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j0shua

Pumpkin Is Bloated And Pineconing :(

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[*]Ammonia Level? 0

[*]Nitrite Level? 0

[*]Nitrate level? 10ppm

[*]Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)? 7.4. KH and GH should be on the lower side, but there's crushed coral in the filter.

[*]Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)? Never tested.

[*]Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? API Freshwater Master Test Kit.

[*]Water temperature? No thermometer, probably around 28 Celcius, 82 Farenheit.

[*]Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? 22 Gallons, running for about 3 months.

[*]What is the name and size of the filter(s)? Hagen Aquaclear 70 on max flow.

[*]How often do you change the water and how much? Usually 25% every three day.

[*]How many fish in the tank and their size? 2x Orandas, about 4" body length.

[*]What kind of water additives or conditioners? Hagen Nutrafin Aqua-Plus

[*]What do you feed your fish and how often? Hikari Lionhead sinking pellets, peas, broccoli, orange, zucchini, papaya, other veges. 3 small feedings daily.

[*]Any new fish added to the tank? They were introduced to the uncycled tank 3 months ago. Tank cycled in 2 weeks with used media numerous water changes.

[*]Any medications added to the tank? Salted lightly as of a week ago, but we've been diluting that so it should be extremely low, or completely salt-free by now.

[*]Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? Red fin streaks as of today.

[*]Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.? They seem active as normal.

Hi, sorry to keep posting here about Pumpkin, but she's looking really bad today and I'm not sure what to do.

She started bloating up about 4-5 days ago, and pineconing a bit. Today it's pretty bad, she's very pineconed and very bloated. We have been feeding her peas regularly this past week. We also noticed that her rear vent had a couple of unfertilised eggs, much like the last time ( http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/forum/index.php?/topic/84454-tank-1-pumpkins-rear-end-issue/ ) but the vent isn't distended. We believe she'd eggbound and unable to release, and bloating up because of that.

She has been very active the past few days, and only today did I notice the red streaks in her tail. She still moves about a lot, and actively feeds and responds to us. I have been changing out 20% water daily, making sure the params are good. The water changes have also helped remove most, if not all, of the salt in the tank.

I bought a bottle of Melafix today, but haven't used it. I'm thinking of QTing her in a spare tank with a filter containing some of the media from her original tank, and adding the Melafix as per instructions. Or shall I run out and find some Epsom salt, which I hear is also suitable for this condition? Her partner Ponyo is fine, he's happily swimming around, but not interested in mating at all.

Also, what triggers the production of eggs in a goldfish? I read somewhere that it's a rise in temperatures, as well as regular feedings of 3-4 or more times a day and the presence of plants for the eggs to attach themselves to.

Thank you so much in advance. I really hope she pulls through.

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I would definitely get her in a 10 gallon quarantine tank or a rubbermaid with some media exactly like you said and get some epsom salt.

I wouldn't add the melafix at all and I would heat up the water to about 78 degrees farenheit in the quarantine tank. The dosage for epsom salt is 1/4 teaspoon per 10 gallons of water.

Make sure you dissolve it in some tank water before adding it to the quarantine tank. Also when she's in quarantine make sure you add a bubbler for extra oxygen due to the raised temperatures.

Edited by Tay

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I would definitely get her in a 10 gallon quarantine tank or a rubbermaid with some media exactly like you said and get some epsom salt.

I wouldn't add the melafix at all and I would heat up the water to about 78 degrees farenheit in the quarantine tank. The dosage for epsom salt is 1/4 teaspoon per 10 gallons of water.

Make sure you dissolve it in some tank water before adding it to the quarantine tank. Also when she's in quarantine make sure you add a bubbler for extra oxygen due to the raised temperatures.

Roger, Tay. Will do so exactly as you have posted later after I buy some Epsom salt.

Thanks heaps!

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No problem :D Keep us updated with her progress. Oh has she still been eating?

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No problem :D Keep us updated with her progress. Oh has she still been eating?

She's had peas twice a day for the past couple of days. I haven't been feeding her so I don't really know what kind of poo she's been having.

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Update:

I've removed her from the main tank into the biggest tub I have, which is a 5 gallon plastic tub. I've plugged in a new filter (AquaClear 20 equivalent) chock full of old media, which happens to be sintered glass tubes and crushed coral from the main tank. I've added an airstone and put 1/8 teaspoon of dissolved Epsom salt into the QT tank. I tested for pH and temp before carefully transferring her in a small tub. She's moving around and still active, and she seems to like the airstone a bit. It's new water, so it's reading 0 ammonia and 0 nitrites.

Her buddy Ponyo is looking super forlorn and lonely in the big tank.

Ok now how often do I do water changes? Maybe 50% and 1/16 of a teaspoon of Epsom salt?

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When you do water changes if the water is a little cooler then that in the tank it can trigger spawning thats what happens most often in mine...I have a 125 gallon an when I do a WC the hot water heater will run out before I fill it so sometimes its cooler towards the end then it warming up over the night will trigger then to spawn. I also hear rainstorms causing the barometrics to drop or something can? I have never seen pineconing caused by egg boung but I know usually if they are full of eggs they come out just picking them up. I have had several istances of transfering or examinging a fish an they will release eggs in the net or hand. My telescope did bottom sit a bit when she was full on eggs...is your other fish a male? and has he been chasing her at all before you transfered her?

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Will do a cooler water change later when I get home, and let the water warm up.

I really don't want to touch her, because she is quite bloated and I'm afraid that she may get hurt, even with a gentle touch. That's why I didn't net her out of the tank, but instead transferred her in a tub of water.

Her partner is a male, I believe. He's smaller, and has shown breeding stars and such before, and never got into the egg producing business. He's not really into the egg fertilizing business, either, but I'm not going to judge him about his preferences :)

Will update after the water change. Thanks!

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The cooler water change had no effect.

She's eating and pooing fine, and is very active, although still quite pineconed.

We have decided that it's a bacterial thing, as there are no visible signs of eggs right now. She's in Epsom salted water with Melafix and heavy aeration at 29 Celcius with a heater.

Also, her partner Ponyo started bottom sitting and pineconing also this morning in the main tank, and we unfortunately just returned home in time to catch his last few minutes before he expired.

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So far I agree with all the advice you've been giving and I think you're handling this well! :exactly

You can actually increase the epsom dose if you wish. I usually start out at 1/4 tsp per 10 gallon which is what you did but if you must you can actually double that.. Remember not to keep epsom in for longer than 8 days.

The tricky part here is the possibility of eggs. Normally when a fish is pineconed we suggest using Metromeds which is a medicated food you can order online at Goldfish Connection that has a high success at treating dropsy. However, if this is pineconing due to eggs than you don't wanna shove medication at the fish...

I think if it were me I would try upping the epsom, continue to feed peas. (you can even put a grain of epsom in the pea if you wanted). I would also suggest ordering the metromeds as a just in case this does turn out to be something other than eggs.

I am a HUGE fan of metromeds and have used them successfully to treat dropsy on a few occasions. So if you can afford them, I think they would be very smart to have on hand, and this way you have them when and if we decide to take that approach..

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Thanks for the info on increasing the Epsom dose, and how long we should leave it in for.

We did give Pumpkin a pea with a single Epsom salt the other day, and hew bowel movements have been regular, if slightly impressive.

We do not have access to Metromeds here. South East Asia, it's not easy to find medicated food at all unless Goldfish Connection delivers internationally.

Pumpkin's a trooper, she's still active. I'm not sure I can bear to lose her, burying Ponyo just now broke my heart :(

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Im sorry I didn't realize where you were from.. I kinda glanced over at the location and seeing the SEA my brain thought Seattle..

No, they won't deliver internationally :-(

Hmmm what kinds of medications do you have access to? I am very uneducated when it comes to what's available in other counties. Would a vet be able to get your Metronidazole if you went to one? It comes in the form of Flagyl which is commonly used in dogs.. I wonder if there's a slim chance you could get someone to get you some of that? Metro is the main ingredient that helps fight the dropsy..

Until then I would keep the water really clean with the extra water changes (which you have been doing).. without meds there is only so much you can do, but clean water is #1 priority esp if it is bacterial dropsy..

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Thanks for replying, CL.

We're still reeling from losing Ponyo last night, and today Pumpkin didn't seem all that well, and it appears she may be following Ponyo up to fishy heaven.

If I can get Metronidazole or Flagyl, how would I apply it? In what form does it come in, and how would I use it with her food?

I'll check the vet in a short while and see if I can get some of those meds. In the meantime, we're trying to make sure she's getting clean water. She's in a chlorophyll bath with Epsom at the moment.

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I believe if you were to get it from a vet it comes in a tablet form.

Move the pineconed fish to a seperate hopsital tank and then add 500 miligrams of Flagyl per 10 gallons of water. Do a partial water change every 3-4 days then redose for at least 3 treatments.

OR you can mix it into the food if you wish. I've never done that myself though, so maybe another member will have some tips on that.

She's in a chlorophyll bath with Epsom at the moment.

I've never heard of that before..I'll have to do some reading!

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I've asked Imo about the chlorophyll baths b4...but I never tried it. It's not medicine like the metro/flagyl.

edit, the following quotes are from another site and not Imo

Chlorophyll and Goldfish

Promotes healing and is beneficial in treating ulcers; abscesses; open wounds; tumors; internal and external bacteria infection; enhances general health and boosts immune system. Increases oxygen levels in fish that have suffered from nitrite or nitrate poisoning. Chlorophyll may be administered orally by adding to gel food; or the fish may be given a green liquid bath; or the two combined doubling its effect.

Chlorophyll Treatments Green Bath:

Using an appropriate sized container (free of contaminants) fill with main tank water or treated water (matching temperature in main tank) not to exceed 75 degrees.

Add 1 fluid ounce of liquid chlorophyll per quart of water; allow fish to soak for 5 minutes; once or twice a daily. Use fresh bath and fresh chlorophyll for each bath using main tank water.Chlorophyll can be purchased at your local health food shop. Look for pure liquid chlorophyll, or chlorophyll with mint; no other additives.May temporarily tint light colored fish

Green Treatment:

Add 1 ounce of chlorophyll per 10 gallons of tank water to main tank or pond. Perform daily water changes to remove gradually.

Chlorophyll is a food grade substance; to keep it from degrading, do not allow temperatures to exceed 70 degrees during long term treatments. Heavily oxygenated water may create foam at surface. It may be beneficial to turn down volume on pumps during treatment. Keep surface area free by scooping away excess foam.Chlorophyll may be combined with water treatments, salt, garlic, Epsom salts, baking soda or MelaFix

Green Tonic:

Chlorophyll may be given orally by using a syringe or eye dropper; as often and as much as desired.

Edited by Martha

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Thanks Martha!! Great info. I had never even heard the word before!

So it seems like it's a more gentle healer.. not a strong med that could potentially hurt the fish. More along the lines of say, salt or maybe melafix?

Seems like it won't do any harm and maybe will do some good! I hope so! It would still be great if a vet would give you the metro though.. Fingers crossed!

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Hi guys, thanks so much for helping Pumpkin out!

She was fairly inactive this morning, which was a cause for concern, but was swimming around, eating and pooing normally later in the day. She's still pineconed, but it's no worse than before, and she's swimming upright.

Regarding the chlorophyll baths, I read that in the site Martha quoted from. We so happened to have pure chlorophyll without any additives on hand, and put some in. Now, Pumpkin had a red sore on her side where a scale had fallen off, and shortly after the first chlorophyll bath, that cleared up very nicely. Some of the chlorophyll is clumping up on the surface, and she's been gobbling that down, so I think that's helping also. It'll be tough clearing all the green up, it's all over the filter haha. But yeah, I do believe it's helping, and it's 100% natural so I think it's safe. But it's also organic, so it can't stay in too long.

Now, about the metro... I hunted up and down, and spent the whole day at the biggest LFSes I could find, going through pretty much every bottle and checking the ingredients. I avoided those cure-all tonics from China, there were plenty of bottles claiming to cure dropsy, internal bacteria, the global credit crunch and provide relief and world peace. The vets couldn't help, I tried a couple and they had no metro or Flagyl. In the end I saw one bottle in the corner in the last LFS I went to: Gel Tek Ultra Cure PX. Now I know this is anti-parasite as opposed to anti-bacterial, but it is all I could find and shares some ingredients with Jungle AP, namely metro and prazi. I do understand this is no longer available, though... (no expiration date visible)

Gel Tek Ultra Cure PX

Medical ingredients: Praziquantel 0.0057%, Flubenol 0.03%, Metronidazole 0.30%

Instructions: "Hold back all feeding for 1 day before using. Then use Ultra Cure PX as the only product offered to the fish when fed. Add to the aquarium with the dropper tip on the bottle. Hold bottle 2 inches above water surface and squeeze. Offer at least 5 drops per fish twice a day. Repeat every 24 hours for 3 days."

However, it's the only metro I could find, and I was super relieved when I saw the ingredients. Before I use it, I figured I'd run it through with you guys here, though. Is it ok to give this to Pumpkin? If so, we'll start it tomorrow, at about noon. She would've had about 18 hours without food by then.

Edited by j0shua

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YES! You can totally use that!!! YAYAYA!

PERFECTTTTT!!!! I have used that before when I couldn't find anything else and I do think that is your best shot and hopefully will do the trick! I'm pretty sure it needs to be refridgerated after opening.

Good luck. I really really hope it works..

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Haha this stuff is a pain to use! Once it hits the water it's a transparent orange blob. She's having a hard time picking it out. Have to try to get it straight into her mouth as she comes up, so it's a good thing she surfaces when you call up her name. Also, the good doctors F&S do international delivery, so I'm ordering some metro and Jungle AP also.

CL, thanks for the advice, it's much appreciated. I really hope this works, too. Pumpkin's a real trooper.

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Okay she had her first dose this morning. She couldn't pick it up from the bottle, but we soaked some Hikari Lionhead in it. Each pellet absorbed about a bit more than a drop in a minute, and she had three pellets. We also fed her a bit more gel via syringe, that does work although there is some gel loss. She still has a strong appetite, she ate it all up very quickly. I hope it's not too late, she's been pineconed for a few days already.

We'll continue giving her soaked pellets twice a day, but how long do we keep this treatment up for?

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Also, the good doctors F&S do international delivery, so I'm ordering some metro and Jungle AP also.

Do they really? I didn't even know that! That is great! I will keep that in mind for the future to recommend to people.

LOL I remember the odd orange blob the medicine forms. It's funny my fish had no issues with it, but I have heard it is hard to get some fish to see it or even want to eat it. My fish just gobbled it up.

Good move soaking the pellet in the meds. I think that should do the trick.

We'll continue giving her soaked pellets twice a day, but how long do we keep this treatment up for?

What does the bottle say? I forget. Typically when treating dropsy I ignore the bottles and do a minimum of 14 days.

She still has a strong appetite, she ate it all up very quickly. I hope it's not too late, she's been pineconed for a few days already.

Strong appetitie is one of the very very best signs.. You know, I remember not too long ago being on this board and seeing other people fight dropsy and I had never experienced it personally. Then I ended up having 4 fish with it so now whenever I see people dealing with it, I know exactly how hard it is to watch, and how scary. The good news is I can also tell you that yes there IS hope! It all depends on the reason WHY the fish has dropsied, as dropsy is not so much the actual disease but a reaction TO a particular problem. Depending on what that problem is, it may or may not be helped. And there is always a chance that once it happens, it will happen again. The good news is that it is not a death sentence like it used to be. SO many books will say "no cure" or "euthanize the fish" and I disagree. Depending on what the problem is that originally caused it, and provided you can treat correctly, there is a good chance your fish can fight it. Strong appetite is a good sign, the fish behaving well is a good sign.

Continue to keep the water as clean as possible. Heat, epsom, clean water and metro are your best friends! :-)

(I actually JUST woke. The alarm went off and believe it or not I was having a nightmare that my favorite fish dropsied and one of my fish that had dropsied before was dropsied again and almost dead. Weird timing huh? I don't think I have ever been this happy to be woken up by an alarm!!

CL, thanks for the advice, it's much appreciated. I really hope this works, too. Pumpkin's a real trooper.

You're very welcome! :)

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Do they really? I didn't even know that! That is great! I will keep that in mind for the future to recommend to people.

Unfortunately, the cost of freight is quite prohibitive. Shipping a few bottles of medication, which in total adds up to about $20ish, costs over $100. I have to look for other alternatives, and I may have found an ebay store that'll sell a bottle of Jungle AP for $4 and ship it for $12. I'll find out tomorrow.

LOL I remember the odd orange blob the medicine forms. It's funny my fish had no issues with it, but I have heard it is hard to get some fish to see it or even want to eat it. My fish just gobbled it up.

Good move soaking the pellet in the meds. I think that should do the trick.

The orange blob disperses quite quickly, especially with aeration on, and she doesn't recognise it as food. It gets sucked up in the filter eventually, and I have read somewhere that metro does not do good to the good bug colony. The Hikari Lionhead absorbs the blob quite well, much better than the Medigold (Japanese product as discussed here.)

What does the bottle say? I forget. Typically when treating dropsy I ignore the bottles and do a minimum of 14 days.

Strong appetitie is one of the very very best signs.. You know, I remember not too long ago being on this board and seeing other people fight dropsy and I had never experienced it personally. Then I ended up having 4 fish with it so now whenever I see people dealing with it, I know exactly how hard it is to watch, and how scary. The good news is I can also tell you that yes there IS hope! It all depends on the reason WHY the fish has dropsied, as dropsy is not so much the actual disease but a reaction TO a particular problem. Depending on what that problem is, it may or may not be helped. And there is always a chance that once it happens, it will happen again. The good news is that it is not a death sentence like it used to be. SO many books will say "no cure" or "euthanize the fish" and I disagree. Depending on what the problem is that originally caused it, and provided you can treat correctly, there is a good chance your fish can fight it. Strong appetite is a good sign, the fish behaving well is a good sign.

Continue to keep the water as clean as possible. Heat, epsom, clean water and metro are your best friends! :-)

(I actually JUST woke. The alarm went off and believe it or not I was having a nightmare that my favorite fish dropsied and one of my fish that had dropsied before was dropsied again and almost dead. Weird timing huh? I don't think I have ever been this happy to be woken up by an alarm!!

Bottle says three days, but I'll keep it going for 14 as you have suggested. I think three days may not be enough for it to take effect. Her appetite today is still good, she gobbled up the soaked pellets very efficiently, and happily took a bit of the orange gel through the syringe. Her movement, however, is quite limited compared to yesterday; she's floating near the surface pretty much in the same spot. She had some bowel movement in the morning, over 12 hours ago, but has had none since. She's such a fighter, I believe she'll pull through, and we're doing our best to make sure her water is pristine, the aeration is strong, that there's sufficient epsom, and that she gets quality meds and food. I feel a huge twinge of sadness reading about other people's fish suffering from dropsy, it's not something I'd wish on any fish. This really is the stuff of nightmares. The fact that her tankmate Ponyo died so fast and suddenly, he started bottom sitting and pineconing and shortly afterwards expired as we tried to get him into a hospital tank, has just made these past few days really really tiring. Pumpkin had pineconed first, but we were so caught up in caring for her, we neglected Ponyo and his water and he seemed to suffer from some nitrate poisoning just before he went. Anyways, I really do hope every moment that Pumpkin will get well soon, and we're very grateful that you've taken the time to share and advise us.

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Update: Pumpkin is still hanging on, and she's still eating and moving around. She does look a bit worse, as she's covered with some black ammonia burn spots. Unfortunately that was our mistake a couple of days ago, the ammonia in her hospital tank did hit 0.25, but the chlorophyll there encouraged her to shed and replace her slime coat, so she was unprotected for a while and even that trace amount hurt her. We quickly moved her back into her original tank, which had been cleaned out and filled with temp and ph matched fresh water. This was about 2 days ago, so I guess the black we're seeing is her healing up. We did another chlorophyll bath today, and the redness around some of her scales very quickly subsided and she perked up noticably. We're giving her daily 25% water changes and twice daily water tests to ensure she's getting good water. Temperature is maintained at 29C.

We have been having trouble feeding her the Gel-Tek metro, she got constipated a bit with the soaked pellets and refused to poo for a whole day. We were worried and gave her and Epsom pea, which solved the problem. She cannot detect the Gel Tek in the water, and the syringe is a painfully difficult way to administer it, as a fair amount gets dispersed in the water. My medi-food from Goldfish Utopia is likely a couple of weeks away, so we had to do something. I spent the better part of tonight, something like 4 hours, having to endure the stench of dissolved gelatin and preparing the following concoction:

1 packet Gelatin

Mushed peas, carrots and a bit of garlic

Crushed Medigold (Japanese version) pellets

1 crushed Sera Spirulina tablet

A few drops of Sera Fishtamins

Some pure garlic oil

1 tablespoon of Gel Tek Ultra Cure PX

Some water

It was a first-time attempt, and I'm glad to say the end result had the desired consistency and Pumpkin happily ate a couple of bite-sized tabs.

The gel food ended up fairly firm, like jello, and retains its shape in the water. We mushed one up with our fingers, and it's easy to break down.

I'm glad we got the ratio right: I ended up with 5 tablespoons of gelatin/warm water (waited for it to cool before mixing) to 3 tablespoons of concentrated veggie/dry ingredients, giving a cup of gel which spread about 1/8" over a small casserole lid (got the ratio off someone's post in the gel thread - thanks!). It's easier for her to have it bite sized, and it should be enough for about 10 days.

Ultimately I'm happy we now have an effective way to administer the metro to her without having it disperse. The peas and garlic and spirulina are all bonuses, so hopefully this will help her recover. The only problem is that I think my sense of smell will never be the same again :P

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Pumpkin fought with so much strength and resilience. She always showed us her brave face, and she gave it her all. Even while she was fading this afternoon as her body started to shut down on her, she followed me to the side of the tank I was to watch me. We did all we could for her. We buried her next to Ponyo, with her favourite stone. Both of them in the span of a week, it's tough. We'll miss them both so much.

Thank you all for your help.

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Oh no! I am so sorry......:( May they both rest in peace. You worked very hard to save them both, and I'm sure they loved being in your loving care. R.I.P.

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