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Sakura

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While you were away I made an executive decision and just added the Prazi back in after the water change. ;) I'm a little worried about adding MetroPlus too, because it contains some other ingredients. Here's the list: metronidazole, sodium chloride, synthetic polymers and a chelating agent. That's as specific as it gets. Is it okay to add in with the Prazi, or will that be too much of a stress for the fish?

I tried hand-feeding Mowgli separate from the others in a bucket. I got him to take some peas and Hikari pellets into his mouth by holding him gently underwater in one hand and with the other hand putting the pellet right up to his mouth and helping it in. But, he spits EVERYTHING back out after a short while. I just can't get him to actually swallow anything. He swims strange, kind of wobbling from side to side like it's a real struggle. He really does try to eat, but then spits it back out always. What is going on with my poor fish? If he dies I am going to be so... sad. He's been with me through a lot of learning mistakes and I can't have him die this way. He seems very weak and I'm scared. I also tried frozen bloodworms and freeze-dried ones, he won't eat those either. Some good news is that his eye seems SLIGHTLY better maybe. But still, that doesn't help anything if he can't eat! :cry1 Help?

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Do you have access to Flagyl, hun? I'm a bit uncomfortable with MetroPlus having other ingredients. I've only done pure metronidazole with prazi with no issues. If you have Flagyl, go for it. I can't remember the mg one tab has though. It must have been the 250mg I used which I dosed per 20g. If it was 250mg, then this one will work fine. Flagyl is available in nearby pharmacies. Thank goodness you're not in UK. UK recommends prescriptions. I can buy mine OTC or any metro product for that matter.

Have you tried garlic on foods, Sakura? If Mowgli fails to eat, perhaps we can consider green water. Green floating algae can be absorbed easily by the fish and it is very nutritious. This is the only way I can think that would work. Another option is hardboiled egg yolk suspended in water. Be very careful not to overdo it. Egg yolk quickly pollutes. I'd personally do water changes after feeding them egg yolk. If your other fish can eat just fine, then the egg whites are not a total waste either. Mine ABSOLUTELY love egg whites.:)

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Flagyl... I don't have it, but if I go to the pharmacy and ask for it by that name they should know what it is, right? I think I can try to get that tomorrow. Then I might need dosing instructions since I'm sure it doesn't come with fish dosages. hehe

It's too bad I don't have green water anymore since I've started these daily water changes! Maybe if I just do smaller water changes each time it will come back. I think it would. I haven't tried garlic, no. I've heard good things about garlic guard, but I'll have to see if they carry it at my nearby petstores. It seems like maybe the inside of his mouth is too irritated to actually swallow any food though, even when he tries, so I'm a little unsure that garlic would help. I could try it anyways though. So with hard boiled egg yolks you just kind of crush it up and put it anywhere in the tank? Then they absorb it, or do you actually see them eating it? That feels like a dumb question.

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They SHOULD know it. It's a med for humans but works equally well with fish. I vaguely remember my tablets were 250mg so one tablet per 20g is sufficient enough.

I'm not entirely sure where you are nor the climate but if it's sunny in your area, take advantage of grabbing a pail of old tank water, put a pinch of fishfood in there and put it under direct sunlight. This will help SEED your tank with green water. Aerate your water VERY WELL especially during the night as respiration period of algae can make your fish gasp very badly. Keep a watch on your water parameters closely since dead algae can contribute to poor water quality and oxygen depletion.

The garlic should help regain its appetite. An added bonus is its potency to irritate possible internal parasites that your fish may have. Some parasites might be killed off or expelled as a result of garlic present in the fish's tract. Its potency against most parasites is still debatable though.

I should have clarified the egg yolk better. Grab a jar filled with less than half of the water. Grab 1/4 or 1/6 of the egg yolk and suspend in the water. Stir until the water appears cloudy. Get a medicine dropper and squirt the egg-laden water directly to Mowgli. Mowgli should be able to nibble the egg particles suspended. As eggs are very nutritious, he should hopefully be able to gain a health boost.:)

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Ohhhh, okay that sounds good about the egg yolks. I will try that tomorrow after I get some ever-elusive sleep. I'll also look for some garlic and Flagyl. Hopefully something will work. Thanks for the help, I'll be going off to sleep now.

Mowgli thanks you too :)

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I'm sorry to hear you're having issues :( I don't know what to suggest but I hope something sorts out soon.

Have a look online for Flagyl, we can't get it OTC in the UK but I managed to find it on ebay for racing pigeons, got it posted from Spain. It should be even easier in the US but over the counter would be better.

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In my opinion absolutely no meds are going to work until you either get rid of the gravel or reduce it. They will just kill the fish. That is 3 inch gravel. Or more maybe. And it is very scary territory because it is home to millions of larval forms and anaerobic bacteria that just keep on and on and on reproducing infinitely..once they have settled in.

You have lost quite a number of fish already. It would be so easy to solve this by removing and rinsing and then adding back a thin layer only. Wait until your tank is well established and all the fish healthy to return to thicker gravel, if you really must, it is just too hard to control parasites and bacteria in deep graveled tanks. I know you say you love pretty tanks and you are an artist but sick fish do not make for pretty tanks.. it is something to get into when your fish are healthy and do it slowly in stages.

Just please give a few minutes thought to the fact that all the long life fish and fish that grow huge and stunning are kept in either bare bottom tanks or very thin gravelled tanks. Look at all the breeders tanks, RainGarden tanks, show fish tanks- all are barebottom. Fancy fish simply do not grow huge and stunning in gravelled tanks. Get your fish healthy and then slowly add all your plants and decorations. Not the other way round.

Let me give you a few things to think over.

1. Hundreds of thousands of bacteria live in a space the size of the period at the end of this sentence.

2. Bacteria have an average life span of 20 minutes. This means that during this time every single bacterium must replicate/reproduce. 20 bacterium? = reproduction every minute by one of them. In that gravel there are probably trillions of millions of billions. Each one reproducing by cell transfer and binary fission- trillions and millions more every second.

3. When they reproduce, each one reproduces the amount of bacteria the size of a sugar lump.

Some of them are motile, they move up through the water. Most like the dark recesses of deep gravel. Its ideal for breeding. Dark, wet and undisturbed.

Beneficial aerobic bacteria live in the very top 2cms of the gravel bed.. the maximum amount of gravel that can hold beneficial bacteria is 1/4 of an inch. EVERY bacteria and larval parasitic form beneath that is a bad one. Anaerobic ulcer disease causing types of bacteria and parasites like flukes that sink in under stones and can stay encysted for some time completely untouched by meds that cannot reach them.

You are in danger of over medicating these fish. All you need do with new fish is prazi and salt and use bare bottom highly aerated tanks.

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Sorry my gravel is absolutely not three inches or more, I don't know where you're getting that from...? Maybe it looks that deep to you from the pictures? In reality it's about an inch. This past week at least, I have been doing a THOROUGH gravel vac with an almost 100% water change every day. So the gravel is not deep nor is it undisturbed. The gravel is being stirred up very well every day. Maybe it's just me but from your comment you seem angry at me so... sorry I guess? I've actually always gotten that vibe from you, but again it could just be a misunderstanding.

Right now it seems a really important thing is getting my Mowgli to eat and figuring out why he's not eating. Maybe you have some suggestions about that?

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Im not angry. Yes my suggestion is to remove the gravel and clean it carefully as I said above. Vacuuming sometimes is not enough.

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I think what trinket is trying to get across to everyone... Is that every case of Dropsy or Popeye seems to come from tanks with gravel and ornaments in the tank.... And the issue lays in the gravel and ornaments hun :o

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I think what trinket is trying to get across to everyone... Is that every case of Dropsy or Popeye seems to come from tanks with gravel and ornaments in the tank.... And the issue lays in the gravel and ornaments hun :o

Okay sounds good.

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Just a quick update: Mowgli's eye looks back to normal, whew. They're still on Prazi, but I'm going to break from that for a couple days and then do another round. They all bottom sit 100% of the time, but they are hanging in there. Mowgli looks the worst, and I think his gills may be swollen slightly. Does that indicate anything?

Lupin: I fed Mowgli some hard boiled egg yolk today, and I think he maybe liked it. I used a syringe to squirt it into his mouth, but is it normal for some to be blown back out through the gills? I'm kind of wondering if he actually ingested any. Also do you know if there's a toxicity chart for nitrite similar to the one you showed me before for ammonia?

Trinket: I took your advice and removed the gravel, let's hope that helps. They still have the large river rocks in there though, because I thought it would make them feel more comfortable. I might take them out because I'm worried about them scratching the tank bottom.

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It's normal for fish to blow some of them through gills, Sakura. Ooohhhh..I remember my angelfish and severums doing that before.heartpump.gif He should be able to ingest some of it. Just do a water change afterwards to remove the yolk excess.:)

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I am so glad he is hanging in there!!:heart

Trinket: I took your advice and removed the gravel, let's hope that helps. They still have the large river rocks in there though, because I thought it would make them feel more comfortable. I might take them out because I'm worried about them scratching the tank bottom.

River rocks are okay.. easy to lift up too.

I'd like to apologize for coming off as angry. You will get use to me over time. I just say what I think and I really don't intend to be nasty. I think you are doing FABULOUS now!!!:D

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Thanks Trinket, I'd like to apologize too. I was just reading things the wrong way. I do tend to get defensive, and it also doesn't help that's it's so hard to tell how something is said when it's just in type.

Thanks for the help :)

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My sweet little Sibley has died :cry1

It's odd because he was the one showing the most hope of recovery in my opinion. Yesterday I had noticed a yellowish hue on his body that wasn't there before and I worried about velvet. But I just wasn't sure, and I think it's pretty rare. (?) Plus he always had a little yellow tint on his head and caudal fin... just not on his body though where I noticed it yesterday. He was beat up, but already healing really well, from getting stuck under the driftwood a few days ago (since removed). He was eating well and was the most active in the tank. But today he kept getting stuck on the filter intake strainers. I should have fit some sponges over them, but I just lowered the flow rate and told myself it wouldn't happen again. :( The last time he got stuck on it he was stuck for a while and by the time I noticed and got him off his fins were in shreds and he had a bloody spot at the base of his caudal. His scales also looked very roughed up. I think it was just the trauma of this that caused his death, but I don't know for certain. I've heard that a healthy fish will never get stuck to the filter intake, and certainly he wasn't 100% healthy, so maybe he was going to die anyways. I don't know, but it's very sad. :( And now I'm worried about possible velvet in the tank.

RIP sweet little Sibley and I'm so sorry I couldn't do better for you. You deserved better than to die like this.

On a slightly happier note I've been hand feeding Mowgli frozen daphnia with a syringe, and I think (crosses fingers) he may be improving. Time will tell. But Carl has got bubbles over his scales just like Wallaby's pearlie had a while back.

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Carl died tonight. He was a crown pearlie and he had clear bubbles over almost every scale in the days leading up to his death. What could this indicate?

Mowgli bottom sits half the time and the other half of the time he gulps lethargically at the surface. He goes between these two activities without doing anything else. He still can't eat, I've been hand-feeding him frozen daphnia with a syringe still.

Moxie bottom sits absolutely 100% of the time. Yesterday he was stuck on the filter intake with a little red on his fin, but I unplugged that filter and he swam off. I think it didn't damage him as much as it did Sibley when it happened to him. I am keeping that filter off for good until things get worked out, because now there's only two guys in the 55 gallon. But I am worried about any bbs that was in that filter... it's a huge aquaclear with lots of ceramic beads. Moxie still bottom sits all the time and looks really bad. His dorsal is upright usually. He only eats if I put him in a separate bucket with the sinking pellets.

Someone please help, I don't want to lose these guys. I have no idea what is going on with them. Any ideas? Gravel is out, and no meds are in because I'm still wrestling with the cycle. :( I'm bummed about Carl and all the ones I've already lost. I also sadly don't have the time to care for them like I probably should because I'm taking 16 credits right now in school and also working. And I don't handle stress well. :( But... any ideas about what could be going on here? I could remove these two to my 10 gallon tank for temporary treatment since that might be more efficient. What if there's something nasty in the tank that they're in that is killing them off? Help? :(

EDIT: Just to be clear, that filter I unplugged is not my only filter in this tank. I also have a HOT 250 and another small filter (rated 20 gallons).

Edited by Sakura
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I am so sorry you are still all battling here.

When fish stop eating , they need good cycled water most. You are right to focus on that.

Did you ever get the prazi? The yellowing could be an secondary internal anaerobic bacterial infection. Flukes often bring those in.

When fish seem "empty" inside like floaty or off balance when you remove them from "propped " places it often means internal infection- best treated with med food...I assume this is not possible since they are not eating.

You say Moxie eats if hes in a bucket...this suggests to me you have some bad stuff still in the main tank and it would be a good idea to set up a QT.

Clear bubbles all over a pearlscale is dropsy.

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Thanks for your input Trinket, I will see what I can do. I didn't know that about bubbles and pearlies. He must have been dropsied then, because yeah they were all over. :(

Oh, yes I did get Prazi and they have been treated once with it (and once before just before that with PC tabs). But when the first round was up I decided to hold off on another one so that I could focus on the water. I could try feeding Moxie some med food, and Mowgli might eat some if I dissolve it and put it in the syringe. But then might it lose potency?

I'm dealing with some health issues with myself personally right now too, so this is a bit too much at the moment! How do you take care of your fish when you can't even take care of yourself? But I must try. Sorry for that little personal rant... :doh11: Things have not been well around here lately is all. :idont

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Im sorry you havent been feeling good!! One of the worst things is pet duties when we are feeling lousy. I really relate to that. Your health must come first :heart

You have the gravel out, prazi should be a synch. I wouldn't try and feed soaked med food I think. How is the cycle now?

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I have bad news; Moxie has just died. This is tough. I put him in the freezer because I couldn't bear to throw him in the garbage like the others... his little face. Now I will always wonder what he would have grown up to be, and I will never know. The poor little thing.

Sorry Trinket to be honest I've been a bit too frazzled or something to test parameters in their tank, but I had moved them to the ten gallon with one of the small filters that was on the big tank, and was doing daily water changes. I think everything was fairly good. I redosed with Prazi yesterday because I was worried that it couldn't wait. I just don't know what's going on with them, I'm at a complete loss. Maybe they have something bacterial? I now only have Mowgli left, should I maybe dose with MetroPlus after the Prazi is out?

I have the new RG fish in her own separate tank and I'm keeping ALL equipment separate by the way, so no worries there... I hope.

Sorry to be a downer, this is just really sad :( He'll never ever be replaced. I'm really feeling at fault here because there was absolutely nothing obviously wrong with anyone from this tank until I started treating them with salt and Prazi. They were all so happy...

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