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Dropsy And Distress


amoonklein

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Thanks, Edith :)

I'm trying not to get stressed out or upset... but it sure is difficult. Positive thoughts.

I'm sending you tons of postive thoughts. :bighug

I was hoping to find some info on keeping the epsom salt in for longer but I can't find any from a reliable source. How bad is Mr Wendell? Is he very swollen or just a little bit?

If he is very bad, since you had the epsom in for only 7 days and you were actually removing it with water changes during the last few days I wonder if you could maybe add some back in for the time being at least until Sue stops by? But I really wish a mod would confirm this though.

Do you still have the heat up in his tank?

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Sorry guys. Wasn't really online at all yesterday!

This is tricky. I feel like I am in the same boat as you guys because I've never dealt with a fish that keeps dropsying again after the epsom is removed!!!!

I'm actually going to have to write to the other mods and check on that one because I am not 100% sure.

However.. my instinct would tell me to add it back in until we hear from someone else. Yes, it shouldn't be used more than 7-8 days. But in Mr. Wendells case it seems like it is the only thing that is helping! In my opinion (and that's all it is, opinion not fact) it would seem like the benefits outweight the risk in this particular case.

I am SO upset that he keeps dropsying. It's very frustrating. I know this can happen and it can recurr but not normally this fast!!

Again, keep in mind Chase was dropsied over 30 days at one point in a row and he is alive right now (Today was one year and one month since he dropsied). So don't give up on Mr. Wendell.

Is he still eating well (aside from the floatiness that you are getting from the jungle). Did he float this badly on MetroMeds? Do you still have the metromeds? How many days total did he get them before?

Also in your case maybe we could add some metro to the water. There are various products. Seachem makes one in a little blue tube. Then there is Metro+. Both can be ordered online at Dr. Fosters or Big Als but there is a good chance you may find them in stores. Another option that you can almost def find in stores is API General Cure (the tablets). They contain metro and prazi. And prazi can't hurt. I think I would try one of these products in the water since his dropsy is soo bad..

I'll write to the other mods, and let you know as SOON as I hear about the epsom. In the meantime do what you feel comfortable with. But if it were me, I think I would add it back in...

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Hi ladies.

I really didn't want to go to bed last night... I just wanted to stay up and keep him company. It must have been a good thing that I did though, because I woke up this morning and he's right side up again :)

I literally did a happy jig and giggled.

Still prickly though.

I'm wondering if the water change I did helped a little... ? The prazi was removed in the water change though... I'll add it back in today.

Is he still eating well (aside from the floatiness that you are getting from the jungle). Did he float this badly on MetroMeds? Do you still have the metromeds? How many days total did he get them before?

Yes, he still has a very healthy appetite. Yesterday although he was buoyant, he tried so hard to eat his AP food and finally managed all by himself. I was pretty proud of him.

He was on the MMs for 14 days last time and didn't really float at all. I still have a fresh bunch handy.

Do you think I outta skip the AP food and start him on the MMs?

I can add the epsom back in tank this morning. If I hear that it should be removed, I'll happily do a water change.

Thank you so much... it is definitely frustrating. All of your help, support, and positive thoughts have helped. I just want to help him feel better and it's so hard to know how to do it. Boy I wish fish could talk!

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is he still alone in a hospital tank? had you already done Prazi on him?

you know my Doc.House I have a feeling is a bit sensitive to Prazi - that is why I am asking. maybe you overloaded him too quick after he recovered?

don't panic - maybe he just needed some clean water. continue the full course of Metro - I am sure that if it is something internal it works. :heart

do you still have a nice warm stable temp in there?

Edited by Captain Findus Goldfish
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He was on the MMs for 14 days last time and didn't really float at all. I still have a fresh bunch handy.

Do you think I outta skip the AP food and start him on the MMs?

That's kinda what I was thinking. It's normally not a good idea to start and stop meds. It can cause resistance but I think in this case it seemed like the MetroMeds were working much better than the AP Food. And you know, a lot of times I recommend doing the Metromeds for a full 30 days with dropsy. So I think I may switch back to the MetroMeds if I were you...

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is he still alone in a hospital tank? had you already done Prazi on him?

you know my Doc.House I have a feeling is a bit sensitive to Prazi - that is why I am asking. maybe you overloaded him too quick after he recovered?

don't panic - maybe he just needed some clean water. continue the full course of Metro - I am sure that if it is something internal it works.

do you still have a nice warm stable temp in there?

Yes, he's in his own hospital tank... a 26 gallon tank (but it only holds 23 gallons). He had started dose two of prazi on Thursday night, but when I did the water change last night, I removed it. I'll add it back it today to keep him on course.

His temp was at 78.9. The heater I have in there is really finicky... one tiny movement up and it's 81.5, one tiny movement down and it's 78.9. After some serious fiddling yesterday, I got it to stay at a stable 80.7. Finally! I'm never touching it again!

That's kinda what I was thinking. It's normally not a good idea to start and stop meds. It can cause resistance but I think in this case it seemed like the MetroMeds were working much better than the AP Food. And you know, a lot of times I recommend doing the Metromeds for a full 30 days with dropsy. So I think I may switch back to the MetroMeds if I were you...

Ok Sue, that sounds good to me. I'll feed him the MMs this morning and will do this for a full 30 days.

Also, I'm adding in the epsom now.

Unfortunately, I have to take off for a big part of the day. A friend is having her birthday party and we RSVP'd over two weeks ago. Is it weird that I'd rather stay home and keep an eye on Mr. Wendell than go to a fun birthday beach bash? Probably. I'm sure I'll have a great time, but I'll be super happy to get home later and see how he's doing.

Thank you, again and again and again!!!!

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Thanks, Federica :)

He's still prickly but is in very good spirits. He is greedily eating the MMs, the epsom is in the tank, and his prazi was re-added.

My fingers are crossed too.

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He's still prickly but is in very good spirits. He is greedily eating the MMs, the epsom is in the tank, and his prazi was re-added

That is the most important thing... Although it's scary to see them still pineconing, when the fish is eating well and behaving well that is the best sign that there is hope! I am so happy for that.

Got a response from Trinket on the epsom too. Yes it's okay to go longer than 8 days in a case like this when it is clearly helping and removing it causes the pineconing to return. Normally 8 days max but in this case she says it's okay. Keep an eye out for red marks because epsom can cause internal bleeding. She says that the dose we recommend here are koko's is pretty low compared to other sites so going longer shouldn't be an issue if it's really needed.

So I think you're all set.. Now. Let's hope Mr. Wendell pulls through again and STAYS DROPSY free!!! (At least for a while right?)

You're doing a really good job with him! Hang in there! :)

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Thanks, Sue. I'm so happy he's still his happy self and as long as he's fighting, I'm fighting for him. He looks soooo much better today. His scales are starting to go flat again... they aren't completely flat yet, but they're getting there.

Unfortunately, I have ANOTHER development.

Martini is pineconing. I just pulled her out of the main tank.

What is going on? I feel like every time we seem to be getting somewhere, something else happens. Ugh!

I feel like there is something going on in the main tank. Mr. Wendell dropsied after a few months in the main tank, he went into QT and once he was OK, he was reunited with his buddies in the main tank, then he dropsied again. Martini has been in the main tank less than a week and has already dropsied. Moose and Mooshu aren't really showing any symptoms, other than the surface piping and yawning.

My initial instinct is to give her an isolated QT... not to add her to Mr. Wendell's QT. This is best, yes?

I can get the 10 gallon QT ready for Martini (add 1/4 teaspoon epsom and get the heat up)

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Oh no.... do you have gravel? I know that when I had gravel I had a crazy attack of I don't know what and I lost half my fish... :(

Maybe a good tank cleaning and reordering is in order? I find it takes a while for the BADDIES to take hold of the gravel - mine happened 3months after i had set up my tank... :ignore

maybe remove and boil the gravel bit by bit if you want to keep it... otherwise PP? Don't have any experience with it tho...

good luck! Glad gorgeous Mr.Wendell is better!

PS.

My initial instinct is to give her an isolated QT... not to add her to Mr. Wendell's QT. This is best, yes?

yea exactly. so they can both heal in their own time. do what you did with Mr.Wendell... Not sure, maybe Sue will give her opinion - but maybe give a round of MetroMeds to the remaining guys in the main tank?

Edited by Captain Findus Goldfish
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I originally had black gravel in the tank, but switched it out last month for Eco Complete substrate. So far, the plants have been loving it and I have seen some new growth and it has been easier on the goldies too. They have a much better time foraging for food :) I'm hoping there aren't any baddies in the substrate :(

Martini is in her QT with epsom and the heat is at 80. She is definitely still acting like herself so that's good.

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I'm sorry about Martini. :( I also think your instincts are good about isolated qt.

So when you changed the gravel Mr Wendall was already sick? If the new substrate is in only since last month I doubt it could have that many baddies.

CFG suggestions of metromeds for everybody sounds like a good idea but let's see what Sue suggest.

I find it interesting that neither Moose and Mooshu are showing anything wrong. Are all the water params the same in the main tank and the qt tanks? (Ph; temp and nitrates)

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Hi Edith.

Yes, Mr. Wendell was already sick. I had black gravel as my substrate in the tank when he got sick the first time back in April. He was OK and back in the main tank around May 24th or so. I went back and checked the date and the Eco Complete substrate was in around June 5th. Mr. Wendell dropsied again June 16th.

Mooshu and Moose are still surface gasping, yawning off and on, and I am definitely still seeing stringy, white/clear poo with some bubbles here and there. I have them on prazi right now, but there hasn't been any change in their behavior. Mooshu does have spot in her tail that has had a tear in it and the end of the tear has what looks like blood. It's been a couple of weeks like this. I was hoping clean water would help it heal on it's own, but it doesn't seem to be doing that. Any suggestions are appreciated on how I can help it heal faster.

Water params in the main tank are: Ammonia 0, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 10, PH 7.8ish, Temp 80 (it's been warm in the house lately).

Also, I do want to mention Mooshu's eye again. I think I brought this up in my original post in this topic, but my attention was elsewhere with everything going on. Here's what I posted about her eye:

I think this all started with Mooshu. I thought she was showing signs of Popeye (this was a while ago) because there appeared to be fluid buildup in the corner of one of her eyes (I can provide pictures later). I went through the recommended treatment of Metro Meds and Epsom salt but didn't really see any improvement on that one section of the eye. I starting thinking that maybe she didn't even have pop eye, maybe it was just a growth. It's been almost a year since I originally treated her, and although that bit of eye still has what looks like a little sac of fluid, she has been doing just fine so I didn't re-treat.

Maybe this is a symptom of something? I'm gonna find some pics and I'll post them so you guys can see what I'm talking about.

Sorry guys, I know this is a lot of information and I feel like I'm just throwing it out there. It seems like there are so many factors to consider that I'm getting overwhelmed.

I appreciate everything you have been doing. Thank you so much for all of your help and support.

:heart

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Here are some pics that show her eye... Although it's hard to tell in some of the pics, it has a pinky/dark pink look to it:

IMG_0004.jpg

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You can kind of see the spot on her tail in this one

IMG_5585.jpg

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What a cutie! :wub:

I'm not sure what is going on but I'm willing to bet Sue will have some good suggestions. Especially as this might be coming from the main tank.

Did you ever use aquarium salt in the main tank? I know you're doing prazi but I've had succes treating torn fins with salt at 0.01%. But once again might as well wait to see what Sue thinks about it, she might have a better suggestion since you're dealing with more than one problem.

How are Mr Wendall and Martini doing now? :heart

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Wow is she pretty! I do see the spot on her eye.

I am inclined to think something is up in the main tank. My instinct is flukes, which you are treating for, but which can hide really deeply in substrate. How deep is the Eco Complete? Can you clean it really well...siphon it?

Have your nitrates raised at all since using it?

I'm sort of grasping at straws, but with two pineconing in there something seems strange for sure.

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UGH! Not more pineconing!!!!!!!!! :(

First of all, yes I think your idea for a seperate tank for Martini was the very best way to go. It's a pain I know, but I think you are better off doing things seperately like that!!! You have the epsom in, and if you are still seeing pineconing on Martini you can start her on the MetroMeds as well. Do 14-30 days total...

The fact that you are seeing dropsy in multiple fish, and pop eye in another suggests to me that there is a high build up of waste/organics etc in that tank still.. Very VERY possible from any type of gravel or substrate that is hard to clean... You really do have to be meticulous about cleaning that... You know, for a while I resisted the urge to get a barebottom tank, and finally the benefits for me seemed so worth it and now ALL of my tanks are bare bottom with a few scattered gems or river rocks.. It's SO much easier to clean. Even a thin layer of gravel can trap all the poop and gunk and lead to those bad bacteria. If you end up removing what is in there now, I would do it a little at a time so you don't upset the beneficial bacteria.

Another thing to think about is the decorations in the tank. Do you have hollow ornaments? They are known for causing dropsy and popeye. If so I would reconsider using them, or start cleaning them insanely well.

Time to once again check on the filter and possibly up your cleaning of it and the cartridges. You don't want to OVERdue it, but at the same time you want to make sure you are not getting a whole lot of gunk built up. Personally I rinse out my filter media at least once a month in old tank water and in some of my dirtier tanks I do it every 2 weeks.. Pay attention to places where it can be trapped, like in the intake tubes and crevices.

Definately continue use of prazi all around. And if you have never salted to 0.3% on the main tank I think that is a MUST! Salt is good for tail rot AND pop eye actually so that could help..

As for using MetroMeds on ALL the fish I am torn. The other two fish are swimming normal for the most part and eating normal correct? I mean, there is the surface piping and yawning which the prazi really should help with but other than that they seem normal? It's really not recommended to use any antibiotics on a fish that is coping with any illness or parasites they may have. They should generally be saved for a time when the fish is really in need of them. Bottom sitting, clamped fins, refusing to eat or dropsied. If they are used when not needed you run the risk of them not being effective when it is time to use them.

However! (Always gotta give two sides to the story) I have personal experience with dropsy popping up all over the place and eventually needing to do a round of Jungle AntiParasite Food on ALL my fish...

I think if you really wanna give something to the fish in the main tank, I would go with the Jungle AP food if it were me. At least with that you have the prazi included IN the food (as well as in the water). But.. part of me wonders if the best move would be to just continue with the prazi and work on extra maintence and see if that helps..

You know. Think about whether you have been good about water changes or if you have been slacking. You SEEM like you are totally on the ball with them, but think about it. Also go take a look right now at your tank and filter and substrate and all that.. Get a good feel for the amount of poop and waste and all that good stuff that's in there and be honest. Is it really messy and dirty? IN that case - I would focus mainly on the tank maintence and prazi. But if you take a look at you honestly think "no it really is clean and well maintained" and for the most part everything is in order, then in that case I might consider the AP food on the main tank as well.

Hope that helps. I know you prob wish I gave a definite yes or no. I always find it easier when someone says EXACTLY what to do, but only you know your fish and your routine.

In any case.. GOOD LUCK and let's get this taken care of.. I am very hopeful that they can pull through. Especially Mr. Wendell..

And I am sorry you have had so many issues. I know how frustrating that can be. :-(

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Hi laides wav.gif

First off, thank you so much for your input, advice, and support. It really means a lot to me.

Second, I would like to apologize in advance because I think this is going to be a long post.

Let's start with how the sickes are doing:

Martini

She's settled in QT with epsom and heat. I tried checking her out this morning to see if she's still pineconing, but she is pretty small and everytime I get close to the tank, she's gets all excited and does her little wiggle worm dance so it's really hard for me to tell. I can find out for sure tonight. If she's doing OK and isn't prickly, I'm going to hold off on the MMs and see how she does.

Mr. Wendell

He has turned into a float-a-saurus. I thought feeding the MMs would make a difference in his floatyness, but not so far. Yesterday, after eating the MMs, he got floaty after about an hour and was still floating upside down this morning. Usually I don't soak the MMs before I feed them, but I'm going to let them soak for a few minutes in tank water and see if that helps him out. I have a feeling it's just going to take a few days for him to bounce back and right himself. He's definitely less prickly today, but his scales aren't totally flat yet. I still have the epsom in there and the heat is at 80.

Mooshu, Moose and the Main tank

Before I had the 65 gallon and before Moose, Mooshu had the "popeye" issue. She was in the 26 gallon tank when she starting showing her fluid filled sac thingy behind her eye. This tank was bare bottom. I had a few marbles and some river rocks. That was it. No decorations. I thought it might have been popeye so I treated for popeye, but that didn't seem to help. I did salt her for a while, but it was only at the concentration of .01%. Since there wasn't any change in Mooshu, I thought that perhaps I was worrying too much and it was something as simple as headgrowth and so long as I kept up with water changes and made sure her params were good, and since it wasn't getting worse, it would be oK.

Then I got Moose in August '09. He was in the 10 gallon QT tank and once the koko's recommended QT process was complete, he was introduced to Mooshu in the 26 (btw, I checked and although it says it's a 26 gallon, it only holds 23 so maybe I should just start calling it a 23 gallon).

I got Mr. Wendell in December 2009 and he went through his QT process.

I knew I wouldn't be able to put them all in the 23 gallon, so I decided to start shopping around for an upgrade. I found the 65 gallon in January and decided that I wanted a clean start so I did a fishless cycle. I put in black gravel, marbles, and some river rocks. I do have a hollow ornament, but to avoid any nasty water building up in there, I put an airstone inside so there are bubbles coming out of it. When it was ready in February, I started introducing one fish at a time.

So that's how they all ended up in the 65 (not sure if me babbling about all that was helpful).

Now for the tank maintenance part. I have not always been spot on with water changes and maintenance.

I have had trouble with my knee ever since 2004. My husband and I were in a car accident (hit by a drunk driver) and I suffered a compound fracture of my right patella. I won't go into all the details, but I have officially had three surgeries on my knee. The last one was in the beginning of May because I was in pain daily. They did an arthroscopic surgery to fix a small tear in my meniscus, I had a lot of scar tissue buildup behind the kneecap that had started to grow on the meniscus, and they removed floating cartilige (think of having pebbles in your shoe). I'm definitely feeling improvement... I'm hoping to be 100% soon.

I'm not using this as an excuse, but I'm telling you guys this because I want to be honest and let you know that some weeks I'd be on top of tank maintenance, and others, I'd slack off.

Although I do water changes ritually 50% every week with gravel vacs now, I'm sure that my prior laziness has probably contributed to the problems my goldies are having.

I have two cansiter filters so I'll alternate cleaning them so the good bbs aren't affected.

I've picked up a few items over the past month which have already helped to make water changes, etc. easier. I've invested in a python-like syphon which makes prepping water and removing water soooo much easier. I also picked up a water pump so I can pump the pretreated water into the tank without having to lug buckets.

Also, my husband and I just ordered a UV sterilizer as an early birthday present for me (well, for the fish). I'm hoping in addition to tank maintenance and making sure the water params are OK, the UV sterilizer should hopefully help to keep the baddies out of the tank.

Ideally I'd like to keep the substrate in the tank, but if you guys think it will be benificial to remove it, I will totally do that. Maybe I can put in back in at some point in the future, but ultimately, I want my goldies to be healthy.

Gosh, it seems like i've written a novel.

Thanks for ready and for offering any advice/suggestions.

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oh the little dear has popeye... :doh11: I am so sorry! your fish are all so darn cute!!!

hope your knee feels better - youch!

it is a good thing the way you are treating it - the only time one of my fish got popeye it was also linked with dropsy.

I am sorry to say but I think the issue MIGHT just be in the substrate..... (SORRY) I have tried that type in a plant pot I had in my betta tank a few days later i noticed the pot smelled bad - somehow the roots were rotting!

I would really do a large cleaning - and even consider going bare bottom with the plants in pots?! :ignore

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I have had plants rot, too but in pots with stones. So I do think it is worth checking the roots of your plants. I am leaning towards what Sue suggested. AP food for everyone and really stepping up your maintance process. I think you will find that this combined with the UV will go a long way towards healthy fish.

I meant to say that I am so sorry about your new and the terrible accident. What an awful experience. I have a bad knee too and I know how debilitating that kind of pain can be.

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Thanks, Federica and Amy :)

I am sorry to say but I think the issue MIGHT just be in the substrate..... (SORRY) I have tried that type in a plant pot I had in my betta tank a few days later i noticed the pot smelled bad - somehow the roots were rotting!
I have had plants rot, too but in pots with stones. So I do think it is worth checking the roots of your plants. I am leaning towards what Sue suggested. AP food for everyone and really stepping up your maintance process. I think you will find that this combined with the UV will go a long way towards healthy fish

The plants love it. No rotting roots and I've already seen some new growth; however, I definitely think there are probably some baddies living in the Eco Complete. It's gotta be a contributor here... if the main tank does have flukes (and I'm sure they do), it will pretty close to impossible to get rid of them permanently with the substrate in there. As much as I like the stuff, I'm going to start removing it tomorrow... In small batches of course. I will be saving the stuff, though. Perhaps one day I can put it back in.

I just reread my reaaaaalllly long post from earlier today. I kinda rambled on and on. Sorry about that. I was at work and the temperature kept rising while I was typing it. By the time it got to 89.5, I was a little delirious. Needless to say, we were sent home early.

I did want mention one more thing about the main tank. The crew only gets fed once a day, no more than they can eat in 2-3 minutes. They are messy for sure, but there is rarely every food leftover and there isn't a lot of waste in the tank when I do water changes. I'm not saying the tank is spotless, but it isn't really messy or dirty. That being said, I still have slacked off on occasion and I do need to do a super cleaning.

I think until everyone's issues have been resolved and they have been healthy and disease free for a while, I'm doing to slowly remove the substrate and will also be removing the hollow ornament. I'm sure Sue will agree that this will be a good thing ;)

One last thing... a quick update:

Martini's scales are pretty much flat :) Woo hoo. I'm so proud of her. No help from antibiotics either, she did it all by herself (well, almost). I'm going to keep the epsom in tonight and if she's still on the up and up tomorrow, I'll do a water change to start removing it. Should I also start lowing the heat tomorrow as well?

Mr. Wendell was still a flotation device when I got home, so I did a water change. He seems to be doing a better job of staying upright although his head is pointed down most of the time (kinda like he's standing on his head).

Anywho, that the update. Geez, my posts sure are long.

Thanks again. Many many hugs!

Edited by amoonklein
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It does sound like things are getting better...all good news! I think it is smart to remove the substrate and the hollow ornament. I was really reluctant to take out most of my gravel, but it really has helped. And I am thinking of getting rid of my driftwood. I love it, but I know that Goldfish Connection has mentioned that driftwood can soak up a lot of baddies.

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You need to add a pic of Martini to your sig! I keep glancing down looking for him! :rofl

as for Mr.Wendell - I was reading the 'fancy goldfish' book today (just got it yesterday in the mail! :yeah: ) - anyways it says that fish with their bum in the air can mean either bacterial infection as well as an early sign of swimbladder issue... So for one thing is it def good to give him the antibiotics! it also says it can be caused by high nitrates but I highly doubt that is your case....

fingers crossed!

-for the office you have to get one of those portable fans they give you in disneyland!!! with the water squirter!!!!! :rofl:rofl:rofl

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