also need to retest the copper level in the 75g tank (there is no copper in the 29g QT with Momo and Peach) and see where that is at. Tomorrow... for now I must sleep :zz

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Wow this must be so terrible for you...

Are they all on the Metro? The only thing I can think of is feeding them JumpStart to help their organisms fight a bit - especially the healthy guys, I would really separate those.

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