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Momo Pineconed Again


Sakura

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Oh noooooooooo :tantrum

Okay so like I wrote above, I dosed the tank with Coppersafe. Only after about 15-20 minutes had passed did I realize I forgot to take the carbon out of the filter! I don't normally use carbon, but I was just using it for a little while today to make sure all the Prazi was out of the water before starting the Coppersafe.

Do you think it's okay? This bag of carbon has been used once before, for only 3-7 consecutive days. And then today for about 6 hours. I have no way of knowing how much of the Coppersafe got soaked up by the carbon, so now I don't know how much is truly in the tank! So I want to add more, but at the same time I'm afraid of overdosing. What should I do? :help:

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Oh gosh Sakura,I don't know anything about Coppersafeundecided.gif Does it have re-dosing instructions-like 'after so many days,remove x amount of water,and re-dose'? I can go look at it.............00000945.gif

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Oh for Coppersafe it stays active in the water for 30 days. When you do water changes, you need to add back the amount you took out, kinda like with salt. And it also says to remove the carbon during treatment unless the carbon is old (it says 8 days or older).

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Sakura,I don't think I would add anymore-they specifically say not to over dose. Also,do you use Prime? I found the following on a forum:

01-24-2007, 11:04 PMAfter buying my first bottle of coppersafe because another hobbyist raved about it online, saying some people keep it in their tank all the time to prevent disease, I found the product rather confusing.

Copper is a heavy metal and every water conditioner on the market removes heavy metals, so i called the company to ask about that.

They replied not to use any of those products because they would break down the copper into toxic by-products that would kill all the fish! :eek:

The only water conditioner i could find after much searching that didn't remove heavy metals is Seachem's ph 7.0.

Just to be safe, I also did water changes with water that had been run thru my faucet Britta water purifier, which I might add is a very inexpensive way to put purified into your tank.

Boy was that one long month waiting thru water changes and the 30 day effectiveness of Coppersafe. It had no effect on my plants whatsoever, but i did lose a clown knife

.

DOES ANYONE KNOW ANY REALLY FAST WAY TO GET THE STUFF OUT OF YOUR TANK?

Why would Mardel make a product which does not contain the verbal warning i received and that seems so cumbersome to use?

Has anyone had good experiences with it? I know people that add it to their primary tank to avoid disease when adding new fish. is there any better way to do this? thanks for any further info or advice! Peace :)

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Hmm that is very troublesome. Yes I do use Prime. But I specifically told Ken that I use Prime, and he still recommended I use Copper Sulfate. And the only reason I was thinking of adding more is because I suspect the carbon probably took some out. But the funny thing is... I added a dose of Prime right after I added the Coppersafe just in case of a cycle bump or anything odd.

However, the Coppersafe is not straight-up copper or anything. It's chelated copper sulfate. So maybe Prime doesn't remove it in that form? Ugh, so confusing. I think I'll email Ken and see what he thinks. I'm at a total loss!

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Coppersafe is what they are talking about-here's a link to the page:

My link

Did you use Mardel brand? I would not to worry about it tonight,and maybe call the Co. yourself in the morning. I understand that you just want to replace what the carbon may have removed,but I don't know how you would go about determining what that would be,and the bottle itself warns against using too much. Then when you call them,they can give you some guidance. What do you think?

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Yeah that sounds like a good idea. Yes, it was the Mardel Coppersafe. I'm a little bit wary of trusting their customer service though after that odd bit of advice with the Prazi and salt not mixing from the makers of PraziPro! But I will still call them and see what they say tomorrow. :)

Edited by Sakura
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I was wondering about that. Do they sell those at chain pet stores like Pet*smart or Pet*co?

EDIT: I just check pet*smart's website and they have a copper test kit on there made by API! They probably have it in stores too. But what level should the copper be at? Isn't it .15 ppm or something like that? Hmm...

Okay I answered my own question again :doh11: Yep, it's .15-.20 ppm copper to kill parasites. Found this on google search:

COPPER SULFATE:

USE: For treatment freshwater and marine ich, Oodinium, external parasites, fungus and even algae. Very effective when used properly and carefully. One the more effective treatments for freshwater Velvet (Piscinoodinium pillulare), as copper will attack both swimming stage and the dormant stage (as this is when the parasite uses its chloroplasts to produce nutrients, and the copper destroys these).

DOSAGE: Treat according to your solution to bring your copper level to .15 -.20 ppm. Sequestered Copper (often called chelated, but that is incorrect, chelated means inactivated) sulfate works best (citric acid help achieve this). Soluble copper salts work well in freshwater only.

Please not that copper, basically kills the parasite by poisoning it more than the fish, so never overdose.

Do not use with snails and other invertebrates, do not use in reef aquariums, and note; when uses as an algaecide, the copper is absorbed by the algae then released when it dies. Removal of sequestered copper can be difficult, only EDTA (Ethylene Diamine Tetra Acidic Acid) and water changes remove it, NOT carbon.

For an effective treatment for ich, fungus, and especially Velvet, Medicated Wonder Shells are extremely for Velvet in particular as they have three of the most effective ingredients for the treatment of Velvet; Copper Sulfate, Acriflavin, & Methylene Blue. They also add electrolytes and calcium, essential for proper healing.

http://www.electricarticles.com/display.aspx?id=584

Edited by Sakura
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Everyone is acting about the same this morning, and Momo is still pineconed :(

I have to help a friend move to her new place today, but after that I'm going to go buy a copper test kit and see where we're at.

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Hi Sakura, I'm sorry to see you have your hands full right now. I see your gf are in the 75g, which is very large for treatment of sick fish. Why not lower the water to half for this and you can safe on salt and medicine? Only thing troublesome is the water noise if you don't mind. :)

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Hi Lionchu :) I actually already lowered it to 60 gallons. Not a huge difference, but it's fully stocked at 6 fish, so I didn't want to decrease water volume too much. Also the tank has just gotten over a small cycle bump so I wanted to be cautious and still allow some wiggle room for waste dilution.

I wish I could go get that copper test kit right now but I have to leave soon to go help my friend. She's moving close to me, which means I will finally have a friend where I live again!

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Hi Lionchu :) I actually already lowered it to 60 gallons. Not a huge difference, but it's fully stocked at 6 fish, so I didn't want to decrease water volume too much. Also the tank has just gotten over a small cycle bump so I wanted to be cautious and still allow some wiggle room for waste dilution.

I wish I could go get that copper test kit right now but I have to leave soon to go help my friend. She's moving close to me, which means I will finally have a friend where I live again!

Mmmm, looks like lots of testing and w/c again.I have a bit of free time on my hands now that my Black Ranchu is stable. I thought I just pop over to see what are you up to and also whether I can be of any assistance.:rolleyes:

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I think it's been long enough now to say that the metro food is not helping :(

I just removed Momo and Peach and put them into the 29g hospital tank that Fuu used to be in. I cleaned out the tank, but kept the cycle. Right now there is no copper in their hospital tank, but there was copper in the main tank where they came from. I'm undecided about whether or not to add copper for them.

Here's Momo today, the scales just keep sticking out more, and he is now more bloated.

a005.jpg

He also has some weird black stuff spreading on his tail fin only. It could possibly be healing from ammonia, because a couple weeks ago there was a cycle bump. But I'm also suspicious of the carbon I added to the tank, and also the copper as possible causes. Because it showed up around the time that I used the carbon for a day, and then added the copper. Not too sure.

a007.jpg

Here is Peach. I removed her too because she is slightly bloated and her scales seem slightly prickly.

a008.jpg

Here is Isis. She had a white nodule sticking out of her lateral line (similar to what Yoshi has had), but today it has turned into a red irritated area. Should I HP it?

a011.jpg

This photo below is Ino, not Momo (close-up they look similar). About a week ago she developed a red sore where a scale fell off, so I HPed it. It bled right after the HP swab, but then got this white scabby look to it. The white scab has not gotten any smaller over the course of a week. Then when I tried to get a photo of it today, she was squirming so I accidently brushed off the white part. Underneath it is still bloody, and that's what you see in this photo. I didn't want to HP it again because I thought you should only do it once right? But I'm just not sure what to do because it doesn't seem to be healing.

a013.jpg

To recap... there is copper in the main tank right now, and all are getting metro gel food which is not helping.

There is no copper yet in the 29g QT (with Momo and Peach) and they are getting metro gel food which is not helping.

So any ideas on where to go next with all of this? I think I should continue the copper in the main tank, but I don't know for how long I'm supposed to do that. I plan to do a water change today and lower the water level a bit in the main tank, since there are only 4 fish in there now.

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P.S. I just noticed some little white nodules sticking out from Peach's left gill. What do you guys think of those? I'm going to see if she will let me take a closer look... It would explain why she's been hanging near the surface a lot.

Well never mind that. I just took a good look inside both gills and they are totally fine. Must have just been a lighting trick or something.

Edited by Sakura
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OMGosh what a mess.... :(

the only advice I can offer is - either the dropsy is not healing because the Metro is targeting the wrong type of bacteria. - OR - you are dealing with a parasitic problem.

I am not sure what the copper does. But maybe the scale is not healing because of that? Salt would probably be better for that particular case. (for Ino)

The black does look like ammo burn :( the carbon does different harm. (Momo).

And you are sure that there is nothing in your tank that could be irritating them?

Have you contacted Imo?

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The copper treats a wide spectrum of parasites. It pretty much kills them all except for flukes, which have developed defenses against copper medications. But I have treated many many times for flukes. Ken advised I use the copper, he said it was very safe when used properly. Also, he said that salt at .3% does not kill parasites. At least not on his fish that are shipped from China, because they use so much salt on the fish in China- the parasites are used to it. He says to kill them with salt I'd have to go up to .6 or .9, which would be more harsh on the fish anyways than the copper. Plus the copper is cheaper and simpler than using salt. I can even monitor it with a test kit :)

I think with Momo the dropsy could be because of failing internal organs, not bacteria. Or maybe internal organs that have started to fail because of the bacterial infection. This is the second time the dropsy has cropped up with him, and this time it is much worse than last time. Ken says that once true allover dropsy like this occurs on a fish, it signals organ failure, and it's pretty much irreversible. :( Also it says this in the Fancy Goldfish book.

Edited by Sakura
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Okey so copper gets also internal parasites?

As for the dropsy I don't know, Dr.House was like that the first time and she recovered real good :) Momo was fine tho right? Until you put Fuu in the tank?

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