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M*gic

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Nakedsnake, what you must do right now is send me your FULL ADDRESS and EMAIL in my profile page. You can't PM right now due to insufficient number of posts (minimum of 200). Send me those details ASAP and I'll forward them to my friend. She will respond to you as soon as she gets the details. If you can send me the details tonight or tomorrow first thing, she can forward you your prazi on Monday.

If you already forwarded a message to my profile page, please indicate it HERE and I will immediately extract the information and delete the post you made so the private details won't be divulged in public.

If you want to give it a shot to ask your petshops again, prazi is available as "Aqua-Worm" by Aquarium Science or "Flukes & Tapeworm Tabs" by Aquamaster.

Selling price:

25 tabs (treats 500L; Flukes & Taperworm Tabs)-$17

100 tabs (treats HEAPS; Aqua-Worm)-$70

These are from different stores so it would be cheaper if you choose to buy multiple bottles of 25 tablets.

Regular post is $5 and should arrive after 3 days. Overnight express is $8.

Edited by Lupin
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Lupin, that's fine, I put my address here since I'm moving out soon (in 3+ weeks) anyway. So I might have to start a thread on how to move fish soon. :)

My address is:

- 9/ 45 Robe Street

- St. Kilda, 3182

- Victoria

- Australia

I'll get the 17 tabs + express post. So total is $25? How should I pay your friend?

Let me know once you've got my address down, I'll just remove it later...

Thanks Lupin, I can't thank you enough for helping me, my bubble eye still bottom sits but today she's finally eaten something (actually a lot since I forced her). All fish are eating... now my biggest concern is the red lionhead who seems to get it the worst now, he's eating but can't seem to get the foods right on target.

---

Can you also let me know how these worms and parasites attack them they look to be vry much in pain? Do they attack the goldies in their gills, fins or inside their body?? I'm curious...

Thanks again for the help :heart

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^Thanks Lupin :) you helped me a lot

My pearlie and red lionhead are having nightmarish suffering night now... and my white lionhead who's recovered, seems to be gasping but healthy, swimming and going to surface to beg for foods... now is it a sign of too much salt? It's at 0.25% now.

How do I reduce salt??

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Have we already established which parasites are possibly the culprits other than flukes? Flukes come in different varieties but usually, gill and skin flukes are most prevalent. There is also eye flukes but eye flukes are rarer to come by compared to gill and skin flukes. These cannot be detected ACCURATELY however without a microscope but they are still, regardless of the circumstances, prevalent among goldfish so praziquantel is indeed most needed here. They can be characterized by listlessness of the host, bottom sitting, constant gasping and flicking. I'm hoping the prazi will arrive as soon as possible by your door. Good luck on this one!

Have you already obtained a test kit? I still haven't found out what your ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and pH are. Please please get the API liquid drops already! Without the water parameters, it's difficult for us to rule out if water conditions may somehow be involved here. It's like fighting for somethin blindly without even knowing what it is.

I've lost track of a few more vital things. I'll try to go by assumptions on some things. My memory hinges me sometimes.

If your tank is not receiving seemingly adequate surface movements, then it could cause gasping of your fish due to oxygen depletion. Ammonia and salt also tend to be responsible for that but it can be AGGRAVATED by inadequate oxygen supply. Have you done a water change today?

What I would do right now is buy API liquid drops, do another water change and redose salt again per water volume replaced earlier. Salt solution can only be reduced by water changes but please keep track of the water volume you replace. Constant changes of saline solution and failing to track the actual measurement can only aggravate your fish's issues.

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Lupin, I use "Prime" water conditioner. It's highly recommended by my local LFS which staff seem to genuinely care about customers' fish (unlike stores which normally just want to sell their products). They are also knowledgeable to me unlike other fish stores' staff who again just want to sell and give as brief info as possible about fish.

Where can I find "API" one?

I have marked the side of my tank with a tape, so when water evaporates, I know exactly how much water I should add, and when I change water, I know exactly how much water I should put in. I know I can gradually reduce the salt by replacing the water in the tank now with water with less salt... but how would I know what level of salt I'm at after those water changes? Right now I'm at 0.25%, how do I know when I hit 0.2%, 0.175%? I have a barometer that I used for my marine tank about one year ago, can that help?

Your friend e-mailed me today :) I gave her my address, and how to transfer her the payment etc. Thanks a lot! :)

I will test my water at LFS today :testkit:

---

Off topic: just curious do you keep marine fish as well? You live in Malaysia? Are you Malaysian?

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No, I'm a Filipino, not Malaysian. I've kept marine fish before although my experience is very limited having never ventured further on it after a solid two years of keeping them.

The API should be available in your petstores. Could you ask them to order a master kit for you? Try eBay as well.

The Prime is absolutely the best dechlorinator. No aloe vera too which could suffocate your fish otherwise.

Barometer? This is an instrument for weather changes. What you need is a refractometer.

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I didn't have time to go yesterday, so I'll go today to see if they have API and test my water.

Now all five of my fish (except the black ranchu) are now sick. The white lionhead who recovered a few days ago now on her side at the bottom, my pearl and red cap oranda also went nuts flashing and darting around the tank. The bubble eye doesn't dart anymore although she still itches now and then.

I just can't wait for the fluke tablet to arrive from your friend, Lupin, it seems to be the only hope. Just when I thought the salt was really helping...

---

Now I can't help but suspect the whole parasite sickness thing has A LOT TO DO with the fish being shocked. And the shock has A LOT TO DO with me/ my movement around the tank. I've told before in my previous post that my tank has only a glass cup and small potted plant for the fish to hide into. The tank is pretty much open to its outside/ people's movement. I pass the aquarium a lot as it is positioned in the middle of my room, which is also where I work daily (sell on eBay), and busy around. At times, when I pass the tank and throw a glance, the fish just went nuts... It happens too often that I can't help but ask myself... is it because me? Is it because I brisk around the tank and my movement around the tank stresses them? After all, I'm a giant and they're the Hobbits in the tank, seeing a giant outside your world up close must be pretty intimidating at times...

What am I supposed to do whenever I come close to the tank? Tip-toeing like a child sneaking out at night so the dad wouldn't know? Are my movements really shocking them?

I'm pretty CONVINCED after today when after I came to the room from the kitchen, approaching the tank normally, THREE of my fish (red cap oranda, pearl, and white lionhead) simultaneously jolted out of shock, or is it fear? As if I was a gigantic piranha approaching them ready to eat them. They're so much in shock as if I was RUNNING to the tank, instead of approaching normally. They're so much in shock they literally went sideways (like fish on the verge of dying) for a good 1-2 minutes before they position normally again. I then observed my pearlie from my bed, and he seemed to breathe normally and bottom sit, but when I "showed up"/ approached the tank, the breathing very noticeably got harder and harder as if I was gonna eat him.

I cannot help but feel pretty pissed... after all I have done, feeding them everyday off my finger, and they all seemed tame, but now they went nuts whenever I come close to the tank... so they are tame only because they know they're getting food? They think I'm a big threat to them? I wouldn't lie, I feel like they're turning their back on me just because they are sick. No matter how sick, I CANNOT be the reason why their sickness is worse...

But, again, I'm convinced that whenever I approach the tank, I trigger something bad like some fish goes nuts because they think I'm gonna eat/ harm them... they dart like crazy.

And my suspicion is further validated that the only fish who doesn't seem to be affected by the whole "parasite" thing is my black BLIND ranchu. He's perfectly healthy, doesn't itch, doesn't dart, doesn't go crazy... perfectly healthy goldie. Well, he can't see so he can't see when I come close to the tank, or walked around the tank. Six fish, and only one fish is not affected and he's blind!

I wouldn't want to keep fish/ pets that feel like I'm a threat to them when I have taken care of them everyday feeding them off my finger... I'm totally frustrated... and sort of disgusted/ disappointed. All that mixture.

Maybe I should buy all the cute black ranchus without eyes, I mean they wouldn't be terrified when I come around the tank.

Edited by nakedsnake
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My white lionhead passed away shortly after I posted my last post.

Now my pearl and red cap oranda are hit the hardest... they're skeetering the bottom like a car driven by a totally drunk person. The face of my pearl is in so much pain it just hurts to just watch... to be honest I don't think he'll make it to Tuesday when the Prazi tablets arrive on Tuesday.

Bubble eye and red lionhead seem to be improving although they still hang out at the bottom. I forced them to eat in the fish net (still under water) and they ate everything like a totally healthy goldie and they looked totally hungry with great appetite. But once I released them to the tank, they threw up everything they ate. But the eyes and face look clear like a healthy goldie.

Again, my black blind ranchu is the only fish TOTALLY UNAFFECTED by everything going on in the last 2 weeks. My other 5 fish are on life support, yet this fish is totally healthy.

---

What could be the reason???

- When the first fish was hit by the disease, I thought I must accidentally have left a cord of electricity and something electrocuted the water... but this couldn't be as my other 5 fish were perfectly healthy at the time

- I then thought it could be soap contamination from my strong handwash Palmolive Antiseptic, but again my black ranchu is totally fine although he is in constant contact with my hands as much as any fish in the tank, so this can't be the reason.

- I then thought could it be the bucket where I prepare my water for water changes could contain some poison I got it free from my local fish store... but again my black ranchu is perfectly healthy, so this is not the reason.

- Is it really the ###### bloody parasites? How is one fish perfectly healthy although he lives with 5 "parasite"-infected mates in the tank for 2 weeks?

- Finally I thought it could be me/ humans' movement around the tank. They might just be intimidated by "giants" moving around the tank like hungry carnivore ready to eat them. This seems to be the most logical reason yet, as my perfectly healthy ranchu happens to be blind. I don't think it's the wen, he doesn't have much of it, he just doesn't have eyeballs or at least I can't spot them. And he moves like a blind fish and can't spot food in front of him like other fish can, and he is the main reason I feed the whole tank daily for the past 6 months off my finger. How else is he gonna eat his pellets?

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Some pictures...

My tank...

fish.jpg

Sick fish (from left to right: my pearl or is it ryukin, bubble eye, red lionhead, red cap oranda)... the pearl and lionhead were healthy just a few days ago

fish2.jpg

My pearl is swimming literally round and round

fish3.jpg

My red lionhead, just helpless against the disease

fish4.jpg

My pearl is upside down in this pic...

fish5.jpg

fish6.jpg

fish10.jpg

My black blind ranchu, the only healthy fish in the tank

fish8.jpg

fish7.jpg

fish9.jpg

Such a letdown, I always thought I am a pretty good fish keeper, this happens... I'm pretty down :cry1

I just hope the Prazi tablets will arrive soon, they're the only hope.

Edited by nakedsnake
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Okay now, this thought crosses my mind.

The group, although crowded in their previous 16" cube tank, were perfectly healthy and happy.

Then I bought the 4' tank, washed (with aquarium salt, NO SOAP) and rinsed it thoroughly, washed and rinsed sand thoroughly, prepare the water conditioned with Prime and salt and leave it running. Then after one week, I transported ALL 5 fish at once from the 16" cube tank to the 4' tank. Could this be the reason of ammonia spike? It's like buying 5 fish at once from a petstore and put them in a new tank together. Or is this still parasite related disease?

I just realized this could be the reason why :cry1 I'm so foolish to have let this happen

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Hi, so sorry you are having trouble with your fish...that helpless feeling when they are sick is the worst. :cry1

Sorry to just chime in here but....you really...really....really...really need to get your water tested!! (If you haven't done so already.)

You should do this before adding anything to your tank, like the other posters have recommended. You can take it to the pet store to have it tested, or invest in an API kit which lasts a REEEAALLY long time. It's an invaluable tool that can mean the difference between life and death. It's very easy to do (I was intimidated at first, but I bought one and I am like a regular chemist now, testing water and PH and so on. :D )

The stress from bad water quality can bring on all these other problems. If your tank is still cycling, you need to test regularly so as to know when you need to change water....and then you will also be able to know when it has finished cycling.

I hope everything gets straightened out soon! I can tell you really do love your fish. I am rooting for them -- they are adorable. :)

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I agree with Lupin and Badfish here... YOU MUST GET YOUR WATER TESTED!! NOW!

It does you no good to keep guessing when the one thing that u REALLY need is water test results!!

I am very very sorry you lost your one fish! :cry1 I know how sad and frustrated you must feel.. But let's hope it's not too late for the others...

As Lupin said, Prime is an excellent water conditioner. I use that as well..

I still think WATER QUALITY and maybe parasites are the main thing here. Not you scaring them or anything like that.. Prob not the soap either as that should be gone by now...As far as you thinking you are scaring them goes, these fish are stressed and stressed fish often react to any change in lighting, or even change in noise, or a person going past the tank in this way. I think right now u should keep the lights dim, and maybe even cover the tank with a towel to give them peace... Its very important with sick fish..

Also are you absolutely sure that your tank is a 60 gallon? Its hard to tell from the picture but it looks like it could be smaller to me.. You must be POSITIVE or else it Is very possible you have overdosed with salt. As for knowing when u are at the right level of salt, you simply must calculate and keep records..

Also.. why is it so green and dirty looking? Is that green water? Are you trying to have green water? Is there build up of gunk in the filters? Or strong lighting here? I don't see any light at all... I am confused that it looks that way if you have been doing all the water changes like you say and there is not strong lighting...

Yes adding 5 fish to a new tank can cause a huge ammonia spike. (I am pretty sure I adressed that earlier in this thread) This is more reason why u MUST GET YOUR WATER TESTED.

PLease do not take this the wrong way... but there is only so much we are able to do for you if you will not get that done so we know what we are dealing with!! Its crucial here and it is unfair for us to keep guessing and trying to help when u won't take that very important step!

After you get the test results, you may want to consider doing a full water change.. Placing the fish in a bucket..Replacing ALL of the water in the tank with temperature matched water treated with prime.. Rinse out any gunk in the filters in OLD TANK WATER (not tap water!!!).... Then salt to 0.3%. You've been slowly slowy increaing when it is not needed. You can jump from 0 to 0.3% in a matter of 24 hours, and you've been doing it every so slighty.. At this point if you did a full water change you know you have removed ALL ammonia, all nitrite and you can salt all at once and put in EXACTLY the number it takes to get to 0.3%.. Which if your tank IS 60 gallons, is 180 tsp.. But... again.. you need the water tested right now!!!!!! We need to know what u have been dealing with!

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You know if you don't have the money or want to spend the money a lot of pet shops well test for you. Just take them some water and write it all down and let us know what the results are just ignore any advice they might give you.

I have done this a couple times even though I have test kits just to make sure I am reading everything right.

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Nakedsnake, has the package of prazi arrived yet? I haven't been in touch with my friend at the moment but I wanted to hear from you if you already obtained it.

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Guys, here are a few updates we needed.

1. Prazi has been sent off last Monday and since Tuesday is holiday for Australians, nakedsnake will get his prazi on Wednesday.

2. Regarding tablespoon-teaspoon conversion rate, for Australians, it is not 3 teaspoons per tablespoon (standard US measurement) but 4 teaspoons. We're one teaspoon off which means the salt could have been added by one more teaspoon! Nakedsnake, did you know this measurement before? This was clarified to me by my friend who sent the prazi.

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Lupin, I'm quoting the exact quote on the back of the packaging of the salt (Aquasonic Goldfish Water Conditioner).

"DIRECTIONS FOR USE: ADD ONE LEVEL TEASPOON (approx. 5gm) PER 10 LITRES OF WATER. DO NOT REDOSE WITHOUT A WATER CHANGE."

It clearly says "TEASPOON" and not "TABLESPOON".

So I had been using 1 level teaspoon per 10 litres (2.6 US gallons/ 2.2 Imperial gallons). And my fish were perfectly healthy in their 16" cube tank... only a month after their move to the 4' tank all22 broke loose. However, you guys up there have been using 1 level teaspoon per 1 US gallon. So, clearly the salt dosage you use was stronger than mine.

And you're right... what a bad luck that we just so happen to have holiday on Tuesday when I am dying to get the Prazi tablets... it should arrive today though.

---

CountryLovah, the water looks green because the salt is greenish yellow color and the current salt level in my tank is 0.275%. My fish seem barely able to tolerate the salt level as it is, so I'm highly hesitant to add to 0.3% level.

My camera is poor quality one so it could be just lighting, but the filter is clean.

I'm pretty sure it's 60 gallons. This site calculation says it's 55 gallons: http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/calculator.php

I am considering the sand, the space between surface of the water and top of the tank... so total net water volume.

---

Only that... I found this morning my red lionhead is upside down, still alive, but PINE-CONING from the rear part of his belly. :cry1 He's the only fish in the tank with this problem. PLS HELP GUYS! What should I do to treat pine-cone? Epsom salt? Or will the prazi do? I will have my water tested today.

Bubble eye: seems to be in best shape in the last two weeks. Eating in fact having a huge appetite... but still having slight effects of the disease.

Red cap oranda: is still having the worst effect of the disease... I don't think she'll last long... but eats now and then.

Pearl: is having effects of disease. Eats now and then.

Black ranchu: this mysterious fish is not feeling any effect of the disease at all although by now, all my other fish have been affected by it. I am positive he is not affected at all, and positive he is healthy... only that he bottom sits a lot thesedays and the once pig of the tank is now very picky of the foods... he takes soaked pellets from my finger and keeps chewing and throwing it out... and in the past two days, he's not going to the surface at all (only occasionally when he goes for a air gulp)... so I have been sinking the pellets and luckily he eats some and not throws it out. But I am positive he is not having parasite/ itch related disease... he just looks like fish who sleeps at night... bottom sits and looks like he's positively sleeping. Is the high salt level the cause of him bottom sitting?

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Okay I have not read this entire post just yet but I wanted to add something RIGHT away once I saw the words "scales sticking out like a pinecone"

It is going to be VERY important to seperate this fish into it's own hopsital tank. Do you have ANYTHING you can use for that? Even a rubbermaid container with a back up filter??

This fish if it is pineconing is going to need special treatment... Its going to need epsom salts yes, but u do NOT want to do epsom salts on ALL the fish.. just THIS FISH!. The other fish still need regular salt... Also an increase in temperature

Can u work on finding a way to get this fish in its own tank/container while I am reading the rest of the post?

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CountryLovah, the water looks green because the salt is greenish yellow color and the current salt level in my tank is 0.275%. My fish seem barely able to tolerate the salt level as it is, so I'm highly hesitant to add to 0.3% level.

Can you please go to the store and find some PLAIN aquarium salt... It shouldn't be green yellowish.. Just plain salt... Again, here is a link that included the salts that are safe.. Your salt still seems off to me with some of the ingredients and the coloring..

http://www.kokosgoldfish.invisionzone.com/forum/index.php?/topic/60876-using-salt/

The Black Ranchu.... I am glad that this fish does not seem to be experiencing major issues... I suppose this fish could just have a very strong immune system.. Or is responding better to the diasease or parasites... Just be glad..

However, yes it is possible that the salt COULD be causing some bottom sitting... Again... I think this could be related to the type of salt???

After you get the test results, you may want to consider doing a full water change.. Placing the fish in a bucket..Replacing ALL of the water in the tank with temperature matched water treated with prime.. Rinse out any gunk in the filters in OLD TANK WATER (not tap water!!!).... Then salt to 0.3%. You've been slowly slowy increaing when it is not needed. You can jump from 0 to 0.3% in a matter of 24 hours, and you've been doing it every so slighty.. At this point if you did a full water change you know you have removed ALL ammonia, all nitrite and you can salt all at once and put in EXACTLY the number it takes to get to 0.3%.. Which if your tank IS 60 gallons, is 180 tsp.. But... again.. you need the water tested right now!!!!!! We need to know what u have been dealing with!

I'm repeating this because I think this it your best option.

I think u need to GET YOUR WATER TESTED (seriously... how many times we gotta say that one????)... THEN do a FULL water change. I think you should find some OTHER brand of salt with less additives and is not GREEN. I think you should then dose the tank with 180 tsps of the new salt... Then.... if the fish are okay, you may be able to add an additional 60 tsp to make up for the different in Australian measurements. in time...

PLEASE either get ur water tested or by a test kit... I don't understand why that is the ONE thing that u will not do???? We can't keep treating these fish without knowing..

As for the pineconed fish.. As I said.. you must get him in a seperate tank.. That fish needs special care, and special meds... Metronidazole... The other fish should NOT get that. And the other fish should NOT get epsom salts... The pineconed fish needs the heat raised... This is crucial...

Lupin... your better with the meds in this area. Where can he get Metro? Just at the vet? Or is there a product that contains it???

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Sue, do you remember the salt Nakedsnake mentioned that contained several elements? The person sending prazi decided to research further on this "salt".

She found this excerpt from the Aquasonic website.

"Aquasonic Goldfish Water Conditioner".

GOLDFISH WATER CONDITIONER contains a mixture of 9 salts and natural minerals, providing goldfish and koi with trace elements, fungal and

bacterial inhibitors. Hardness is raised by 120ppm and salinity by 225ppm. Add with new aquarium water, when starting up or doing a water change.

* Add one level teaspoon (5gms approx) per 10 litres of water.

The ingredients are: sodium chloride, pottasium chloride, calcium sulphate, strontium chloride, magnesium sulphate. Contains small percantage of sodium thiosulphate, sodium biphosphate & sodium bicarbonate.

Interesting but unnecessary in my opinion and far different from the actual sodium chloride we want to use. Get the aquarium salt and forget this one. Oh, and sodium bicarbonate is similar to baking soda so this one does increase hardness levels a notch while sodium thiosulphate binds chlorine and chloramine to harmless form. I still worry the unnecessary presence of other elements.

Metro in Australia is by prescription only. I buy metro in pharmacies though. Try the vets if they have it but you need prescription for that. Very tricky.

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Okay I just got back and have my water tested...

Ammonia: 0

Nitrite: 0

Nitrate: 10 ppm

pH: 6.2 :krazy:

General hardness: 28 drops in the test kit before the water turns green! I have too much salt in my tank!!! Are you guys sure 0.3% salt level is really a "medication" level? Goldfish tolerates a maximum of 22 drops only.

I cannot believe it!!! How the heck is the pH so low??? When I change water (TWICE) everyday? When they had no problem whatsoever in the 16" cube tank?? Anyway, the shop keeper who seems to me very knowledgeable and very caring about the conditions of my tank says I don't have to worry about ammonia-nitrite-nitrate... I only have to worry about the pH now and reducing the salt level in my tank. I also bought carbonate hardness to increase the pH and pH test kit.

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Thank you for that Lupin!!!!!

Interesting but unnecessary in my opinion and far different from the actual sodium chloride we want to use. Get the aquarium salt and forget this one.

:exactly

Metro in Australia is by prescription only. I buy metro in pharmacies though. Try the vets if they have it but you need prescription for that. Very tricky.

This is where it gets soooo difficult! It is such a shame that the medications are not readily available....

Well.. lets see if we can get that fish in it's own hospital tank/tub with heat and epsom first.. The see if we can figure out something for the medications......

Lupin... your excellent with the math calculations.. What effect would this have on the amount of epsom salt?? Normally we recommend 1/4 tsp per 10 gallons of water... But if Australian tsp are different that could be increased very very slightly yes? I'm thinking just use a 1/4 tsp per 10 gallons but rather than make it completely level just let it overflow a tad.. (Real scientific terms here right?)

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