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caitie

Bandit Flipping Over

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[*]Test Results for the Following:

[*]Ammonia Level? 0

[*]Nitrite Level? 0

[*]Nitrate level? -5

[*]Ph Level, Tank (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)? 8.0

[*]Ph Level, Tap (If possible, KH, GH and chloramines)? 8.0

[*]Brand of test-kit used and whether strips or drops? Nutrafin and Api drops

[*]Water temperature? 76

[*]Tank size (how many gals.) and how long has it been running? 5 gallons running 2 yrs (Small but it is only qt tank)

[*]What is the name and size of the filter(s)? Aquaclear 20

[*]How often do you change the water and how much? 80% every 2 days

[*]How many fish in the tank and their size? 1 fantail under 2 inches

[*]What kind of water additives or conditioners? Aqua plus

[*]What do you feed your fish and how often? Homemade gel food (baby jars of peas; green beans; squash; sardines; vitamin C and acidophilus) twice a day

[*]Any new fish added to the tank? No

[*]Any medications added to the tank? No

[*]Any unusual findings on the fish such as "grains of salt," bloody streaks, frayed fins or fungus? No

[*]Any unusual behavior like staying at the bottom, not eating, etc.? He is floating belly up and if he struggles he can swim around.

Bandit was treated for many things since november, flukes; tail rot; bacterial infection and internal worms. He has been doing very well for the last few weeks even if he had to go through a huge cycle bump because of the antibiotics.

For the last few days I noticed he has started floating at the top again. This is a long time thing, no matter what I feed. :unsure: So I did the usual routine fasted for 2 days and fed him some peas. But this morning I found him floating belly up, I thought he was dead, but then he struggled for a bit and righted himself. He has to really struggle to swim around and as soon as he stops swimming he floats to the top and flips over. I don't really think he is constipated because his tank is now barebottom and I can see his mess every day and have to clean it up. :rolleyes: I'm just wondering if there is something I should do for him? He seem fine otherwise, dorsal fin is up and his appetite is still good. As usual I appreciate any advice. :)

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Well Bandit is not better today, he has more trouble swimming. He has a tendency to spiral when he swims. I had to stop the bubbler and reduce the filter power because he was getting pulled towards the filter intake. Today his poop looked like empty casings? If that is possible? I'm really worried that something is happening to him again. I've included a short video of him swimming to show you what I mean.

th_banditswimming_0001.jpg

Edited by caitie

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Poor little guy, I don't know what could be wrong if you've been keeping the water changed and fasted him. I do know that sometimes bacterial infections can cause swim bladders to deflate, and while the fish will have recovered from the infection and are otherwise healthy, the fish will have floating issues. I had a fish that survived the bacterial infection but had swim bladder issues for the rest of his life he laid on his side in the QT tank, I eventually had to put him down. Hopefully someone can come along with more advice and a solution! :) Meanwhile, I have my fingers crossed.

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Thanks Maceo. I'm worried because I'm not sure if it is his infection coming back or if he still has worms. When I treated him with the jungle antiparasite food he passed a couple of worms. And then he was doing so well, floating a bit after feeding but nothing out of the ordinary. And since his tail has grown back he was controlling his swimming so much better. Hopefully someone will know what is going on.

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I'm a little lost here guys. Bandit pretty much spent the whole night belly up at the top of the tank. Since he's had so many meds since he first got sick I don't know what to do to help him. Anyone have any ideas???

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I wish I could help. I just wanted to offer some support. Poor little guy looks unhappy.

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Thanks for the support it really does help. I have no idea what he is up to now. But as you said he isn't happy :ill I just came home and looked in on him and he was just floating on his back letting the current move him around. :(

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So sad to see after all his wonderful improvement.

I should not add more meds and see if he can right himself. Is he eating at all?

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Yes he is eating. I fasted for two days and fed peas, it didn't change anything. Now he is back to his gel food which has acidophilus and vitamin C. He isn't constipated but I notice some poop is normal food colored and some is just empty casings. I was wondering if he maybe still had some worms although he passed about four worms that I saw when he was on the Jungle antiparasite food. Do you think that would have him flipping over, Imo?

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Yes its possible. Worms make little cysts to breed inside the fish and these (especially in a small fish) can press up against the swimbladder or compress certain organs and vessels needed for balance/gas exchange that controls balance.

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Do you think I should try another round of Jungle anti parasite food or prazi? He had the Jungle Ap 3 day a week for all of January. And he was doing really well on it, floaty but not flipped over. But then I don't want to over medicate him. I appreciate your help once again Imo. It's hard to believe such a small fish could have so many problems.

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Actually the smaller the fish usually the more problems disease wise. A very expert fish breeder once told me "Get a fish to 5 years and you are home and dry" (re-worry about disease). A fish has to build up immunity like a person, cf. children catch more colds etc and as they age get fewer..

I think another course of Jungle AP is in order here since Bandit still has appetite. It did work before and if some of the worms have embedded then you def. need to get those out. A fish can cope with a small load of worms but gets floaty when there are many or, possibly here, if those breeding cysts are causing pressure on vital organs.

No water meds, pristene water is still #1 best thing you can do :)

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Great Imo. I'll get him on the Jungle AP tonight. I'll keep you posted. :)

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Hopefully someone will read this and be able to help me identify what I am seeing in Bandit's tank. While I was feeding him his antiparasite food tonight I was staring at the back wall of his tank and I saw about 10 mini white worms crawling around the wall. :blink: These were really tiny but they were crawling all over the back wall. Last time he passed worms they were bigger and already dead or very weak but these are very active.I thought about planaria but the tank has no gravel and gets a 80% wc every one or two days. I'm going to try and get them out with a turkey baster but they are so darn small. Should I do any thing else? :unsure:

I tried to get a picture but they are showing up, I'm terrible with a camera.

Edited by caitie

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I'm finding more of these tiny little worms in his tank, I try to siphon them out when I see them but I was wondering if I should be adding some salt or prazi in the water? These worms are not dead they crawl around the tank. I'm removing between two or three every day. By the way he is still floating most of the time but he doesn't flip over quite as much. :)

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Yikes Edith, more worms?! Yuck!!!

Sorry to hear Bandit is giving you even more trouble, he really is a tinker isn't he! He obviously just loves the attention <_< Hopefully the little worms are expulsions of baby worms or something...might be worth rinsing the filter media too...or maybe taking the filter out and just doing daily water changes? Don't know if that's a good call or not but I know I wouldn't want them in my filter media. Just a thought.

Hope you get this new trouble sorted soon (and your little fishie doesn't provide any more problems!!!) :hug

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Thanks Sarah. I didn't even think about the filter! Yuck!!! And I just finally got the cycle back too. :( I guess I clean it out tonight! The thing is that Bandit is like a little Hoover and he gobbles up everything on the floor of his tank, so I'm worried that he might be taking back in some of these worms (so gross) before I can get them out. That's why I wondered if prazi might be an option? I can't wait until he gets past this, and gets healthy again. :)

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There are so many kinds of worms that can apper in tanks. Its nature. There are literally hundreds of different kinds of worms. Planaria are quite distinctive little fat ones that cling to the glass and never go near the fish. You need a strong magnifying lens to describe the shape (especially ends) -if they are segmented (like a garden worm) and any other details like a middle line /waist type line. Do the ends taper? How do they move? Are they thread like or thicker? How long are they are in mms? All these details can help pinpoint what family of worm and therefore which treatment is best.

Jungle AP food covers you for most of the fish and prazi the rest. There is no harm at all prazi-ing the tank but I suspect these are worms that are coming out of Bandit and are one of the many helminth/roundworm types which dont really respond to prazi.

Can you describe the worms some more?

It is essential there is no leftover food in the tank and organic waste is low. This starves them to death. Check your filter media...any in there? Eggs can lie dormant for a very long time in damp dark places.

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You need a strong magnifying lens to describe the shape (especially ends) -if they are segmented (like a garden worm) and any other details like a middle line /waist type line. Do the ends taper? How do they move? Are they thread like or thicker? How long are they are in mms?

I've just spent sometime with my mom's magnifier and a flashlight. :rolleyes: Here's what I can tell you: They are white, thin but not hairlike more like an embroidery thread, they don't seem to be segmented, no outstanding detail they look smooth all over, the ends do taper. They are about 2-3mm long. They just slide along the glass in a straight line I haven't seen any swimming they seem to stay on the back glass and the bottom of the tank. When you try to siphon them out or touch them with a stick they roll up and they then look like a tiny white speck on the glass.

Check your filter media...any in there?

I took a peek and I didn't see anything in there but I will rinse the filter media in some tank water and clean the intake tube and the filter itself. Would it be okay to rinse the media in his tank water or should I use water from the main tank, since I assume the main tank is free of worms.

Do you think I can leave the silk plants in the tank or should I remove all decorations so the worms can't hide? I have to say I am really happy you advised me to remove the gravel when Bandit first got sick, :exactly this would've been a nightmare with gravel in the tank. :krazy:

Edited by caitie

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Oh yes, sounds just like nematodes. One of the hundreds. Encysted ones inside the fish are very hard to kill. But the Jungle will help push the worms out into the water. They can be free living or parasitic. Sounds like a freeliving group. I will check my vet manual and get back which is most likely. But they all need similar treatment. Constant removal....and starvation.

Prazi wont do nought. If they persist you need levamisole/fenbandizole in the water. I'll post a link later today, I have a docs appt and have to sign out...

Bandits encysted worms have possibly either ruptured the swim bladder wall (worst case secnario) or just caused pressure on. When pressure is put on the swimbladder airsacs, they produce a kind of foamy liquid which inflates and makes gas exchange hard. A dash of epsom in the water may help here. One quarter teaspoon per gallon max.

Eggs have a prepatent 3 month life cycle (think back 3 months thats when the eggs were maybe introduced) and emryonate in 3 weeks....the plastic plants need out. Tank as bare as you can. Lots of air, lots of vacuuming out the worms too. And no extra uneaten food anywhere. Gotta go. Back soon! Hang in, you can beat this!! Others have. :heart

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Eggs have a prepatent 3 month life cycle (think back 3 months thats when the eggs were maybe introduced) and emryonate in 3 weeks...

I really appreciate all the effort you are putting in to help me and Bandit. :heart I will be checking in later to see what you recommend but in the meantime I was thinking about what you said and I tried going back in time to see what could have contaminated Bandit. I remembered that in august 2009 I had returned my other fantail called Brutus to the main tank with Bandit . You had really helped me with Brutus who had all sorts of problems, bacterial infection and cysts on his abdomen that ended up bursting. When I put Brutus back in the main tank he was still headstanding and he would sometimes flipover on his back. He died unexpectedly at the end of august. :cry1 Now I wonder could he have been the one who had worms and Bandit got infested then? That would be about 4 months before Bandit started to really go downhill.

But back to Bandit, I will remove all decorations except his little clay pot and I'll try to remove all the worms as I see them, hopefully that will be enough. Now I'm off to bed but I'll check in first thing in the morning. Hope your docs appt went well. :heart

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Its a possible connection. Heavy worm infestations usually originate from a fish that has been in a pond outdoors..somewhere along the line of tank companions..

Any updates on Bandit with just plain fresh low salted water and his new course of Jungle anti-p food? Have you got rid of the worms or do we need to medicate? Will check back tomorrow and if I dont and you need me fast PM me :heart

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I think I managed to get all the worms so far, they were really small. I didn't find any worms since last night so I decided to clean his filter tonight and there were no worms in his filter. He is due to start the Jungle antiparasite food again on friday so I expect I might see some more worms. He still floats on his back sometimes and he still struggles to swim. But today was the first day I saw him sleeping on the bottom of the tank and also in his little clay pot. But once he woke up he was back at the top. So maybe things are starting to get better. How long should I leave the epsom salt in, Imo?

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No longer than 8 days.

Im glad things are improving :). It is just going to be keeping at what you are doing till this is beat. It may mean several AP courses with gaps over time -that is better than water meds which will damage your cycle..something Bandit does not need right now..

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:hi I just have another quick question about the Jungle AP food. The instructions say feed 3 days a week for 4 weeks. Last week Bandit passed a lot of little worms. This week he didn't pass any and I just finished the second round. Should I give him the AP food 3 days a week for the next two weeks or should I stop for now. By the way he is still flipping over on his back most of the time, whenever he stops swimming. Otherwise he seems fine, eating well and pooping normal poop. :rolleyes:

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