Ick -> Dropsy Problem

[ejk722]

So I bought an adorable ryukin from nnnn the other day because it in particular looked really sick in the tank. LARGE fella, sucks at your fingers and is very very kind. I've lost many fish in the past to dropsy and I don't know if I can take it again. But I got this one cause I knew he would die in that crowded tank eventually.

Water Info:

Sorry, I don't have exact parameters, but I've tested the water twice at two different pet stores and the levels were great on everything except pH was low, 6.8 or so both times.

What I've Done:

Salted the tank with Kosher salt to a 0.3 solution (I suck at math, I think that's right; a tablespoon per gallon). Added Epsom salt recently, a little under 1/4 teaspoon. The tank is 10 gallons.

Been feeding him Jungle Lab Antibacterial food for the past three days.

Water changes everyday pretty much. Is that too often? I've been doing 15% changes everyday, vacuuming the gravel and whatnot.

The Ryukin:

At first had about two or three white ick spots, fish looked pretty tired. The salt definitely got rid of any visible ick, I don't see any at all. However, you know the course of that horrible white junk.

Now his stomach is a little bloated (I think, can't really tell cause he's a fancy goldfish) but he's definitely pine coning very very slightly.

Last night he was laying on the bottom until I would come up to him and then he'd swim all around again.

But today he's swimming around beautifully now in the tank, seems very happy.

What Do I Do?

His poop sometimes looks pretty good, but once last night I found floating at the top a poop that was kind of clear but also brown and normal (a short string). Obviously it was floating cause it was airy. On my first day with him he had bubbly poop but not since. So should I keep feeding this Jungle food or should I fast him for a day and flush out the stuff with peas? Dropsy question: Is flushing out the system the best thing for dropsy?

I ordered Metromeds today...

What I'm Anal About:

The tank doesn't have a top and it's situated pretty close to an AC vent (not directly under, but to the side and close). Would that cause stressful temperature problems? (And yet, the summer weather changes so fast from hot in the day to cold at night, it seems that keeping him away from the vent would make for a really hot tank to a really cold tank as opposed to now, a decently cool tank to a cool tank.)

The antibacterial food I've had for a while now, maybe bought it sometime last summer. I know! It's old, I didn't think it'd be that big of an issue though. The stuff was expensive and all I had on me... I should stop with that right?

Here is what he looks like:

http://twitpic.com/28xlus

Edited July 28, 2010 by ejk722

[mardaokansi]

first question I need to ask is did you perform a full, 100% water change before adding in the epsom salt? epsom salt and salt do not mix.

your salt is off too. it's 3 teaspoons to equal one tablespoon. and it's 1 teaspoon per gal. there is a GREAT link in my sig for help w/ salting.

the epsom is correct, 1/4 teaspoon per 10 gals.

your pH is low. that can be causing some of the issues you are having. I have another great link in my sig about pH/kH/gH help. you'll need to get that raised. do it slowly though, as fluctuations in pH are not good.

Edited July 28, 2010 by Martha

[Cynders]

First, the pH looks like it'll be a problem. I would add some crushed coral to the filter box to prevent anymore stress from the low pH. That way the crushed coral will buffer it up.

Next, I would remove the kosher salt. You only want epsom salt in the tank and no other salt because it can be detrimental to their health, so I would get rid of all of the salt out of the tank and start over with the dosages of epsom. Epsom is 1/4 teaspoon per 10 gallons of water. The regular salt dosage is 1 teaspoon per gallon so be careful about over dosing. It's good he's feeling better though.

As for the poo it sounds like he's a bit stressed, but it could be from the pH or just from being in a new environment. I would do a fasting day and feed him some unsalted peas just to get him flushed out again.

Edit: Just saw Martha's post. Definitely do the 100% water change before doing anything else.

Edited July 28, 2010 by Tay

[ejk722]

Crap! No I did not... Should I change out the water just cause of that mistake? Ever since that most recent water change and the epsom salt he's been looking better than before it seems... It might just have been the new water but I don't know. ######.

Okay I'll do the water change. Thanks for such a quick response.

Edited July 28, 2010 by ejk722

[Cynders]

Do a 100% water change, like martha said the salt and epsom can be very bad for them. Vacuum your gravel too to get any leftover ich eggs if there are any left.

[mardaokansi]

I was going to say to finish up the med food, depending on the brand it ranges from 5, 8, or 10 days. but since this food old, (and it's been opened before?), I would stop feeding. fast, and then feed cooked, deshelled peas. mush them up a little before feeding, and make sure there's no sugar or salt in the peas.

[koko]

I have learned the hard way.....

If you pick up a fish and lets say there ph is 7.8 and you get it home, let the fish float to get use to the temp but not letting them adjust to your ph cause lets say yours is at 6.4, you can cause the fish to have a shock, sometimes getting red fins, sometimes dropsys.

The information every gave you is right, but the ph might have caused the fish to go into shock if the ph was different in both places...

just wanted to add that info

[ejk722]

Gotcha. Well I did a 100% change and planning to do a water test later today cause I don't know what the pH of my tap water is. Right when I added him into the tank again, I realized I hadn't put in de-chlorinator. Ah! So two seconds later the Novaqua was in the water, but still... You think the two seconds in the chlorine did much damage? He's really active now, swimming around and exploring the gravel, etc.

So you guys think fasting, green pea before starting on MetroMeds?

Also I'm concerned about the tank's cycle. Is it completely messed up now since the water is all new, or is enough/most of this cycling bacteria in the filter?

Edited July 28, 2010 by ejk722

[j0shua]

Gotcha. Well I did a 100% change and planning to do a water test later today cause I don't know what the pH of my tap water is. Right when I added him into the tank again, I realized I hadn't put in de-chlorinator. Ah! So two seconds later the Novaqua was in the water, but still... You think the two seconds in the chlorine did much damage? He's really active now, swimming around and exploring the gravel, etc.

So you guys think fasting, green pea before starting on MetroMeds?

Also I'm concerned about the tank's cycle. Is it completely messed up now since the water is all new, or is enough/most of this cycling bacteria in the filter?

The bulk of the bacteria is in the filter.

[Cynders]

The 2 seconds probably didn't bother him at all. If you could get the numbers of all your params that would be great, and see if you can get them to test it with the drop test kits. The strips are nowhere near accurate.

Yes, I think a day of fasting, and a green pea will work well. (non salted!) Do you think you can get another picture of him? It's hard to see if he's actually bloating or if it's just his belly. If he's eating well that's a good sign.

No the bacteria don't live in the water they live in the filter in the filter media so it's fine.

[ejk722]

So he's definitely pineconing now and laying on the bottom again until I go up to him. He seemed way better yesterday though. I'm just waiting for MetroMeds to come in the mail cause I don't think there's much more I can do...

[Captain Findus Goldfish]

is he in with the required dose of epson salt + a nice comfortable temperature (26ish C)???

[ejk722]

yep, it's 26 c and there's a little less than 1/4 teaspoon of epsom salt in this 10 gallon tank (which holds less than 10 gallons).

Edited July 29, 2010 by ejk722

[ejk722]

your salt is off too. it's 3 teaspoons to equal one tablespoon. and it's 1 teaspoon per gal. there is a GREAT link in my sig for help w/ salting.

Also, I don't get this. Why was my salt off? I was trying to do a 0.3% salt concentration in the tank. If I did 1 tablespoon (3 teaspoons) per gallon, 10 tablespoons for a 10 gallon tank, isn't that 0.3%?

[mardaokansi]

your salt is off too. it's 3 teaspoons to equal one tablespoon. and it's 1 teaspoon per gal. there is a GREAT link in my sig for help w/ salting.

Also, I don't get this. Why was my salt off? I was trying to do a 0.3% salt concentration in the tank. If I did 1 tablespoon (3 teaspoons) per gallon, 10 tablespoons for a 10 gallon tank, isn't that 0.3%?

my apologies I missed that you were at 0.3%. I was trying 2 type really fast so you would do a w/c to remove the salt.

[ejk722]

No problem, thank you so much for the help. So my little guy has improved GREATLY. Swims around beautifully, the right side is a little more pineconed than before, but it's improved since the morning I think slightly because I added Maracyn 2 to the tank (there's epsom in there already). Did the pea thing. Fed him Jungle Anti-PARASITE food today cause of the metro in it (new bottle), planning to do that for two more days just until the MetroMeds come, which are taking a while despite the fact that they shipped out a few days ago Priority UPS. He's still eating very well. Like a pig actually.

Edited July 31, 2010 by ejk722