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Phoenix Spawning!


daryl

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So, after three years,almost , I am finally going to get my Phoenix to cross back to the blue parent. Only one parent left. I only kept a few of the green fry and only one original blue remains, but they are all nice fish. I hope I have a male but from all the chasing going on, I expect I do. This cross should give me at least 50% blue. It is a nice solid line, too I had no dorsals and really almost NO culls first round. I gave away hundreds of Phoenixto ponds and such. They have returned to subsequent shows and done nicely, too I would like to have this blue line up and working again.

Spawning at night. What is this world coming to! There is a big storm headi g in, so I guess it figures. I would have liked to transfer the fry out, but I had no spawning grass in there until I got home from work and there are already 1000s of eggs on the tank floor. I guess I leave them there and pull the parents in the morning.

I was just deciding that I did not want to mess with fry this year. Now I hope that they ARE viable.

Yea!

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I usually give my friends first choice.... and then with "known" breeds, I have traded/sold/given the leftovers to local fish shops. However, last round of Phoenix, the fish shop did not know what a Phoenix was - and did not want them. I ended up dropping the last 100 or so in a friend's large pond.

I almost always give away any fry I do not wish to keep (and some that I would - unless the person is VERY special! ;) ) They are watched, culled and grown until they are of a size that I can begin to see what I do and do not want - and sorted as such.

This line does not decolor for at least a year..... so it is tough to pass off a guaranteed blue at a young age. I ended up giving away all the blues from the spawn last time - and ended up with all green! There must have been something about the bodies or tails that I was seeing and culling/selecting for.... I cannot say what it was, but I managed to cull and give away EVERY SINGLE blue fry I had! :rolleyes: I hope to manage to keep some blues this time around.

Once again, I find myself not believing that they are really fertilizing the eggs. The male(s) are soooooooo laid back. Lazy males. She is still dropping this morning - so I am going to leave them in there for most of the morning. I have to go to the farm this afternoon - and will not be back until night. I have to decide if I leave them there or not. The water quality is "less than"....

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I have definately been fooled before - both good and bad, but this does NOT look like a very successful spawn. I have had ones that looked like NOTHING... but I got several thousand fry from them. And I have had ones that looked GREAT, but I only got a dozen or two. This one........ I am not holding my breath over it. I have hopes, though.

The female is done for the day. I have pulled them from the breeding tank. I would have prefered to have had breeding grass in the tank and have pulled that to a more easily changed and controled tank, but the eggs are mostly on the glass so that is a no-go.

I have changed out the water, dropped it to 7 inches high, set up a sponge bubbler (seeded sponge I keep for this type of thing) and added a heater. The tank is at 68F. We shall see in 3-4 days if anything is fertile!

Here is a shot of the parents. The green one with the arrow is the female, the big blue is the original parent. The other is a smaller female.

post-27-126901704899_thumb.jpg

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The tank has been cleaned and changed. The adults have been moved out to a new "home". The water level is dropped to 8 inches (5-6 is better, but I wish the sponge filter to function and it will not in this case unless the water is more like 8), a heater has been added and the temp raised to 20C. I have added Methlene Blue to the water to prevent fungus.

Now all I do is wait and hope..... Monday, sometime, I should have an answer.....

post-27-126910973205_thumb.jpg

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Yes I want to know too! :) Daryl those fish are some of the most beautiful I have seen! Could I trouble you for more pics? :D How old are they, and how did you get the blue male's fins to grow so nice? Very awesome fish.

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Uh.... the blue is maybe 4 or 5.... actually, perhaps 6 because it was at least a year when I got it. I had a trio. The tails are Phoenix tails - they are genetically designed to grow that way - and that size. That is one of the features that defined a "Phoenix"..... it needs a tail that is at least 2/3 the length of the body - preferably twice.....

The greens are 3 years or so. They were my fry from a spawning from the original blues and one green I bought.

I would have fully expected to see fry sometime yesterday. There were so few eggs. I am used to 1000-10000. I think, at most I had 50-100....

Late yesterday, the eggs started "disappearing". That is usually a sign that they have hatched. But I see no fry.

Now - realize that I have extremely BAD eyesight. I do not see small things very well. The tank is FULL of breeding grass - I have found that floating it upside down enables eggs on it to hatch and have a place to hold on until they can make it to the surface. The floating grass also holds the babies up within an inch or two of the surface - making it even easier.

This said - I would have thought I would have seen a FEW fry hanging on the glass. SOMETHING. But I see nothing.

I cannot scrape an egg out to look at it under the microscope without scarificing it. I really do not like doing that. So.... I do not know if these were fertile or not...... ??????????

I will continue to wait a bit and watch. I do not know what is in there. But if something hatched, I need to be getting the brine shrimp bubbling.....

:idont

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I am getting REALLY tired of my posts disappearing after I hit "Post"!!!!!!!!! This is another one.... Grrrrrrrrr.....

ANYWAY....

I would have expected the fry to hatch on Monday - Tuesday, perhaps. Now that it was mid-day, Wednesday, I called over a neighbor's daughter (with good eyesight) and we went through the tank. We found approximately 50 fry - but all were either dead or dying - very malformed and sad looking.

I do not know what went wrong. The temps were right. The pH, parameters, currents, etc. were all right as I know how to make them. I even did a micron sceening to see if there might have been some microscopic parasites eating or otherwise destroying the fry, but nothing was found. I followed every piece of knowledge I have on this topic and.... well, something else was not right. I do not know what - but there was something I missed.

I wish it had worked out differntly. I REALLY wish that. BUt, it is not to be this spring - at least not this time. I failed to adjust something, but I do not know what - perhaps nothing I have control over, perhaps something I goofed on.... :unsure::idont

Sigh. So... no Phoenix fry this time around. Perhaps I shall see if I can collect any of my previous fry that have been living in various ponds the past few years. Maybe additional DNA would help???

:idont

Such is life.....

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Sorry you lost them Daryl :( Don't they spawn more than once?

With regards to posts disappearing, if you click 'back' on your browser you can submit again, it should still have your text in it and it should go through as normal.

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Oh what a bummer Daryl! :( I agree with Devilduck's question, do you think that they will spawn again this season still? I thought they usually spawned a few times. It sounds like a problem that was out of your control, perhaps new DNA would help like you said. Hoping for better luck next time :hug

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I'm really sorry about the fry. I think we were all looking forward to following them from fryhood on.

So, the eggs were technically viable. At least you can rule out not being fertilized as the problem. I wonder why the spawn was so small though?

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I ahve been mulling this over for a few days, now. More, the last few hours.

I have some possible contributors to the problem. They may or may not be the answer - or any combination may be the answer.... or none.

FIrst - this line matures EXTREMELY slowly. The fry do not even decolor until they are over a year old - 14 months being the norm. They also do not seem to have that "first season" spawning that every fry seems to have if it is at all healthy. Many things can cause a fish not to spawn in future years - but a fry, given any sort of health, will ALWAYS spawn in the first spring following hatch. It seems to be built in to the body to do this.

Second - because of some medical issues in my family, I was forced to out-place all my fish for nearly 3 months while I traveled. They stayed in all sorts of places - some cold, some not, some tanks, some not, some diseased, some not. Many died during that time. I had no control I only got back 6 of my 11 BubbbleEye, 3 of my 9 Phoenix, etc. The others died. These have not necessarily completed a full fall prep for spring spawning. I started them out well on protiens, but really have no idea about the water, food or temps they were kept at during my absence.

Third - this is VERY early in the year for a fish to be spawning - at least in the way I typically like it to go. Normally, I have them go off at the end of April to mid May. The male was showing NO breeding stars as of yet, the females were not "fat" or gravid with eggs. This appeared, in hindsight, to be a "misfire" - or soemthing.... probably set off by the STRONG thunderstorms and such we were having. IT was an odd set of storms ....so who knows. Perhaps the egg drop was too early - the eggs not being fully formed. Perhaps the male was not ready and was "shooting" mostly blanks....??????

Finally - These fish came back to me loaded with flukes and lice. They were in pretty bad shape - and have had to endure several treatments to clean them up. They were not in consistantly colder water for egg setting - with ich, they were warmed up, etc. I may have mixed them all up for seasons... or even destroyed that which was possible.

I do not know if they will do it again, later. Perhaps. IF they do, I shall be watching. I hope to be able to set them up for success next year, but that is a year away.... so who knows. I think I will definately see if I can look around and find some more Phoenix, perhaps from this line, to add back in. Maybe some of my fry back from friends, maybe some that were from the line I was originally given.... I will see.

I have hopes. Not all is lost - just lost in this particular occurance. IT is sad - but is also not all that uncommon. Sigh. :(

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