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Round green things could be fish lice. Can you get a picture of it? Does it look anything like this?:

http://www.aquariuml...s-fish-lice.jpg

Or this?:

http://www.bonniespl...us/IMG_2223.jpg

My goodness, the first one looks freaky... you can see the lice's eyes... which seem cartoonic... but freaky!!!

I can't really see up close... I guess I'll look really hard in the morning... now is 2:16 AM here, don't really wanna disturb the housemates.

But it should be the first one... as I don't think I spotted anything on their bodies... just on the tail.

If this is indeed lice... can they be eliminated with Prazi?

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I need to recall this. How long were they kept in a smaller tank before? How many fish were there and how big were they back then? Any changes in filtration between old and new tanks?

Lack of lighting thereof is never an issue. I'd add hiding places though to help calm them down a bit. Perhaps some fake floating plants and terracotta pots will help temporarily.

This oval thing? Does it look like this one circled in red? Fish lice (Argulus sp.)? It can be green sometimes but lightly. This is my Summers' pic. He and the rest got fish lice before.

FishLice.jpg

Edited by Lupin
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Okay, assuming fish lice is the culprit, this explains the secondary bacterial infections and frequent flashing. On both accounts, the fish can weaken and go downhill very fast unless fish lice is immediately eliminated. Prazi will not kill them. You need dimilin (diflubenzuron) for this. The adult lice need to be removed carefully with tweezers. Apply stresscoat with aloe vera on your hands before handling the fish. No nets.

Re the low pH, low pH causes sloughing of slimecoat so it can add up to your problems. Once slimecoat gets peeled off, it makes skin infections much more prevalent and fish more prone to infections especially with parasites aggravating the issue.

NOTE!

Nakedsnake, I'm heading for bed right now BUT please confirm first your suspicions before you take any course of action that could take a big impact on your fish. Rightly put, don't do anything yet other than do water changes as necessary and monitor water conditions until you get the go-signal. This is a STICKY situation.

Edited by Lupin
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I haven't worked out how to take quotes from different posts yet so I will just answer each here.

CountryLovah, here is a list of meds that I did up a while ago for another forum.

Antiparasitic Treatment Products - Over the Counter

Praziquentel - tablet form only, no liquid or powder

Various products containing formaldehyde & malachite combintion

Acriflavine & Malachite green combination

Trichlorfon - This will kill anchor worms, lice etc

Levimasole (Sold as a pig wormer or sold by a vet. Unsure whether prescription is needed)

Multipurpose Treatment Products - Over the Counter

"...designed to be broadly effective against many of the most common infectious diseases of ornamental freshwater fish, including 'White Spot' (Ichthyophtyrius), 'Velvet' (Oodinium), fungus and superficial bacterial infections"

Aminacrine hydrochloride, mafenide hydrochloride, malachite green combination

Acriflavine, malachite green, methylene blue combination

Brilliant green, formaldehyde solution 37%, malachite green, phenoxyethanol

Other meds

Tri-Sulfa Tablets

Potassium permanganate (Condy's Crystals) Sold at the chemist

Tetracycline

Prescription only meds

Pretty much all other antibiotics including:

Metronidazole (Flagyl)

Baytril

flubenol (flubendazole) Virtually unheard of here except in treatment on a large agricultural scale.

Products NOT available:

Medi-Gold

Metro-Meds

Kanacyn (Kanamycin or kannamycin)

Maracyn, Maracyn 2 Maracyn Plus

Although there are no commericial food options available, I have successfully mixed metro, levamasole and tetracycline into a gel food to treat my fish (not all at once of course)

Lupin, this carbonate hardness stuff that Nakedsnake has is a mixture of potassium hydrogen and sodium bicarbonate as per the MSDS.

Nakedsnake, I have the receipt for the express post satchel somewhere on the floor of my car and I will check it to see if it has a barcode number. I will also ring them as soon as they open and find out what the poop is going on. "Guaranteend next day delivery" My big toe!

Edited by Louiedee83
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Thank you SO much Louise for that list!!! That is SOO helpful!!!!! :-)

Omg... maybe fish lice now?!! This thread is absolutely insane! lololol I know ur camera is bad u say, but see if you can get a picture.. I would hate to dose for fish lice if thats not the case!!!!

I did ask for help from the other mods, so hopefully another one will be in shortly... Today is my daughters birthday so I only have a few seconds..

As for all the possible causes.. Yes, PH can stress fish.. But I agree, lack of lighting and hiding spaces alone would not cause this.. Also your ammonia and nitrite are in check now, but let's not forget that there was a good week or more when the water was not tested... You started doing much more maintence, but before that who knows... I def think some sort of parasite is at work here.. (maybe the fish lice.. but like I said.. I really wanna be sure!!!!!!!!! No point in giving them meds for that if not needed!)

I had a feeling the black ranchu would start showing symptoms eventually.. I'm sorry about that.

I think medicated food here is prob NOT the best best... Considering the fish are finicky eaters at the moment...

As for PH it's fine to go a little higher.. That gives you more of a comfort zone before it creeps back into the 6's.. Just don't go too high too fast...

I still think you should hold off on meds til the salt is gone.. I agree, do a bigger water change this time.. Let's see if we can get it out faster!!!!

As for choice of meds, I do want another mods input but right now my two options I am thinking about are the Tetracycline... (ur PH is perfect for it right now, but if you raise it too high the tetracycline will be ineffective.. So I would aim to keep it around 7.2, 7.4 at the moment). My other med consideration here is the Tri-Sulfa tablets.. Triple Sulfa can be very good for redness/pink.. And the good news is Triple Sulfa can be effective at a higher PH, just in case u go too high.

NakedSnake, can you work on finding a store that sells either of those? Maybe buy them to have on hand, then return them if they go unused?? Do NOT dose either yet thought! I repeat.. DO NOT DOSE EITHER YET! lololol

(One more time??)... I reaaaaaaly want another mods opinion if at all possible here.. Especially with the new potential fish lice issue....

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Thanks, Louise.

Potassium hydrogen appears to be another chemical used aside from sodium bicarbonate to increase the KH. Apparently, this is an alternative to sodium bicarbonate especially as the potassium ions are needed by plants whereas sodium is not.

I'd still measure KH and GH just to be sure though because in large water changes, you are likely to risk having pH swings unless you can carefully match the hardness levels or risk killing your fish in the process.

This is just one of the many situations where I see plenty of issues coming in and out, Sue.doh11.gif

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Oh, and Nakedsnake, can you call your nearest post office and ask them if they have it? If they tried to put it in your letter box and didn't fit, it will be at your post office waiting for you to collect it. The postie may have not left you a card.

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I called AU post and they called the nearest post offices closest to Nakedsnakes address. She told me it has not turned up there. They are formally investigating the issue. They will call if they find out something. On a side note, I went to the denstist today who happens to be in the same building as the AU post that I posted the prazi. The receptionist said that she has tried to send me things in the mail from that post office and I never received any of them. Something screwy is going on.

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Hi Louise, I checked my mailbox and still no Prazi :(

I need to recall this. How long were they kept in a smaller tank before? How many fish were there and how big were they back then? Any changes in filtration between old and new tanks?

Lack of lighting thereof is never an issue. I'd add hiding places though to help calm them down a bit. Perhaps some fake floating plants and terracotta pots will help temporarily.

This oval thing? Does it look like this one circled in red? Fish lice (Argulus sp.)? It can be green sometimes but lightly. This is my Summers' pic. He and the rest got fish lice before.

FishLice.jpg

Lupin, yeah they're similar at least on my pearl. The one on my bubble eye is actually white, but I'm positive the fin edges on her tail is green looking.

- In smaller 16" cube tank, my black ranchu was the first fish he was there from May (6 months), bubble eye came second from June (5+ months), then white lionhead (5 months), then pearl (4 months), then the last addition was red cap oranda (3 weeks) before I moved them to the 4' tank.

- They were pretty much juvenile, considering how large a goldie can get... the longest was my lionhead measured about 3.25".

- Yes, the filters used were different. There were two of them: one was a small internal filter using the black foam Aqua One filter (not carbon) positioned to blow the water at the surface so it creates water turbulence to improve water ability to take in more oxygen, and another was a small hang on the side filter I used using a small thin normal Aqua One white foam filter.

---

Sorry if I'm venting here... but I remember when I was 5-6 yrs old keeping goldfish with my sister... we used only tap water! We didn't understand aquarium salt, aquarium conditioner... we used only tap water!!! We did not have filter, we only use air pump to oxygenate the water. We never soaked the pellets, we used the pellet for months and months. And most of the time, we change the water only when it turns green (it received direct sunlight). The tank was a 10 gallon and we had 2 fish. They're so healthy, they laid eggs.

And my friend had this 5 gallon tank where he used to keep 8 juvenile goldies and one of them died one by one and finally until the last one lived and grew very big in that 5 gallon tank. I became friends with him long after his fish became big.

I mean... how come when we did not give them care, they seem to thrive? And when we add this salt, that water conditioner, add this, add that, test this water, test that water, they became sicker and sicker?

I reckon my mistake was starting the 4' tank without adding any bacteria to cycle... I just left the tank for one week, thinking it was "ready" for the fish. So I removed them from the cube tank to the big tank all 5 of them at once... I think this was the crucial mistake.

Those of you thinking the addition of fish #5 red cap oranda was the culprit, the pet store has a lot of fish and has sold for many years. I also bought fish #3 white lionhead there... and he did not have any parasite.

How come when we did not care for the fish, they seem to live healthy and just fine? Now I'm doing this and that, and their conditions do not improve???

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My apologies for asking too many questions. I'm trying to look at this situation from various angles.

So were each fish quarantined before you introduced them to your older stocks?

Did you confirm yet fish lice are involved? Positive?

If you never quarantined each fish before introducing them to each other, then everyone is actually the culprit, not just your last fish. Fish lice can live for a long time reproducing constantly while undetected. I believe you have substrate. When you make your water changes, be sure to vacuum the substrate thoroughly.

I disagree with your sentiment about your petstore. Are you implying your petstore applied stringent quarantine measures before you bought their fish? If so, how? Like I said earlier, MANY parasites can reproduce under our noses without being detected immediately. Not all petstores know what they are looking for when they see a fish exhibiting unusual symptoms. I never detected fish lice until a week later when I decided to upload my pics into my computer and zooming them in while pondering where the bloody sores of my fish could have come from. That explained the occasional flashing by my oranda, Summers on filter hoses I had witnessed.

Yes, when you leave a tank for a week with nothing else to jumpstart nitrogen cycle, only by the time the fish are added is when you start noticing the nitrogen cycle's eary stages coming into phase. By this time, it is extremely dangerous for any fish especially as ammonia and nitrite would have elevated thus intoxicating them leaving them more prone to health issues especially when stressed.

Were you able to check the post office as Louise suggested?

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First of all I havent read all the thread, it seems like you are being taking care of very well from what I skimmed (cant read it all as I have a splitting migraine). Um..just very worried about temperatures of 40 degrees. It never gets quite that hot where I am in Japan but when the room temp hits 30 degrees I have iced water bottles floating in every tank and replace them every few hours as they melt. Also fans pointed at the surface of the tank water. This is very, very high heat.

Apologies if this has already been dealt with somewhere in the previous 7 pages.

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My apologies for asking too many questions. I'm trying to look at this situation from various angles.

So were each fish quarantined before you introduced them to your older stocks?

Did you confirm yet fish lice are involved? Positive?

If you never quarantined each fish before introducing them to each other, then everyone is actually the culprit, not just your last fish. Fish lice can live for a long time reproducing constantly while undetected. I believe you have substrate. When you make your water changes, be sure to vacuum the substrate thoroughly.

I disagree with your sentiment about your petstore. Are you implying your petstore applied stringent quarantine measures before you bought their fish? If so, how? Like I said earlier, MANY parasites can reproduce under our noses without being detected immediately. Not all petstores know what they are looking for when they see a fish exhibiting unusual symptoms. I never detected fish lice until a week later when I decided to upload my pics into my computer and zooming them in while pondering where the bloody sores of my fish could have come from. That explained the occasional flashing by my oranda, Summers on filter hoses I had witnessed.

Yes, when you leave a tank for a week with nothing else to jumpstart nitrogen cycle, only by the time the fish are added is when you start noticing the nitrogen cycle's eary stages coming into phase. By this time, it is extremely dangerous for any fish especially as ammonia and nitrite would have elevated thus intoxicating them leaving them more prone to health issues especially when stressed.

Were you able to check the post office as Louise suggested?

I'm positive fish lice are involved here...

I vacuum my sand thoroughly every time... besides it's not like they're thick... they're thin layer and easily cleaned by going through line by line. I'm very thorough in cleaning it.

Actually I remember one thing... that when I prepared the 4' tank for that one week (so when they were still living in the 16" cube tank), whenever I did water change I threw in the dirty water to the 4' tank, so there are remains, bacteria from the cube tank to be introduced to the 4' tank...

We cannot check Express posts/ packages as they're not registered in the system. Only Registered posts/ packages can be traced/ located. I know this because I also sell items on eBay and regularly use Australia Post service.

Louise, I am pretty sure (if the system is wrong) it must be on Brisbane end not my area... because in the past one week, I received three packages just fine, a gaming console, two thick books, and an aquarium light. None of them were Express posted though... just regular and registered posted.

Trinket, in the past one week, the temperature has been quite cold actually... like 20-25 degrees Celcius.

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Even if you use dirty water, I doubt however the significant amount of beneficial bacteria involved enough to cycle the tank well unless you were able to transfer the filter media to the new tank. They do not live on the water column necessarily but rather the filters and hard surfaces. It is for this reason that old water (unless new water matches the conditions; except for Old Tank Syndrome cases - non-issue here) should be disposed instead of recycling it. Borrowing established filter media are far much better options here.

Hmmm...Okay, I'll consider the fish lice since you positively confirmed it. A summary as of yesterday to follow unless your goldfish have new behavioral changes again.

Bubble eye

-Found to have fish louse latched on its tail. Confirmed. Typical for all lice. Lice latch mostly on fins and can hide around fin bases, wen growth and even gills.

-Healthy appetite.

-Bottom sitting a lot yesterday.

Pearlscale

-Found flashing occasionally.

-Appetite nearly good but not perfectly good. Still throws up.

Red Cap Oranda

-Same with pearlscale.

-Eats only when food passes in its way.

-Bloody (resultant of pink body). Possible Aeromonas hydrophila.

Lionhead

-Pineconing 100% gone.

-Complete loss of appetite quite evident.

Ranchu

-Throws up the food.

-Bottomsitting and flashing.

Treatments considered:

Praziquantel-Has not arrived from postal service yet. Any chance getting flubenol if prazi doesn't arrive?

Dimilin (diflubenzuron)-For fish lice.

Triple Sulfa-Considered by Sue. Effective for pH at least 7.6 and higher.

Tetracycline-Effective at 7.0 (that is if nakedsnake doesn't increase pH yet)

Medicated foods-Not an option for finicky eaters except perhaps for bubble eye.

Miscellaneous:

Carbonate hardness containing potassium hydrogen and sodium bicarbonate is added to increase the hardness levels and pH.

This comes down to a choice. SUE AND TRINKET! Which should we treat first? Fish lice or suspected bacterial problem? Fish lice may have been responsible for this secondary bacterial infection. It always does and is far more dangerous in my experience. For fish lice, dimilin is the right choice of treatment. I wish we could use the other alternative I was thinking of to eliminate BOTH flukes and fish lice but it is more dangerous so I won't mention it at this point since the fish are severely weakened already. I may have to discuss this with Sue and Imo privately if they oblige so we can come up with a straight treatment plan. I can't afford to make mention much of it here until it is agreed or we'll run pages again trying to plan this out.doh11.gif

I'll get back to you on this, Nakedsnake. Will PM Sue and Imo the summary right away!

00000945.gif

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Lupin, thanks a lot, what you said is spot on... you didn't give up when I almost did lol...

Cuz I've spent more in the past two weeks than I had in the first 6 months... my expense is reminding me of my marine setups... I remember when I spent $1000 north just for a pitiful 15 gallon tank and two fish.

And now this Prazi stuff is stressing me out... I am also considering moving out of my apartment, having to pay new bond before my current bond is returned by this current apartment. And I am investing to buy a house within one year.

These $20, $25, $15, $30, $16 expenses are getting to me and they're not getting better. I jsut bought another aquarium salt CountryLovah suggested. And I have to buy more? Where am I supposed to get:

- Dimilin (diflubenzuron)-For fish lice.

- Triple Sulfa-Considered by Sue. Effective for pH at least 7.6 and higher.

- Tetracycline-Effective at 7.0 (that is if nakedsnake doesn't increase pH yet)

- Medicated foods-Not an option for finicky eaters except perhaps for bubble eye.

Sorry to be a pain when you're only trying to help but these are killing me. I am seriously thinking about returning all of them to my pet store... maybe the lady who cares about the goldies can treat them better... and sell them again when they are healthy.

These back to back to back happenings are turning me off... the fish not getting better, the Prazi not arriving, the fish lice, the water change, the fish stressing out whenever I approach the tank to check their conditions, and in turn stressing me out too... I seriously skipped my lunch just to change water and have enough time to pack an item for an eBay buyer and post in time before the Australia Post closes.

Edited by nakedsnake
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Round green things could be fish lice. Can you get a picture of it? Does it look anything like this?:

http://www.aquariuml...s-fish-lice.jpg

Or this?:

http://www.bonniespl...us/IMG_2223.jpg

Nice call Sakura.

And hi again nakedsnake, I have now read the whole thread...

Lice are the parasites that are most itchy of all. They literally send the fish beserk swimming frantically to shake them off. And they breed like..well..like lice really ...:(

You need DIMILIN ASAP.

And yes you can get it in Australia, amy store should have it.

Your tank is not cycled and so any meds are going to be very hard to dose and deal with. You need to dose dimilin for about 2 weeks but during that time you will need to check water daily for ammonia and nitrites. These will kill your fish with dimilin in too.

Im also really worried about argalyte sand with goldies. It is so fine and many fishkeepers say it is an irritant to the fishes slimecoat and gills.

:testkit:

Please let us know your tank water params so your helpers here can talk you through re-cycling.

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thanxsn.gif for chiming in, Trinket. I was hoping you would after sending you the PM.Flowers.gif You haven't missed a thing at all.00001649.gif

Your words are worth listening to. I agree with you so far and admittedly, this was my first thought too but I was "pulling my hair" a bit trying to weigh down if this really should be the first move despite the serious bacterial infections already inflicted on the poor fish. Considering fish lice are responsible for tearing off the skin and slimecoat, it only makes sense that they are obviously the MAIN issue that need to be eliminated first before anything else is done. Like in my experience, they are quite adept at going unnoticed for a long time.

Don't forget to quarantine your future new fish if you plan to buy more after issues are resolved, Nakedsnake.noel.gif

Hopefully, this will end the chapter of problems.gudluksn.gif

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And yes you can get it in Australia, amy store should have it.

I'm sorry, but I am going to disagree here. It is not available in any aquarium shop or pet shop. It is available to the agricultural community as a sheep and cattle dip. A friend of mine in Melbourne tried to ask her vet for a product with the same active constituents and she could not get it for a small scale application. I was looking for it for a long time and with no luck.

Our only other option for lice, anchor worms etc is the Trichlorfon. Lupin, I think Betty and Silke had some luck with the PP solution?

Edited by Louiedee83
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So I just say "Dimilin" and they will know what I'm talking about? Do I get it from a fish store or pharmacy? Are they expensive?

Trinket, the sand I use is not the sand you find in beach... this is very fine white rock, the size of rough kitchen salt. They're heavy, so when you stir them in the water, they settle quickly without clouding the water. Obviously, when bought first time, they were a bit cloudy, so just like you cook rice, you rinse the rice first, throw out the cloudy water, and so I kept doing it until it's clean and nothing floats.

I'd been using the same sand when they were in the 16" cube tank too... but of course when I moved them to the 4' tank, I threw out the sand to the bin... I don't think using the same sand from old tank to new tank is a good idea. Bacteria would have died when I remove them.

I have also kept marine tank before, and I'm positive this is not the sand they use for marine set ups... that'd be live sand that looks brownish, and this is not live at all and looks clean white. I understand your concern, because the live sand they use for marine setup is very light and it takes long time when the sand is disturbed to settle back on the bottom. This one is heavy and it settles down quickly.

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Dimilin is just a trade name. Seldom used now maybe. It has other generic names and is in some Australian meds

Heres a quote from lirpa- I think shes in Australia:

I haev only treated them for flukes once from when I first got Lulu. I have para-cide though because I could not find Prazi here in any of the aquarium shops. I went to heaps looking for prazi and had to get para-cide. one tablet treats 40 ltrs, so I had to use two tablets. And it treats for flukes, anchor worm and lice.

Also Fishmerised and Mads and Dan in Aus I believe have treated for lice. Will track some more posts now...

There are definitely meds for lice in Australia nakedsnake, you will have to ask at the store what they have. We have had hundreds of cases of lice in the forums over the years where Australians have treated their fish for lice I assure you.

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Dimilin is just a trade name. Seldom used now maybe. It has other generic names and is in some Australian meds

Heres a quote from lirpa- I think shes in Australia:

I haev only treated them for flukes once from when I first got Lulu. I have para-cide though because I could not find Prazi here in any of the aquarium shops. I went to heaps looking for prazi and had to get para-cide. one tablet treats 40 ltrs, so I had to use two tablets. And it treats for flukes, anchor worm and lice.

Also Fishmerised and Mads and Dan in Aus I believe have treated for lice. Will track some more posts now...

There are definitely meds for lice in Australia nakedsnake, you will have to ask at the store what they have. We have had hundreds of cases of lice in the forums over the years where Australians have treated their fish for lice I assure you.

Trinket, Para-cide's active ingredient is the Trichlorfon. Dimilin's active ingredient is Diflubenzuron. Both will work, but the para-cide is much much harsher.

Edited by Louiedee83
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Louise, I wasn't going to suggest trichlorfon at first because assuming powder is more accessible, it's a bit stronger than dimilin and I thought the Australians could have easy access to it and it was exactly the other option that I had considered. I've used the liquid form which is less concentrated than powder coupled with instructions already set and repackaged by a local company. It effectively obliterated all flukes, fish lice and anchorworms. None of my fish reacted badly although a few showed red veins for awhile until it went away after a few hours. Handle trichlorfon with care please because regardless of the form, I react very badly from it. I accidentally wiped my cheek with it and suffered a mild allergic reaction. Use gloves.

Edited by Lupin
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Argulus feed by stinging the host fish with their proboscis and sucking fluids out. This causes the fish to swim erratically and display that unique bizarre kind of "Ive been stung" flashing which is well described by naked snake in his first few posts.

The fish are damaged by the repeated injections of lice enzymes and often viral and bacterial infections too.

Argulus have a life cycle of 30 days or so, eggs hatch in gravel and round the tank and can hatch out randomly within 10 to 50 days.

The life cycle in a heavy infestataion is hard to beat, it is probably best to act fast with whatever you can get.

I suggest SINCE you are not actually cycled anyway that you break down this tank and PP it or DRY it out completely for at least a week since larval forms will not survive a week without water. Both disinfecting and drying out would be safest.

The fish then need treating in a separate tank with daily full water changes and whatever meds you can get fastest that kill lice.

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Thanks Trinket, I'm gonna get Para-cide tomorrow and kill these "annoying pests". I don't think I can do drying thing though... it's just too much effort... I have things to do. My mind is exhausted from having to deal with this the last couple of weeks... the daily water change twice... etc.

So if Prazi can't kill lice, can Para-cide kill both lice and parasites? Do I need to buy Prazi if I get Para-cide? Thanks :)

Edited by Tinkokeshi
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No hun, it treats for flukes too so you wouldnt need prazi.

Heres a link so you know what you are looking for but if they dont have it just get what you can that treats for lice as its kinda urgent!!

http://www.theaquariumshop.com.au/shopexd.asp?id=115&name=Aquarium Science Anti-Parasite Tablet Fish Medicatio

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