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Dropsy And Distress


amoonklein

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Hi Federica.

I don't know what's going on with them either... it's either a really nasty and stubborn parasite/bacterial bug OR I'm doing something really wrong.

Currently, their poop is white/clear.

Over the weekend, I kind of played musical tanks.

10 gallon - I did 100% water change and wiped down the tank on Saturday. Moose moved in.

26 gallon - I did 100% water change and wiped down the tank on Sunday. Mr. Wendell stayed where he was.

65 gallon - ! did 100 % water change, wiped down the tank, removed marbles, added spray bars, and added epsom salt on Saturday. Mooshu and Martini are together, dropsied.

I added prazi to all tanks on Sunday. I figure it doesn't hurt to do another two weeks on prazi, just in case.

Moose's eyes are back to normal and he looks fine right now except for his fins... still red at the ends, but I think they are healing.

Mooshu and Martini and still dropsied, the heat is up and I have epsom in the tank.

Mr. Wendell is looking better. His scales are totally flat and his energy is up. Still doing a bit of head standing, but overall, he has much improved.

I am really hoping that things get better for all the goldies...

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Oh I have a feeling you might be reaching the end of this craziness thank goodness! :))

For Moose you can try 0.1% salt for his fins. Keep an eye on that for a few days.

I hope everyone else heals soon! I am glad Mr.Wendell is good :)

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Allie you and your fish have been through so much lately. :hug I really hope things are starting to settle down. I know how hard it is to deal with one sick fish so I can only imagine dealing with four as you have done. You really did a great job. :heart Sending you and your crew tons of positive thoughts. :heart

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Thanks, Amy.

Unfortunately, Martini isn't doing too well. I got home from work a few minutes ago and my husband said the he was looking for Martini because he didn't see her in the main tank and after a few minutes, realized she was stuck behind one of the intake tubes motionless. He moved the intake tube to let her free and she swam away... but not very well. He thought she'd be OK but a few minutes later, he saw that she got stuck again. He decided to shut off the filters and once he did that, Martini swam to the bottom of the tank.

At this point, I got home. He told me what happened and I went to investigate. She was pretty listless and getting carried with the current from the airstones, but still struggling to swim. I pulled her out of the tank and have her in a 1 gallon holding tank to let her rest for a bit.

I did have a freak out moment (major hands slaps are in order)and put a little bit of metro meds in the holding tank. I know better. Never do something when in panic... but I did it anyway. I guess I freaked thinking the AP food wasn't helping and I had a moment of desperation thinking if she ate a little of the metro meds, it might help. I wish I hadn't. She struggled but was able to suck up a tiny piece... she ended up spitting it out a few seconds later. A few minutes later, she ate a tiny piece.

I'm not sure what else to do right now. Should I just wait it out and see how she does? or should I do something else to help her out? I'm really worried I might lose her.

:heart

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Allie you and your fish have been through so much lately. :hug I really hope things are starting to settle down. I know how hard it is to deal with one sick fish so I can only imagine dealing with four as you have done. You really did a great job. :heart Sending you and your crew tons of positive thoughts. :heart

Thanks, Edith. Your kind words really mean a lot to me :heart

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Ohh I really wish things were turning around here for you. It seems like you have tried all of the right things and it's just not making the problem go away.

Oh poor you! I would imagine that we still haven't found the root of the problem... :( especially for pop eye, it should be gone by now!

I agree, it seems like there is something causing all of this and we haven't pinpointed the exact cause or correct treatment just yet.

I HAVE had a fish that dropsied for a long long time. Over a month full blown. BUT the confusing part for me in your case is this up and down, back and forth. It is normal for dropsy to recur but its seems so odd that its come and gone so many times, and also effecting ALL of the fish.

I did have a freak out moment (major hands slaps are in order)and put a little bit of metro meds in the holding tank. I know better. Never do something when in panic... but I did it anyway. I guess I freaked thinking the AP food wasn't helping and I had a moment of desperation thinking if she ate a little of the metro meds, it might help.

I've done this before. Don't feel bad.. I know exactly how you feel when you just start to panic and you do something quick without really thinking and then you are like.. "what did I do that for?" The thing is, maybe you shouldn't have done it like that, but maybe it's not a bad idea. Mr. Wendell is doing well and he has had both the AP and MM yes?! And you said all the other fish have already had two weeks of the AP food. Maybe it would be worth a shot to try the fish that have NOT had MM a course of them and see if it helps? Ya know treat this fish as you treated Mr. Wendell and see if it helps. I also agree on you keeping him seperate and in the same tank. I think that was really smart to do.

The one thing that I feel you have working WITH you is that the fish are 1) all eating and 2) fighting this for a while. The simple fact that they are hanging in there at least gives you that chance to keep trying other things. It's frustrating though when the cause is unknown because it leaves you no choice but to keep trying meds in that shotgun approach which is generally such a no-no.

I do wonder if Trinket would have anything else to add that I may be wishing. Man I wish I could clone her brain so that I had the vast amount of knowledge she has! Have you tried to Pm her yet?

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Hi ladies.

What a night. The holding tank I had Martini in is a 1 gallon acrylic tank I've had forever. After she was in there for a bout an hour, I started realizing I wouldn't really be able to put her back in the main tank with Mooshu so I did some quick shopping at the pet store and took home a 10 gallon tank for $10. I figured it wouldn't hurt to have an extra tank just in case. I didn't even think to get a breeding box or anything like that. I'm kind of wishing I had because I don't have an extra filter for the tank so I will have to do daily water changes to make sure water params are OK. If you guys think I should leave her in the 10 gallon by herself, I'll happily do daily 50%ish water changes, but if you think I should pick up a breeder box to put her in the main tank, I can do that too... what do you think?

Overall, Martini is definitely not feeling very well. She is much improved from yesterday evening, but she's still dropsied (more so on the side that was stuck behind the filter intake) and is head standing/bottom sitting while she rests. She will swim around, but prefers to rest in a corner.

The good news is that Mooshu's scales are improving... they are still kind of prickly, but have drastically gone down. She is looking less pine-coney by the minute. She's still bottom sitting most of the time and her eyes look about the same, but hooray for improvement!

I'll officially start Mooshu and Martini on the MetroMeds today for 14 days and see how it goes.

With everything that happened yesterday I totally forgot to add salt to Moose's tank. I'll do that this evening.

I have yet to send a PM to Trinket... do you think I should send her one now or wait a few days to see how things go?

Thanks again for everything you guys... you really are wonderfully helpful and an amazing support system. heartpump.gif

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Good that you got a tank for Martini - the 1gallon would have become a stress to keep clean :) Do you have it on a nice warmth? WIth Epson for the dropsy? And an airstone in there? I would keep her in there - keep a very close eye on the params.

I would PM Trinket, maybe she can shed some light into what could be causing this! I am not sure if maybe something else but bacteria in your tank could be causing all this. Maybe you can do a quick summary of everything starting from Mr.Wendell and all the treatments we have tried.

Hope they will be fine!

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Yes, I have the temp at 78 right now... I'm trying to get to 80 but my heater is a little stubborn. One mini turn of the dial and it's too hot or too cold. I also have 1/4 teaspoon epsom in the tank and an airstone... although it's a backup pump and not that strong but it still makes bubbles.

When I get home tonight and check on everyone, I'll post a big recap of everything. This topic is super long and even I'm starting to forget some things.

Thanks, Federica.

heartpump.gif

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Okie dokie. Everyone is about the same this evening.

Martini ate her Metro Meds and everyone else got a nice helping of peas. Tomorrow, I'll start Mooshu on the Metro Meds. Should I also give the MMs to Moose or hold off?

Here's the recap to the best of my abilities:

Mooshu, Moose, and Mr. Wendell were living happily in the 65 gallon.

In April, Mr. Wendell dropsied. I moved him to a 26 gallon QT, raised the heat to 80, added epsom, and fed Metro Meds for 14 days.

He was doing very well and seemed back to himself and was eventually reintroduced to the main tank.

When he was back with his buddies again, I adopted Martini and she went into QT.

It was around this time that I noticed Mooshu and Moose in the main tank were surface gasping off and on, yawning on occasion, and their poo was white/clear with the occasional bubble here and there. I started a prazi treatment to rule out flukes.

In June, Mr. Wendell dropsied again. Mr. Wendell went back into the 26 gallon QT. I raised the temp to 80, added epsom, and this time we put him on Jungle AP food. I also added prazi to his tank just in case. After about 5 days on the AP food, he started getting really floaty and flipped upside down. He kept flipping upside down almost daily but would right himself by the next morning. His scales were flat so I removed the epsom and he dropsied again. Added the epsom back into the tank and switched his medicated food back to the Metro Meds.

I moved Martini to the main tank around the end of June. About a week later (I think it was about a week) she dropsied. I took her out of the main tank and put her in her own 10 gallon QT with heat and epsom. She was pretty much back to herself within a few days. Epsom was removed and the temp was slowly lowered.

By the end of June, Mr. Wendell's scales were flat again. His head was still kind of pointed down and but up in the air.

It was around this time that I did a tank overhaul on the 65. I slowly removed the substrate I had in there, removed all real & fake plants, and cleaned out one of the two canister filters. I ended up putting in a fake bamboo plant to break up the current and left in a few glass marbles.

Also around the beginning of July Moose and Mooshu got popeye. Moose's fins were also looking tattered and red at the ends. I cleaned the second canister filter and found two old bags of carbon that I had forgotten about (big oops). I added epsom to the tank. Mooshu's eyes never really went back to normal.

Beginning of July, Mr. Wendell dropsied again. Although there was epsom in the tank, he stayed prickly for about 10 days. I slowly (very slowly) removed the epsom from his tank to see how he would do and at 50% epsom, his scales finally flattened. Continued to remove epsom until completely gone. Contuned the full course of Metro meds for 30 days.

Around the end of July, Mooshu dropsied. I started Mooshu and Moose on a course of Jungle AP food. She seemed to improve.

During this time, Mr. Wendell dropsied again. I finished out the 30 days of MMs and switched back to Jungle AP food. He seemed to improve.

Beginning of August, Martini dropsied. Heat, epsom, and Jungle AP for her in the 10 gallon QT.

In the 65 gallon, Mooshu was starting to bottom sit heavily and her eyes were about the same.

Mr. Wendell's scales flattened again.

As of a few days ago, Mooshu dropsied again. I played musical tanks and put the two dropsied fish (Mooshu and Martini) in the 65 gallon together and I moved Moose to the 10 gallon QT tank. Martini wasn't doing well in the big tank and I ended up moving her to her own 10 gallon QT and switched her medicated food from Jungle AP to Metro Meds.

Right now...

Moose's tail is still a little tattered looking and some of his fins still have a little red at the ends.

Martini is still dropsied on Metro Meds, heat at 78, and has epsom in her tank. She bottom sits a lot mainly with her nose resting on the bottom and her tail in the air.

Mooshu's scales are looking much better, but aren't flat yet. She is in the 65 with heat, epsom, and I'll start her on her course of MMs tomorrow (I gave her peas tonight after all that Jungle AP food).

Mr. Wendell is still plugging along in the 26 gallon. I still have the heat at 80. He finished his 14 day course of only Jungle AP food and now I'm going to do 2 weeks of the Jungle AP food (3 days on 4 days off).

I think this is the most confusing recap EVER. Ahhhh! I felt overwhelmed when I went through all the pages again realizing SO much has been happening.

OK... I'm going to bed. My brain is shutting off... can't think anymore.

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It actually wasn't that confusing and it will be helpful if Trinket ends up checking in on this thread. Have you Pmed her yet? If not I can ask her to check in again.

At this point if Moose is not dropsied I would not use any new med food. The tattered tail and red are not enough IMO to start a new medication but if he does dropsy I would try him on the MM since he has not had those. I would continue with the Jungle AP on Mr. Wendell since he is doing well now and I would do it exactly as you said. (2 more weeks, 3 days a week) I would also continue Martini and Mooshu on the MM's until they have had 14 days of them total. After that all the fish will have had both a course of AP and a course of MetroMeds correct? (Except Moose he will have only had the AP food, yes?). I am hoping that Martini and Mooshy will follow Mr. Wendells pattern and do well once both courses are complete. It is possible that the MetroMeds are covering some bacterial causes of the dropsy that the AP didn't cover. Meanwhile the AP covered some potential parasitic causes of the dropsy that the MM did not address (Because it contains prazi and levamisole). So maybe the back to back treatment of both will be sufficient.

Now MY recap - it still seems to me to be an issue with the main tank. Something in there causing the fish to ALL dropsy or have pop eye. Chronic dropsy and pop eye like this can usually be attributed to high organic load (lots of waste, hollow ornaments, gunk, water conditions that are not ideal) but I do believe you have taken care of all of those issues. Internal parasites are a possibility (seems there is a lot of that going around lately) but after a course of both Jungle AP and MM's, and the prazi in the water you should have taken care of that issue by now. However it can be stubborn. I myself had to do an 8 week AP course TWICE before I felt satisfied that things were under control. Mr. Wendell seems to be doing the best and so far is the one who has had BOTH medications as a full course. Which is why I do think that maybe the combination worked. (Not at the same time obviously)

You've adressed the potential high organic load by doing extra cleaning and water changes. Keep that up, it is KEY here. It is possible you are still seeing side effects from before. Problems do not always show up at the time and the fish could still be fighting off illness from a previous issue. If after the thorough cleaning, epsom, heat, MM and then Jungle u are still seeing recurring dropsy, this would lead me to think this is bacterial dropsy and a new course of medication is going to be needed. Something that has not been tried yet. Trinket WILL be the best person to help decide the next med if one is needed.. But it is kinda just like a shot in the dark. Trying something until it works. However, she can help make an educated guess at what be the next med to try.

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How are they? :)

I was thinking, do you have a place to put them temporarily while you clean the main tank? Sue would running some PP in the tank help? Is there a dose that is low enough to maintain the good bacteria in the filter yet clean everything?

I still think that there is a large chance that this was caused by the forgotten carbon. It happened to me (in my turtle tank thankfully) and it had gotten SO GROSS after 4 months YUCK!

It seems like the fish always got sick when you placed them in the main tank. Then the popeye after you cleaned up the gravel, did you do it with the fish in the tank?

How long have you owned this tank? Was it new?

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I still think that there is a large chance that this was caused by the forgotten carbon. It happened to me (in my turtle tank thankfully) and it had gotten SO GROSS after 4 months YUCK!

That is a possibility for sure!

PP is also an option but to dose WITH the fish has to be very very precise. I have done it before and it has had benefits.

I sent Imo a message to check this thread and read both of our "recaps". Let's see what she has to say.

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Hello hello.

I really hope I've addressed the issue. I just want everyone to be healthy and happy again.

At this point if Moose is not dropsied I would not use any new med food. The tattered tail and red are not enough IMO to start a new medication but if he does dropsy I would try him on the MM since he has not had those.

Sounds good. I'll keep an eye on him and see how he does. Since he's finished the 14 days on Jungle AP, should I continue for an additional 2 weeks (3 days on 4 days off) or stop that medicated food and start his regular diet again?

I was thinking, do you have a place to put them temporarily while you clean the main tank? Sue would running some PP in the tank help? Is there a dose that is low enough to maintain the good bacteria in the filter yet clean everything?

Technically, I have a few 15 gallon buckets that I use to pre-treat tap water before water changes.

I had thought about "nuking" the whole 65 gallon system and starting over from scratch, but I never pursued the idea.

If we get to a point where everyone thinks starting over is a good idea, I'll gladly do it to help out the fishies.

It seems like the fish always got sick when you placed them in the main tank. Then the popeye after you cleaned up the gravel, did you do it with the fish in the tank?

I always removed the goldies when I removed some gravel. After removing some gravel, I'd do a water change and vacuum what was left-over. Then I'd run the filter for a while before adding the goldies back in.

How long have you owned this tank? Was it new?

I purchased the tank beginning of January 2010 from a LFS brand new... but on sale. I did a fishless cycle and it was complete in February. Then I slowly added one goldie at a time and over 3 weeks, all 3 goldies were in the tank.

Fingers and fins crossed that we find the root of the problem or that the problem has already been resolved and we're just seeing residual effects and that everyone is on the road to recovery!

Lots of love and hugs.

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Wow Allie, the persistence of whatever is causing the dropsy/pop-eye is mind-boggling... Would repeated courses of medicated food and/or medication result in strains of resistant bacteria? Would UV sterilization be of any help if it's bacteria (I do understand that it's only helpful against water-borne bacteria, but that does eliminate one source)?

I wish you and your awesomely resilient fish the best, get well soon!

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Thanks Joshua :) Your kind words are appreciated.

I don't know the answer to your question about resistant strains of bacteria, but I sure do hope they don't get something like that!

I have a UV Sterilizer in the main tank, but it's off at the moment because I have prazi in the tank.

I really hope they all keep doing as amazingly well as they have been.

:heart

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I just wanted to drop buy and leave you some feelings of encouragement, your fish have really pulled through as of late, and I hope they only continue to get better :heart

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Sounds good. I'll keep an eye on him and see how he does. Since he's finished the 14 days on Jungle AP, should I continue for an additional 2 weeks (3 days on 4 days off) or stop that medicated food and start his regular diet again?

I don't have a definite answer on this that I can say 100% fact, but if it were me I would do the two more weeks for 3 days a week. I've done that method before on my fish when using Jungle AP for dropsy (you figure with dropsy you don't want them to NOT be getting meds for 4 days a week so that's why I do it every day for 14 days) but then I follow thru with the additional two weeks as a parasite treatment.

As for the bacteria and resistance, I know there are other members on this board that would be able to phrase this much better than I. But I agree that any time you use a medication you are possibly creating some sort of resistance to that medication and then you do run the risk of it being less effective when needed the most. It's even like that with something simple like salt. This is exactly why we always try so hard to encourage people on this board to really fill out the questions and really think before dosing with meds. And why we try to remind people that it is never a good idea to start one med, then stop the course, then start a new one. It can potentially hurt the fish being treated, create anti-biotic resistant bacteria (I believe I have seen the word superbugs before). So it's always smart to choose the correct medication and follow thru.

I got a little off track there, back to the point. I would say that is a risk, but at the same time, if something is working I would use it as needed (within reason). In general fish should be given very few medications/antibiotics in their lifetime. But there are always exceptions. I think dropsy tends to create a lot of those exceptions because dropsy seems to come back over and over again and sometimes you just HAVE no choice but to keep trying the Metromeds for example if they worked before. In time I'm sure the fish become resistant to it, and I am sure they become weak due to the stress and eventually they can no longer come back from the disease. But because dropsy can be so fatal, it's often worth the risk to use the medication.

At some point though, like I was saying, we have to stop and think "are these meds REALLY helping? Should something else be used?"... Right now I know Mr. Wendell has done MM's a few times. (But he is also responding) But the rest of the fish have just had one course of each is that correct? I would think that is okay. Again Trinket knows best. (Can I make that a quote at the bottom of my page?? LOL). But seriously, 99% of what I know came from her. And I probably only know 10% of what SHE knows! (She's just REALLY good! LOL) So I mean, if she can shed more light on what to try, or whether we should stop these same meds, I would totally follow her advice. Even as a "mod" I still turn to the other mods for advice all the time and am always trying to learn more and I think it would be good to get her opinion on all of this since it HAS been going on so long.

Now lets send some more good thoughts! How about ALL 4 fishbabies get better and stay better?! Come ON!

You're doing so good btw and you've put so much work into getting these fish better! They are very lucky that you have devoted so much to them!

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How are they?

I would assume the risk of making 'super-bugs' is reduced if you use the antibiotics full course. Just as the salt etc. You just have to make sure you have killed all. It is the reason why when WE are given antibiotics it is so important to do the full 2 weeks instead of stopping at 10days because you 'feel better'. The bacteria still alive at day 10 are stronger than those that died on day one. So those stronger bugs reproduce and give you the problem all over again BUT more aggressive and harder to treat. I assume it is the same for goldies. :)

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At this point if Moose is not dropsied I would not use any new med food. The tattered tail and red are not enough IMO to start a new medication but if he does dropsy I would try him on the MM since he has not had those.

I agree with CL. And Sue's advice is really the BEST here as she has dealt with this exact same thing at one point and miraculously saved several fish from terminal dropsy..once dropsied it is true any fish is going to be extra sensitive to ANYthing awry. It is hard work keeping fish that have dropsied, always a worry they will do so again at the slightest thing. But it is possible. Sue has done it and we have seen it here at kokos before.

I would caution against more meds generally although the two med foods you have used are not too harsh esp the MMs. If fresh. Must be fresh and new.

Fish that have dropsied do -almost always- have weak kidneys and eliminating medication via the kidneys puts an extra strain on them. Kidneys are responsible for eliminating fluids. Fluid build up causes the dropsy effect.

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Hello kokos friends.

I haven't been on the forum in almost a month. The goldies and I have been trying to plug along and get better, and I wish I had better news for an update, but I don't. Mr. Wendell didn't make it. I'm really upset and sad. He just stopped fighting and decided it was time to go. I'm really upset and sad. He was so special to me and such a wonderful friend. I think when I'm ready, I'll post in the obituaries section.

Martini is about the same. Still prickly but her spirits are high and she's eating, so that's a good sign.

Mooshu's scales are flight although she still looks ever so slightly bloated. She is also a piggy for food and really doesn't bottom sit that much. Her eyes have improved, but are still kind of buggy. I'm hoping they continue to get better.

Moose is doing well. I'm thankful he's doing the same.

I want to thank all of you for all of your advice, help and most of all, support. I have a tenancy to be a bit of a hermit when things get bad, and although I haven't been on the forum, I really appreciate you guys. It means a lot to me.

Lots of love and hugs :heart

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