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M*gic

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The more I am seeing through this, the more I feel like my mind is swimming through wavy air.

Oookkkayyy...I'll try this once more.

1. Nakedsnake, you ARE using Aquasonic salt. The dosage is obviously different at teaspoon per 2.6 US gallons. This is NOT what Sue and I suggested earlier. Like Sue asked you earlier, get AQUARIUM salt, NOT Aquasonic salt. Obviously, the dosage is a tad lower than the standard teaspoon per gallon because this is NOT the actual salt we wanted you to use. It should not be dosed at teaspoon per gallon standard per that instructions.

I apologize for the confusion on this one. I should have known before you were using Aquasonic salt and not the aquarium salt. Get a blue box of salt by API. Do a water change to remove Aquasonic salt and redose with aquarium salt following the standard dosage we often recommend which is teaspoon per gallon. Add two more sets on 12 hour interval each.

We ARE perfectly sure of 0.3% measurement but ONLY if the salt used is the one we suggested, not Aquasonic.

2. pH is unusually low. Test your KH (carbonate hardness) and GH (general hardness). What brand of test kits did you use? pH is very low. This is why I ask for the KH and GH results. Get API brand on all accounts to ensure readings are perfectly accurate and reassuring.

3. Regarding epsom salt, just stick to 1/4 teaspoon per 10g, Sue.:)

Hope this clears everything up.

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Lupin,

1.) I have started reducing salt... I just did 20% water change without adding salt at all. I think I saw a normal white aquarium salt just now, so will buy it tomorrow. How do I administer it now the Aquasonic salt is still in the tank? Just totally reduce the current salt to 0% through water change and add the new salt to 0.3% again, or simply replace the water in the tank with the new aquarium salt?

2.) I didn't realize what brand was it but I got the API pH test kit :) I just added the carbonate hardness (about 1/2 teaspoon) and will test it tonight or tomorrow.

3.) So you're saying I should add 1/4 teaspoon per 10 gallon for the dropsy fish? Instead of separating them, is it okay to just put him in the same tank as the others and add the epsom salt in the tank? Who knows the other fish are developing dropsy as well?

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What I would do in this situation is firstly, we need to remove Aquasonic salt COMPLETELY out of the tank. Aquasonic still contains sodium chloride but we want to make sure we are accurately maintaining the saline solution level so we have to start from scratch again to avoid aggravated issues due to unusually jumpy salt levels. This can be done easily by doing small partial water changes for now (without adding any salt). Once you are sure you removed all of Aquasonic salt, start dosing 0.1% (one teaspoon per gallon) of aquarium salt. Follow process until it reaches 0.3% again. This will take at least 3-4 days before you can manage everything completely. We have to take it slow as salt changes can cause osmotic stress.

What's this "carbonate hardness" substance you are using? Sodium bicarbonate? Calcium carbonate?

No, don't involve others on epsom salt. Treat the dropsied fish SEPARATELY.

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The brand of carbonate hardness is Aquasonic... it doesn't say whether it's sodium or calcium... All it says is carbonate hardness generator (freshwater & marine).

"Application: The Carbonate Hardness (kH) or also referred to as alkalinity of water is the basis for pH values. The stability of pH can be ensured by raising carbonate hardness levels without effect on general hardness. Acids produced in closed circuit aquaria continuously reduce the carbonate hardness levels. These acids result from two prime sources. 1. Acids produced from biological assimilation of wasters. 2. Acids produced from livestock (directly and via respiration).

Prior raising of carbonate levels will avert drastic falls in pH resultant from these acids, acting to maintain a more stable pH. Raising of carbonate hardness levels is also beneficial to plant growth and is a viable alternative to CO2 dosing.

Carbonate Hardness Generator is a special blend of pH buffers that provide a sustained kH level for longer than if using just sodium bicarbonate."

Oh... and the Prazi tablets didn't arrive today. Maybe tomorrow... jesus.

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I dunno if I am convinced by this stuff. As long as it's calcium carbonate, it might just work. Do you have crushed corals? I'd personally use this one. Much more stable. Other choices include limestones and crushed seashells.

Hmmm..Re the prazi, what time is it there now? 5PM?

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^Have you been to Australia? You seem to know a lot of stuff here like postmen only do until 5PM

Yeah I just re-checked my mail box and positive, no Prazi! And I used Express!!!

But I notice my red lionhead pinecone is reducing... he had pinecone on his backbone, the rear belly... now the one on backbone has disappeared and turned back to normal... the one on belly is still pineconed though.

Thanks for helping me Lupin and CountryLovah :) I appreciate it mates...

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What I would do in this situation is firstly, we need to remove Aquasonic salt COMPLETELY out of the tank. Aquasonic still contains sodium chloride but we want to make sure we are accurately maintaining the saline solution level so we have to start from scratch again to avoid aggravated issues due to unusually jumpy salt levels. This can be done easily by doing small partial water changes for now (without adding any salt). Once you are sure you removed all of Aquasonic salt, start dosing 0.1% (one teaspoon per gallon) of aquarium salt. Follow process until it reaches 0.3% again. This will take at least 3-4 days before you can manage everything completely. We have to take it slow as salt changes can cause osmotic stress.

I agree... Based on the different TYPES of salt, I think this is the best plan.. Better than doing a full water change and replacing all at once... I've changed my mind lol I would TOTALLY follow this advice!!!

:exactly

Wait...If it were me actually ..I might modify it just a bit.... I think what I would do is a few partial water changes to remove the MAJORITY of the Aquasonic, then right before starting the new regular white salt I would do a full 100% water change. You will have already dropped the salt level down to a minimum through the partial water changes, then the one final 100% change ensures that any remaining salt is gone.. Then start replacing the new salt EXACTLY like Lupin said.. 1 teaspoon per gallon at first. (60) Then 12 hours later an additional teaspoon per gallon (Bringing your total to 120tsp), then 12 hours later an additional teaspoon per gallon. (Bringing your total to 180)..

3.) So you're saying I should add 1/4 teaspoon per 10 gallon for the dropsy fish? Instead of separating them, is it okay to just put him in the same tank as the others and add the epsom salt in the tank? Who knows the other fish are developing dropsy as well?

I realize Lupin answered this, but it needs to be stressed! NO! Do not dose ALL the fish with Epsom!!! Epsom should be for the pineconed fish ONLY.. Use JUST epsom for the pineconed fish in a SEPERATE tank that does not contain any of the other salts!

Normally dropsy (which is what the pineconing is) is not contagious... THat doesn't mean other fish wont have it happen, because dropsy is a SYMPTOM of a problem. Not an actual disease.. But your fish won't "catch" it from the other fish.. SO seperate the pineconed fish immediatley and use epsom salts ONLY on that fish!

I dunno if I am convinced by this stuff. As long as it's calcium carbonate, it might just work. Do you have crushed corals? I'd personally use this one. Much more stable. Other choices include limestones and crushed seashells

Again, I hate that certain products are not available everywhere. Personally I always recommend Buff It Up from Goldfish Connection. But...you can't get that there!! GGGGRRRRRRR!

Other than Buff It Up, the only product I have had experience with to increase PH is Seachem Alkaline Buffer.... I've used that many many times at the pet store, and if I remember correctly it is designed to not only adjust PH, but KH and GH as wel.... (well besides natural methods like crushed coral and the like)...

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Shrewd guess on the timezone, Nakedsnake but don't forget I regularly correspond with my global peers when help is most needed. Australia is 2-3 hours away from my local timezone.

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Regarding tablespoon-teaspoon conversion rate, for Australians, it is not 3 teaspoons per tablespoon (standard US measurement) but 4 teaspoons. We're one teaspoon off which means the salt could have been added by one more teaspoon! Nakedsnake, did you know this measurement before? This was clarified to me by my friend who sent the prazi.

Question on this..... Because if it is true that there it is 4 tsp per tbs... it could go either way... I don;t know how I want to say this so it is not confusing..

Are the TEASPOONS in Australia actually the same size, except in Australia the size of the TABLESPOON is larger (making it equivilent to 4 teaspoons)

Or is the TABLESPOONS the same size, but they use a smaller "teaspoon" so that to them 4 teaspoons equals a tablespoon..

DO u see the distinction?? lolol

Also.....I just saw your update Nakedsnake.. If the pineconing is going down then u can keep the fish with the others... Any chance u can get a photo of the pineconing??? I think it would be smart to go ahead and set up a hospital tank now, in case things get worse again.... Get the water, temperature stable.. Maybe add some media from the main tank to it.. You know, get it prepared in case the fish gets worse again. Or if another fish shows signs? Wouldn't hurt to be ready for whatever comes.

Thanks for helping me Lupin and CountryLovah :) I appreciate it mates...

You are very welcome! :-)

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Hi everyone,

I am Lupin's friend from Australia, the one that sent Nakesnake the Prazi. I've been following this thread and I'd like to answer the query about the AU teaspoon/tablespoon.

CountryLovah, you were right the first time. Our teaspoons are roughly the same size, but the AU tablespoon is larger than the US tablespoon in that there are 4 teaspoons (5ml/5g) to 1 tablespoon (20ml/20g), rather that your 3 teaspoons (which would make up roughly only 15ml/g to the tablespoon).

I find is easier (seeing as we use the metric system) when using large amounts of salt, to weigh it. 1 gram per litre of water = 0.1%. Can't lose count of the teaspoons when it's weighed. :)

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Hi Louie, thanks again for sending me the item although I still haven't got it. Did you send it via Express?

I changed 25% water (no salt) yesterday and added a teaspoon of that carbonate hardness and I noticed the pinecone on the lionhead subsided. And after coming home from work at night, I changed another 25% water (no salt) and this morning the pinecone is totally gone!!! :D Well I just have to maintain the water quality I guess.

CountryLovah, I will buy new salt, and would do what you suggested about the water change.

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I just checked the pH level and it's now at 7.0 wow I guess one teaspoon of carbonate hardness really enough for a 4' tank.

I also noticed yesterday my red lionfish was bloated, like his stomach and body part swelled like a disproportionate balloon, but today when the pinecone is gone, the body size reduced down considerably back to normal size. But what's concerning me now is between the scales I can see traces of blood. Like it's bleeding all over the body, because obviously it was not like this before... it's reddening.

My "immune" black ranchu is now showing signs of being affected. He's now sleeping all day at the bottom, barely moving, and shows signs of flashing a little bit. But he still looks a lot better than the others when they were infected.

Red cap oranda's white body is turning pink, could this be internal blood?

Pearl is doing better... he's still scared of me though.

Bubble eye is in the best shape since she got sick... she's eating now but doing a lot of bottom-sitting today than yesterday.

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I had been mulling this since this morning gathering again the data from previous incidences to match the actual issues here.

What are your water parameters right now?

Has prazi arrived yet?

I am beginning to suspect flukes are somehow very much involved here. I wish prazi has already arrived.:(

Regarding the reddening and bleeding, subsequent reaction to dropsy as you already noted, bacterial infection, possibly Aeromonas hydrophila is somehow involved here and quite. If flukes had set on here before (which I also note with regards to you black ranchu's onset of unusual behavioral patterns particularly bottom sitting and flashing), then there is no doubt the bacteria was able to seep through the blood vessels resulting in profuse bleeding. The same can be said with the oranda.

The best route seems to be to treat everyone with prazi and/or antibiotics. We can't take chances with flukes persisting and causing secondary infections.

Louise has noted there is not an option for MediGold, Kanamycin (in whatever form), Metromeds (substitute metronidazole by prescription only) and Maracyn products. What is your pH right now, Nakedsnake? I am mulling the suggestion of tetracycline. DON'T TREAT YET.

Sue, any thoughts please?

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I am getting a little nervous about this prazi not turning up. I sent it express Monday morning but because I was on my way to work and in a hurry, I didn't think to take the barcode so it could be tracked. I would have expected delays because of the public holiday but it should definitely be there by now. OMG, I hope it isn't lost.

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CountryLovah, you were right the first time. Our teaspoons are roughly the same size, but the AU tablespoon is larger than the US tablespoon in that there are 4 teaspoons (5ml/5g) to 1 tablespoon (20ml/20g), rather that your 3 teaspoons (which would make up roughly only 15ml/g to the tablespoon

Thanks for that!!! That really helps clear things up for me! :-) And welcome to the board!!! It's great to have you here!!!:-)

What is your pH right now, Nakedsnake? I am mulling the suggestion of tetracycline. DON'T TREAT YET.

Lupin.... I agree that given the recent changes, including the blood, the pineconing/swelling (Yes it has gone down, but... obviously there was still an issue), the pink body.... something more is probably going to be needed in this case... But it does make things SO difficult being that there are less medication choices here..

I have a few ideas.... but... I think I would like to get another Mod in on this as well... Let me see if we can get Imo's opinion on this one...

Yes before anything... Current PH (it determines whether tetracycline is a good choice....) if the PH is still in range, this MAY be the best bet given the few choices of meds).. And any other current water conditions you can give us... As Lupin said do NOT add any meds yet (other than the prazi if it comes)

Also.... I think we should get that strange salt out b4 starting any meds.. How far are you in removing it NakedSnake????

I would start the Prazi ASAP when it arrives.. Its compatible with salt.. so as soon as u get that I would use it...

Louise- what other med options ARE there for you guys?? Are API medications available to you?? Any medicated foods...(I realize no to the MediGold, MetroMeds, but anything else?) Can u get any type of sulfa meds there?

Nakedsnake - how many of your fish are eating well at the moment? (Trying to decide if medicated food would even work with your fish if it is an option)

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Okay, first is the Prazi has not arrived... I don't know what's going on. Unfortunately, here you can't track Express packages/ letters... only Registered packages/ letters can be tracked.

If my colour reading is correct, pH is at 7.0 right now... all fish seem to be calmer now... I have done 20% water changes twice everyday using just Prime and no salt. I guess the salt concentration (rough guess) should be down from 0.275% to 0.15% now... could be less. Will do water change in much bigger quantity tomorrow.

Good news is I'm positive the pinecone on the red lionhead is all gone !!! :)

Bad news is the condition of red cap oranda seems not getting better, its body is pinkish, I really think it's blood inside covered by its white skin. AND the immune black ranchu is OFFICIALLY sick now. He's sleeping a lot or is it bottom sitting... looks a lot like people who suffer from flu and decide to sleep it off. I caught him flashing and doing the all too familiar symptom.

Bubble eye - is having huge appetite, I put in the Goldie frozen and she ate em all... I notice there's a round greenish thing (quite big actually, about 4mm in diameter) sticking on her tail... and the edges of the tail fin looks green... is it fungus??

Pearl - can flash a little bit, but looks calmer... and eats a little bit when the food sinks close to him and at times throws up the foods

Red cap oranda - like pearl only eats when a food "flies" by her but most of the time she just ignores food.

Red lionhead - pinecone is 100% gone! But he doesn't eat at all. Completely ignores food.

Black ranchu - food happens to flies by his mouth, and he happens to "breathe" and munch in the food... he didn't throw it up which is a good thing... all the other foods I intentionally sank near him are eaten by bubbleeye. I guess I will try to feed him in the fish net tomorrow. I'm not doing this because he usually just throws up everything when I feed him in the net.

---

If the Prazi does not arrive tomorrow, I guess I'll buy a substitute. I'm dying here my fish are dying and this happens. Just my luck... :(

Edited by nakedsnake
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Good grief! Any pics of the bubble eye's "green" area? Fungus normally isn't green but it's possible it could be. They're rarer in general compared to bacterial infections.

I'm sorry the prazi hasn't arrived yet.:( I hope it does though. I'd hate to hear it delayed too long for an express or worse, not arrive at all.

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Hmmm... I can no longer edit the previous post, but I'd like to add...

I read goldfish likes 7.6 pH, should I push to that level?

Regarding feeding, what should I do to them? Should I just fast them (except for the bubble eye) since their appetite is low anyway, or should I entice the sick ones to eat? If yes, what is the best food? Meat? Green? Frozen? Pellets? Bloodworms? They seem to take to bloodworms, but should I feed them bloodworms everyday? Is duck weed a good idea...? But noone comes to the surface anymore... so it could be pointless?

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Nakedsnake, did you ever find out yet what your KH and GH are? Test them first before you push your pH changes or you risk crashing your pH. I'm a bit leery to advise you increasing your pH because we are talking about a vague product called carbonate hardness which NEVER elaborated what exactly it is composed of.

Click this link for better understanding of the relationship between pH and hardness levels.

http://www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/hardness.htm

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Good grief! Any pics of the bubble eye's "green" area? Fungus normally isn't green but it's possible it could be. They're rarer in general compared to bacterial infections.

I'm sorry the prazi hasn't arrived yet.:( I hope it does though. I'd hate to hear it delayed too long for an express or worse, not arrive at all.

I also notice there is a similar round oval thing on the tail of my pearl!!! It doesn't look green though (white).

My camera is not good enough to take pics up that close... but they're pretty big considering the size of the goldie.

Lupin, if my bacteria cycle is fine (ammonia - 0, nitrite - 0, nitrate - 10ppm), could all these sickness be caused by the low pH? But I WONDER if low pH is really the problem (they say water my area is really low in alkalinity)... why WASN'T this a problem when they were still in the 16" cube tank ?

A few important notes and "X-factors" I have to mention:

- The lady shop keeper who seems very knowledgeable about goldie says it could be my canister filter that is dirty and needs cleaning. She stresses to quickly clean them using tank water... not tap water. I did clean it yesterday.

- My tank did not have lighting... could this be a problem? I never close the curtain so it's quite bright during the day, but could be slightly slightly dark when it's cloudy. But yesterday, my light arrived from post so I have been using the light now.

- My tank has no "hiding place"... could stress be a cause to the sickness when I approach the tank and they freak out? I guess I should buy a big ornament/ big plastic plant so when I come near they can hide behind it.

So if ammonia, nitrite and nitrate are not the problem, then it's the pH is the only cause???

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