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No hun, it treats for flukes too so you wouldnt need prazi.

Heres a link so you know what you are looking for but if they dont have it just get what you can that treats for lice as its kinda urgent!!

http://www.theaquariumshop.com.au/shopexd.asp?id=115&name=Aquarium Science Anti-Parasite Tablet Fish Medicatio

...and here is another brand, although the same stuff.

http://www.aristopet.com.au/?page=72&item=760&product_search=&dosearch=

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I got Para-Cide today

95.JPG

One tab treats 40 litres... mine is about 225 litres, so I was supposed to put in 5 5/8 tabs, but just put 5 tabs in.

I tried to dissolve the tablets first, but some of them did not dissolve properly and when I put the mixture in, my red cap oranda thought it was food and just took quick munches of the undissolved parts... is this okay?

I hope this puts an end to all the drama...

I have also done 75% water change yesterday after numerous water changes the previous day. So I'm pretty sure whatever remaining of the Aquasonic yellow salt is gone. I allowed about 24 hrs for my fish to rest from salt changes... so they were in salt-less water for 24 hrs, then I just put in about 0.1% new white aquarium salt (although the brand is also Aquasonic lol)... I will up the level to about 0.25% over the next three days.

One question: now that it is treated with Para-Cide, how should I do water change? Thanks for answering...

---

Update on fish:

- Red cap oranda: looking a lot better, although body still looks terrible... missing scales and pinkish body... but she hasn't looked this good for days and ate foods and constantly active and vacuum the sand for foods... is having healthy appetite

- Pearl: is also looking a lot better, but still flashes sometimes. I'm concerned that when I scopped him with my hand, the rear part of his belly shows a bit of raised scale/ pinecone.

- Bubbleeye: still the pig of the tank, but tends to bottom sit unless there's food around

- Red lionhead: pinecone is back but not as bad as it was previously. Very slight pinecone. But I can't help but notice he looks smaller and smaller by the day... he's a true red colour, even more red looking than >> :fbottom: so there's also black-ish colours on his skin and around the head... like it's blood. Still no appetite.

- Black ranchu: condition is worsening... as I type this he's lying on the bottom on his side... he's looking weaker and weaker... but body is still as black as ever... no appetite.

Edited by nakedsnake
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Nakedsnake, just a few questions for you.

What are your water parameters right now?

pH especially?

Have you tried using garlic to coax your fish to eat?

What have you been feeding them so far?

A few notes about trichlorfon.

-More toxic at high pH. Here, I think let's stick to pH of 7 for now although anything at 7.6 and below will be absolutely fine but if pH is quite high, then reduce the number of tablets possibly by one or two. This seems confusing though so assuming your current pH is pretty stable between 6.5-7.6, then 4-5 tablets will be good enough.

Let's just stick to 5 tablets. Don't chop another tablet just to fit the proper proportion so we can avoid overdosing. This is why I had been wary to suggest trichlorfon. Trichlorfon is so toxic to fish if overdosed. Now for water changes, to keep concentration measurement as accurate as possible, do daily water changes by at least 120-160 liters and replace back with 3-4 tablets. Reduce one tablet from actual count (depending on water volume replaced) if pH elevates to more than 7.6. Trichlorfon degrades VERY easily within a day. Tablets/powder are more concentrated than the liquid form.

Take advantage of large water changes until we are sure the ammonia and nitrite are stable at zero. Remember to redose trichlorfon exactly as the water volume replaced. Besides, your fish will benefit from extremely clean water. Feed them 1-2 times a day if they are regaining healthy appetite. For finicky eaters, persuade them using garlic laced on food.

In liquid form of trichlorfon, I had to redose a full dosage after conducting daily large water changes as the liquid form seemed not strong enough to cover the larval forms of anchorworms and fish lice that kept reappearing even though the adult parasites had been manually removed with tweezers so I can avoid even a higher concentration. My goldfish had shown bloodshot veins indicating they're sensitive to higher concentrations.

I'm confident your water conditions will eventually stabilize themselves. The trichlorfon will not touch your beneficial bacteria but still lethal towards flukes and external parasites such as larval forms of anchorworms and fish lice. If you spot adult fish lice, carefully and gently remove them with tweezers so you can avoid high concentrations of trichlorfon required since some fish lice are too well protected by the pesticide. Dimilin would have been much more efficient here as it inhibits keratin growth thus allowing the chemical to infiltrate the fish lice's innards killing it in the process.

Looks like you're on right track so far.

Oh, yes, the previous salt by Aquasonic was too loaded with other unnecessary elements that it would not have been as effective as the actual aquarium salt, kosher salt or pickling salt that we often use and suggested.

Please keep us updated.

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Nakedsnake, just a few questions for you.

What are your water parameters right now?

pH especially?

Have you tried using garlic to coax your fish to eat?

What have you been feeding them so far?

A few notes about trichlorfon.

-More toxic at high pH. Here, I think let's stick to pH of 7 for now although anything at 7.6 and below will be absolutely fine but if pH is quite high, then reduce the number of tablets possibly by one or two. This seems confusing though so assuming your current pH is pretty stable between 6.5-7.6, then 4-5 tablets will be good enough.

Let's just stick to 5 tablets. Don't chop another tablet just to fit the proper proportion so we can avoid overdosing. This is why I had been wary to suggest trichlorfon. Trichlorfon is so toxic to fish if overdosed. Now for water changes, to keep concentration measurement as accurate as possible, do daily water changes by at least 120-160 liters and replace back with 3-4 tablets. Reduce one tablet from actual count (depending on water volume replaced) if pH elevates to more than 7.6. Trichlorfon degrades VERY easily within a day. Tablets/powder are more concentrated than the liquid form.

Take advantage of large water changes until we are sure the ammonia and nitrite are stable at zero. Remember to redose trichlorfon exactly as the water volume replaced. Besides, your fish will benefit from extremely clean water. Feed them 1-2 times a day if they are regaining healthy appetite. For finicky eaters, persuade them using garlic laced on food.

In liquid form of trichlorfon, I had to redose a full dosage after conducting daily large water changes as the liquid form seemed not strong enough to cover the larval forms of anchorworms and fish lice that kept reappearing even though the adult parasites had been manually removed with tweezers so I can avoid even a higher concentration. My goldfish had shown bloodshot veins indicating they're sensitive to higher concentrations.

I'm confident your water conditions will eventually stabilize themselves. The trichlorfon will not touch your beneficial bacteria but still lethal towards flukes and external parasites such as larval forms of anchorworms and fish lice. If you spot adult fish lice, carefully and gently remove them with tweezers so you can avoid high concentrations of trichlorfon required since some fish lice are too well protected by the pesticide. Dimilin would have been much more efficient here as it inhibits keratin growth thus allowing the chemical to infiltrate the fish lice's innards killing it in the process.

Looks like you're on right track so far.

Oh, yes, the previous salt by Aquasonic was too loaded with other unnecessary elements that it would not have been as effective as the actual aquarium salt, kosher salt or pickling salt that we often use and suggested.

Please keep us updated.

I'll do exactly what you said.

I think I spotted a BIG fish lice on my bubble eye tail, it looks like a drop of water on a table... like 4mm in diameter... transparent! However, I don't have a tweezer... can I use my bare hand?

Should I still use Prazi? ###### thing could be really lost by now... I'm pretty sure of it... Australia Post is usually reliable. I'm an eBay trader, ships and receives items regularly by mail... I have never, in the last two years, not received or lost an item. It's actually very reliable. If what Louise said about Brisbane system messing up, that could be, but it's also rare.

- pH tested this morning: 7.2

- Did 75% water change yesterday, so ammonia should be 0, nitrite 0, nitrate:??

- I have been feeding Hikari pellets (Hikari Goldfish Gold, Hikari Wheat-Germ, Hikari Lionfish sinking, frozen food for Goldfish, frozen bloodworms). Any other suggestions for sick fish/ that build up their health?

- You mean the garlic we use for cooking? Just crush it and "apply" it, or should I just throw it in the soaking bowl when the pellets are soaked?

Edited by nakedsnake
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I'll do exactly what you said.

I think I spotted a BIG fish lice on my bubble eye tail, it looks like a drop of water on a table... like 4mm in diameter... transparent! However, I don't have a tweezer... can I use my bare hand?

Should I still use Prazi? ###### thing could be really lost by now... I'm pretty sure of it... Australia Post is usually reliable. I'm an eBay trader, ships and receives items regularly by mail... I have never, in the last two years, not received or lost an item. It's actually very reliable. If what Louise said about Brisbane system messing up, that could be, but it's also rare.

- pH tested this morning: 7.2

- Did 75% water change yesterday, so ammonia should be 0, nitrite 0, nitrate:??

- I have been feeding Hikari pellets (Hikari Goldfish Gold, Hikari Wheat-Germ, Hikari Lionfish sinking, frozen food for Goldfish, frozen bloodworms). Any other suggestions for sick fish/ that build up their health?

- You mean the garlic we use for cooking? Just crush it and "apply" it, or should I just throw it in the soaking bowl when the pellets are soaked?

No, don't even attempt with bare hands. You will NEVER pluck it out of the fins. They latch on the fins too hard. I already tried that with very little success. Buy yourself a new set of tweezers. Remember to use gloves when handling your fish or apply stresscoat containing aloe vera on your palms to protect their slimecoat.

Like Trinket said, don't use the prazi if you want to use trichlorfon which kills BOTH flukes and lice. If you manage to obtain the prazi, save it for next time when you buy your new fish.

Hmmm...What is your nitrate exactly? Water parameters are all fine (except for undetermined nitrate) in which case, you may proceed with 5 tablets of Paracide.

Ummm...Nakedsnake, the goldfish should be "lionhead", not "lionfish".;) You might confuse the readers because "lionfish" are marine fish of the Pterois genus.lol Proper term is "lionhead". I believe you meant Hikari Lionhead which is fine.

About the "Hikari Goldfish Gold", is that the proper brand name? I never heard of that but I must have confused this with "Bio Gold" and "Oranda Gold". Both are floating pellets, not an option even for my own goldfish unless presoaked. The latter is much better than Bio Gold.

Do you have access to sodium ascorbate or Vit C capsules? I'd combine the powder into a gel food recipe. There's gel food recipes in Goldfish Food section. The other option is roll bits of frozen shrimps on the powder. Hopefully, it'll stick long enough to be ingested by your fish quickly.

Some commercial foods have garlic added already such as Hikari Lionhead. That's pointless. You must soak some frozen foods with garlic juice. There is liquid garlic by Kent that you might find in petshops unless you can extract garlic juice yourself. You can lace a few drops on gel foods ready made for the fish. I would not mix it in the whole gel food recipe though because it is far too pungent. That's up to you though.

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HI! Popping in to say I am sorry I have been absent the last few days.. It was my daughters birthday, and then we had some major major household drama happening here that I had to deal with.. I think its settled (or will be settled) now...

Anyway, I've been reading here and there when I can but I am going to reread everthing that I missed now.. It looks like with everyone's help, things are well taken care of here, but I still wanna catch up and stay involved with this thread since I have been since the beginning! So just bear with me a bit!! :heart

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Just wanted to say to nakedsnake -- hang in there!! When I first got my fish (3 oranda siblings) they had a TON of problems upon arrival that I thought would never stop. 2 out of the 3 arrived with bad illnesses and injuries and didn't make it (not saying this is going to happen with your fish, I think they have an excellent chance of a full recovery.)

However, I spent soooo much money buying this and that. Luckily, the third fish seems to be 100% healthy and doing great now! I have finally been able to relax and enjoy my aquarium a little bit for the first time since getting my fish in November.

Trust me, once everything is straightened out, it will all be worth it. Things tend to get worse before they get better, so try not to get too discouraged if that's the case (I know I got *really* discouraged -- I was ready to throw in the towel several times when nothing I was doing seemed to be helping.) Your fish will be happy and thanking you in no time and you will be so glad you did everything you did for them. :D I just know it's hard when things keep getting worse with no light at the end of the tunnel....but hang in there!

:goodluck

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^Thanks CountryLovah, always appreciate your input. :) And thanks Badfish for your encouragement, maybe that's what I needed.

Lupin, good news is the giant lice on my bubbleeye's tail seems to be gone... it has unattached itself, maybe dies after I dosed with Para-Cide. And my juvenile red cap oranda seems to be healthier and healthier, eating although occasionally still throws up some foods. Pearlie is also getting better.

Now the bad news:

- Bubble eye seems to be missing some scales... and I caught her flashing for the first time in about 4 days. Just like my white lionhead who suffered very bad and recovered with huge appetite and looked healthy, and suddenly it got bad again all of a sudden (worse than the first time) and then she died. I fear now my bubble eye is heading the same direction, but she doesn't look sick.

- Black ranchu seems helpless and lying on his side at the bottom all day, breathing slightly hard (but not gasping), but he looks fine. The body looks bright black as always, and clear.

- The worst condition is my red lionfish. To be honest, I don't think he would make it. I have never seen a goldfish suffer from a scale disfigure as this one. I thought dropsy looks gross, but this one looks twice as bad. It looks like the lice and parasites are literally eating him from inside. His bright red body is replaced with darkish tint red like he's bleeding from inside... and if dropsy fish are balooning, he is getting thinner and thinner... actually to the point where I scooped him this morning, that I could see his skeleton's shape on the belly part!!! If you have seen marine fish "box/cowfish" where they have outer skeleton like crabs, looking boxy (thus the name boxfish), he is turning like a box!!! I'm not kidding. Looks like the lice have really eaten and sucked all of his belly content that nothing is left and from the normal plump looking goldfish to a skeleton boxy shaped goldfish. He has also raised a few scales so the pinecone is back, although not as bad.

The Hikari is Goldfish Gold. I think it's a new product they have... its pack is small and the pellet size is so small (about 1+mm). I also have Hikari Oranda Gold. I think I'll buy garlic juice.

Edited by nakedsnake
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Your lionhead wil benefit best if you try feeding him gel foods that include sardines, mackerel or tuna. All three include fatty acids that your goldfish ned in order to regain his weight.

Glad to hear some goldfish are doing better already.:)

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Prazi just arrived yesterday. But I guess it's too late, my bubble eye passed away yesterday :cry1 following the exact same path of my white lionhead, who was in a terrible state, recovered healthy with huge appetite, and then went back sick worse than before and died.

So now, there're 4 fish in the tank:

- Pearl: ballooning and I can see slight pineconing on his body.

- Red lionhead: condition is still terrible but he's still quite active vacuuming sand and ate some food yesterday

- Black ranchu: condition is not getting better, throws up food being fed to him.

- Red cap oranda: is now healthy, looking like a healthy fish, vacuuming sand, going to surface, eating fine... but could be following the same path of my bubble eye, and white lionhead.

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I am so sorry to hear that, Nakedsnake.

Any unusual symptoms before the bubble eye died?

What's your paracide dosing so far?

Water parameters?

It sucks your mail express delayed the shipping. Any reason why?

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^No unusual symptom just went from "recovered with huge appetite and bright eyes, and happy goldfish" to contracting the same disease... and she went hiding into the glass cup and she was unresponsive for nearly a day, when I pulled her out, she didn't move at all... and just died.

Para-cide dose is still 5 tablets. My method of changing the water is take out 40 ltrs out and put new 40 ltrs in and 1 new tablet (since 1 tablet is for 40 litres).

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I am SO so sorry u lost the bubble eye :cry1

I understand ur frustration here... Especially with the money being spent!

I sincerely hope things turn around and u do not lose any more fish.

How are things now?

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My juvenile red cap oranda died this morning. She also followed the same path the other two fish who died before her: sick, recovered healthy with massive appetite (but I never fed them too much), and then 2-3 days later got sick again/ worse than before, and died. At this rate, I Kind of hope the sick fish now don't "recover" because it usually means death in 2-3 days.

All the three fish that died now also happen to be all females although I doubt sex had anything to do with their deaths.

Now all remaining in the tank is the 3 males:

- Pearl: pineconing and just freaks out everytime I approach the tank... not eating

- Red lionhead: body condition still looks terrible... similar to a human being bashed by several people in a fight... internal blood on the head, near tail and all over body... but he might have the best condition of all the fish in the tank because despite the condition he still looks for food and eats when I feed him in the fish net

- Black ranchu: doesn't have strength to swim normally... laying on sand on his side and getting thinner and thinner, unlike red lionhead, doesn't have appetite and throws up everything I feed him. He's losing black colour, he used to be very black, true black all over his body, now I can see the black colour fading into gold and I can see the scales normally unseen

---

I never used Prazi, only Para-Cide at 5 tablets dose for my 224 litres tank (1 tab for 40 litres). This stuff is quite strong btw I put my hand in and it developed immediate red rashes on my forearm.

pH is tested at 7.0

ammonia 0

nitrite 0

nitrate 10ppm

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OH I am SO sorry... I am sorry you lost another fish and I am sorry that despite your efforts things are not getting better!!!!!!

Okay... do something for me.. I asked u to do this b4 but I never got the answer..

Go measure the tank and post the actual dimensions.. The Length we know is 4 foot right, but what about the height and the depth.. Let's make absolute certain ur tank is the # of gallons we think it is.. I know you are 99% sure but lets rule out that 1%... If it is even a BIT smaller that could effect the dosing with the paracide.. I would HATE for it to be too much...

I am going to be honest with you.. The prognosis does not look good in my opinion for the pearscale.. Once fish are pineconed it is very hard to treat and the cases where there is most improvement tend to be where the fish can be put in a hospital tank and treated accordingly, and having access to Metronidazole is soo important in that treatment..

As for the other fish, this seems to be VERY very serious, but please try not to give up hope.. Please continue to monitor the water conditions and keep the water as clean as possible and as low on ammonia and nitrites as possible... Please double check PH often to be sure that has not dropped..

What level of salt is in there now or is there even any? I forget..

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^I already described the tank dimension, it's 4' x 18" x 18" (255 litres/ 67 US gallons)...

But you have to consider:

- the amount of sand I put in

- the fact the water is not full to the top

- the glass thickness... as these cut the water volume...

So considering the three factors above, the real dimension of water (not tank) is 47.5" x 14.45" x 16" which makes the net water volume 180 litres/ 47.3 US gallons. HOLY SHYT!

180 litres means 4.5 tablets... I've been dosing with 5 tablets. Oh well... it's not that much of a difference I guess... as actually the fish still flash and I can still see some mini lice on my pearl's tail fin.

Salt level = 0.15%.

Condition of my black ranchu is bad, he seems to get weaker and weaker... I don't think he'll last long.

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Sorry I must have missed that, or forgotten... (This thread is sooo long it was easier for me to ask again, then read back through!!! This is ALMOST as long as some of MY threads.. Are you trying to beat me for the title of "longest disease thread" NakedSnake?

:rofl

Okay well.. that's good though. I cant see that the 1/2 tablet would be making THAT huge a difference... Just wanted to make sure..

I feel (and maybe Trinket or Lupin will have something to add) that at this point there is not much u really CAN do other than contiue with the medication and hope for the best. These lice seem to have REALLY taken a toll on them, and I am just hoping that some of them will be strong enough to fight this..

I wish there was something more I could offer... Hang in there...:hug

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Thanks CountryLovah

I've been quite sad for some time... I really don't know what else to do. Considering I had been considering myself as one of the freshwater experts for some time... and this hits and I can't do anything to save them... makes me pretty lousy.

If Para-Cide doesn't even help them, what on earth can I do? It also sucks as I find out that these diseases really kill my passion of fish keeping... why should I keep animals that are gonna die in my hands/ under my care? But the worst is to think that I used to think fish was my one of my biggest passions and when this hits, I began to lose my "passion", which means it was never really a passion. Because a passion is true when you can take the good and the bad.

I wouldn't lie, I have thought of just crushing the fish with my hands so they can die quickly than suffering like this... just grab a hammer and instant death than this... and hopefully they're reborn as a human. This sounds all negative but it's pretty much what';s going on in the last 4 weeks.

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I wouldn't lie, I have thought of just crushing the fish with my hands so they can die quickly than suffering like this... just grab a hammer and instant death than this... and hopefully they're reborn as a human. This sounds all negative but it's pretty much what';s going on in the last 4 weeks.

WOAHHHH! Nooo noooo don't do that!!!!!!!

But.. I understand the rest of your feelings.. Completely.. (Other than the hammer part!)..

I've felt the same way before.. Really. I know exactly what u mean about it killing your passion for the hobby. When I first came to this board, and all the fish I had bought all got Ich and died (I had 6 to start too) I just felt like "What's the point?!"... It's so sad to watch, and u feel so helpless. It gets VERY frustrating!!

But I remembered how much I loved it when it was good and got back into it. But even THEN I ended up having countless issues with my new fish. So many issues that I too starting to lose the passion from the hobby. There were so many times when I would look at my tanks that were supposed to make me happy and instead they just made me miserable...

The thing is... it seems hard to imagine things getting better now, but I think that they will. HOPEFULLY with some of these fish.. But, if not.. you have to remember that now u have us here to help you make a fresh start IF it came to that...

Try to hold out hope for these remaining fish.. Keep going with the Paracide. We must get rid of those fish lice..

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My red lionhead just passed away today... he was still moving barely

He's such a good boy :cry1 even near death, he never panicked just slowly went about... I felt hopeless. The stomach is so empty is like the parasites really sucked all of his stomach content and all is left is just skin and bone in the stomach area. He's the reddest goldie I've ever seen. In fact, I'd probably never seen a intense red colour anywhere like that... it's like true red.

I've been spending my last couple of days trying to understand them better... what caused my pearlie to be so panicky when I approach near the tank. Trying to think what they might think about everything now: their sickness, their situation, food, me, etc. As a result, I can approach the tank now and put my hand in and he's calm.

So I am down from 6 fish to 2 fish now:

- Pearl: is doing a lot better, some scales are still raised, but he eats fine just not from the surface yet/ my finger. Interacts and gives me a few bites when my hand goes near him. :)

- Black ranchu: he was laying on the bottom on his side all week and refused all foods... this morning I found him to be laying on his stomach in upright position, so I think he's getting better... he just won't move. And I tried to force feed him in the fish net... and although he still throws them up, at least half didn't come out. So I fed him about 4-5 pellets in the morning, and then another round this evening.

---

I still do 25% water change with Prime water conditioner and white Aquarium Salt (0.15%) every day and still dose with Para-Cide.

But I believe, just like humans in sickness, medication is intended to fight bad bacterias and close the wound... but the real recovery is from internal strength... and I try to make sure they have internal strength to make recovery. Such internal strength, I believe, comes from:

- Food... without energy, you just won't recover from any illness. When you're sick you have to eat like normal ppl.

- Interaction with others... in this case, it would be me. I try to be like my mother when I was sick and she was always attentive when I was laying on the bed... making sure I felt "safe" and "everything is going to be alright". I don't mean to be a fish whisperer, but I hope I can go close to that to provide more for my fish.

Thanks for asking CountryLovah, I hope things get better from here :heart

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Regarding your lionhead, did you actually perform a post mortem necropsy to see what was in the abdominal area? Were you able to get some photos of it? Even if you just pressed the abdominal area and it felt mushy, that's not going to accurately identify the actual issue.

Are all fish lice gone now? When was the last one spotted?

I'm so sorry you lost your other fish.

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I'm SO very sorry you are down to only 2 fish!! I really wish there was something more I could say or do...:cry1

How much longer are you supposed to be doing the paracide? What does the bottle/package say.. Seems long to me but then again I have never used that product...

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I'm SO very sorry you are down to only 2 fish!! I really wish there was something more I could say or do...:cry1

How much longer are you supposed to be doing the paracide? What does the bottle/package say.. Seems long to me but then again I have never used that product...

All the bottle says is to retreat after 7 days to prevent reinfestation. Vague?

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