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Bandit Flipping Over


caitie

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Good question.

Jungle anti-parasite food (as oppose to anti-bacterial) does not contain a concoction of antibiotics, which MUST be used for the full course. AP contains Metro. Metro is actually a combination 'antibiotic'- an antipro-tozoal and an antibacterial so some say it isnt even an antibiotic..but definitions and borderlines are hazy.

I would continue to repeat -perhaps just one more time. Just in case and to avoid the very small chance of resistance.

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:thanks Imo, where would we be without your incredible knowledge of all these meds? I for one would be totally lost. :heart Hopefully next time I update on Bandit he'll be swimming normally. On a positive note even if he is still flipping he hasn't lost weight, I think he even got a little bit fatter. :)
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I just wanted to post a quick update on Bandit. He was doing fine these past couple of days. I didn't see him flipping over. Then tonight when I turned on his light he was swimming erratically, spinning around, and then he would float to the top belly up. The bottom of his tank had about 10 little worms squirming around, and his poop was white and stringy. His belly also looks swollen. How is it possible for him to pass so many worms, is that normal? He is due to start his 3rd round of Jungle antiparasite tomorrow night so I guess I'll have to just wait and see what happens. But he doesn't look very comfortable tonight, and I just wish I could do something to help him out a little. :unsure:

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Im so sorry to hear that caitie :(. But it does re-inforce the theory that the worms are encysted inside him (and putting pressure on the swimbladder to cause the floatiness) As the cysts pop and the worms are expelled with the help of the med food he should get less floaty...but I have to say getting internal worm cysts treated truly effectively is hard and not always completely possible as the very nature of cysts protects the young larvae. It is something he may need- the de-worming- on a more regular basis to keep the worm numbers low. I do think you are doing your best for him. Does he eat well? Have appetite?

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You really are a fantastic fish mum Edith bighug.gif I'm not sure I wouldn't have just packed it in by now. If I ever get resurrected I hope it's as a goldfish in Montreal so you can take care of me! :D

Just wondering, more aimed at Trinket, would Flubendazole help at all? It's the active ingredient in a water-based treatment we get in the UK by Kusuri called Wormer Plus, aimed at discus keepers as apparently discus are very very prone to worms. I know you said Prazi wouldn't help but I wondered if a specific de-wormer might. It seems to be pretty mild too, I've never had any cycle crashes using it and the fish don't behave any differently (I've only had to use it as a QT preventative and I've not noticed any sudden bottom sitting or flicking or anything after adding it), my java ferns don't seem to like it much but plants are odd around meds anyway and there aren't any in Bandit's tank. Just a thought.

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but I have to say getting internal worm cysts treated truly effectively is hard and not always completely possible as the very nature of cysts protects the young larvae. It is something he may need- the de-worming- on a more regular basis to keep the worm numbers low. I do think you are doing your best for him. Does he eat well? Have appetite?

He has a very big appetite. And he eats everything I give him he isn't picky at all. :) I do have to ask your opinion on one thing, do you think he is suffering during all of this? I don't want to think about this because I've grown very attached to Bandit through out this whole ordeal, but I don't want to let him suffer needlessly or selfishly. :( If he doesn't suffer and it is only a question of ongoing treatment that's okay I can deal with that. I just don't know what the signs would be if he is suffering? Once again I thank you for all your wonderful help Imo. :heart

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You really are a fantastic fish mum Edith bighug.gif I'm not sure I wouldn't have just packed it in by now. If I ever get resurrected I hope it's as a goldfish in Montreal so you can take care of me! :D

Thanks Sarah :heart:heart I guess we were posting at the same time. You always seem to say the right thing at the right time! :)

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but I have to say getting internal worm cysts treated truly effectively is hard and not always completely possible as the very nature of cysts protects the young larvae. It is something he may need- the de-worming- on a more regular basis to keep the worm numbers low. I do think you are doing your best for him. Does he eat well? Have appetite?

He has a very big appetite. And he eats everything I give him he isn't picky at all. :) I do have to ask your opinion on one thing, do you think he is suffering during all of this? I don't want to think about this because I've grown very attached to Bandit through out this whole ordeal, but I don't want to let him suffer needlessly or selfishly. :( If he doesn't suffer and it is only a question of ongoing treatment that's okay I can deal with that. I just don't know what the signs would be if he is suffering? Once again I thank you for all your wonderful help Imo. :heart

Dear Bandit's mom :heart :heart :heart. He really couldn't have a better owner. Most owners would have given up on him, been disgusted, ended it, all kinds of horrible things that you never once considered. I really respect your selfless devotion fo Bandit who has no voice. I think fish still have quality of life when they have appetite (see bold :) )and I also believe they do not feel pain in the same way as us -and that the pain they do feel is reflected in bottom sitting plus not eating, both of which he is not doing. :)

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Thanks so much Imo. :heart I'm glad you don't think he is suffering. That was my one big worry. All of the other fish I had who died always did so very suddenly, but Bandit is such a little fighter. My parents have started to call him the duracell bunny because every time I say I think this is it, he bounces back. :) So I will just continue his treatment and hope for the best. Thanks again. :flowers

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You really are a fantastic fish mum Edith bighug.gif I'm not sure I wouldn't have just packed it in by now. If I ever get resurrected I hope it's as a goldfish in Montreal so you can take care of me! biggrin.gif

Just wondering, more aimed at Trinket, would Flubendazole help at all? It's the active ingredient in a water-based treatment we get in the UK by Kusuri called Wormer Plus, aimed at discus keepers as apparently discus are very very prone to worms. I know you said Prazi wouldn't help but I wondered if a specific de-wormer might. It seems to be pretty mild too, I've never had any cycle crashes using it and the fish don't behave any differently (I've only had to use it as a QT preventative and I've not noticed any sudden bottom sitting or flicking or anything after adding it), my java ferns don't seem to like it much but plants are odd around meds anyway and there aren't any in Bandit's tank. Just a thought.

Was Trinket able to answer this? Sarah, Flubendazole is broad range. It will definitely help with nematodes, cestodes and even flukes. Yes, discus are SO prone to worms but most of the issues are nematodes and cestodes although occasionally, hexamit itself becomes involved especially with the wrong food choice given to them. Most discus keepers love to feed them live and meaty foods so they likely contract the worms from those things.

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I just saw your response Lupin. Does this mean this Flubendazole would help in Bandit's case? Right now he is back to normal. (His normal anyway :rolleyes: ) He just finished his third week of Jungle AP and he hasn't passed any worms in the last day or so. He isn't floating or flipping right now and his tummy which was very swollen on friday is now back to normal. I guess now it is just a question of waiting to see if he still has some worms. By the way just wanted to say his tail is growing really well, I think it may end up looking even better than before. :)

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I mentioned the Flubendazole in a PM to Trinket, Edith. I think she must have seen the first part of my post was offering encouragement and glossed over the rest, she is a busy bee after all! Hopefully she'll be able to give you a yes or no on that one, I just thought I'd mention it because I saw it when sorting through my fish stuff.

Glad to hear Bandit's tail is growing back, hopefully he'll be able to swim stronger soon too :)

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Thanks for your interest Sarah. :heart Actually right now I think the Jungle Ap food seems to be doing good. Bandit's swimming is like a roller coaster, he does well for a couple days and then he loses control again. Last night he almost gave a heart attack, he was swimming on his side at the bottom. So right now he floats when at the top, swims fine in the middle of the tank, and scoots around the bottom on his side. Who knows what that means? He is such a little weirdo. :D

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caitie and sarah- sorry to miss the question. I tend to go with less meds as the answer always if possible and would advice that if you can get the worms out of the water and feed only what Bandit eats, removing the rest, keep the tank bottom bare (with the gravel in a hose or at least regularly rinsed out) and do a few courses of the AP you may be okay.

You could however order the de-wormer water meds (and flubendazole is effective and broad range as said) to have at hand to use immediately if matters get out of control in the future.

Right now, seems you are doing well and so is Bandit. So the plan right now and what you are doing must be a good one!

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caitie and sarah- sorry to miss the question.

That's okay Imo,it's easy to understand with all the time you spend helping everybody here once in a while little things get missed. No harm done. :)

I tend to go with less meds as the answer always if possible and would advice that if you can get the worms out of the water and feed only what Bandit eats, removing the rest, keep the tank bottom bare (with the gravel in a hose or at least regularly rinsed out) and do a few courses of the AP you may be okay.

I agree, right now his tank is totally bare except for a few large river rocks holding down his terracotta pot. And he basically leaves no food behind. :D I will go on like this since he is doing well right now.

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I have another quick question, Imo. Bandit finished his AP food last Friday but this morning he is all swollen again and back to floating on his back and not being able to swim properly. :( Should I give him a 5th week of Ap food or just wait? He was still passing little worms 2 days ago.

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In January he had 4 weeks of Ap food (3 days of Ap /4 day of gel food a week)Then from mid february to mid march he had another 4 weeks of Ap again 3days ap/ 4 days gel food a week.

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It is absolutely fine to continue feeding courses of AP food as long as he has worms. I thought 5 courses (you have done 2) would have eliminated them. The larvae must be totally protected in there, poor bandit. What a trouper.

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Thanks Imo. :heart Yeah he is a trouper alright. Even upside down he manages to greet me in the morning! :) So far he seems to pass worms regularly every week. Usually two days after he finishes his AP food for the week. Hopefully the poor little guy will soon be free of these worms. :heart

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Bandit has developped a funny looking lump on one side of his butt. :o It is a little bit red and when he isn't floating he seems to swim on that side on the floor of the tank.This picture was taken last night, today the lump is a little bit redder. Any idea what this might be? :idont

DSCF5286.jpg

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caitie, Im fairly sure this is another encysted worm lump. If its getting larger and red maybe we need to use some flubendazole in the water as well. I've been wary of suggesting it as he seemed to be doing so well without- and that medication wrecks a cycle. What do you think?

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I was afraid that was the problem. Darn he was doing so well. Do you think I could wait a little bit to see if this will also pass with the AP food or is it better to start the meds right away? I haven't been able to find it anywhere around here but maybe I can order some online.

I've just been in to check on him, the lump is a little smaller and I found two worms in the tank that were quite a bit bigger than the tiny ones I usually find. Could they have been causing the lump do you think?

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This morning he is back to swimming almost normally, I didn't see him float belly up for at least a few hours. The lump is still there but it doesn't seem as big, and it hasn't gotten redder. I think if you agree Imo that I might wait before I use the flubendazole. I'm not sure that he is up to any other meds in his water, especially since you say it will mess up his cycle. I will try to find some flubendazole but if I can't is there anything else I could use?

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