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M*gic

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Another thing I would like to note is my tank has no lights at all... the only lights I have has its white light tube broken, and only the blue tube was working... so I do not use it. I just got one on eBay for a 4' tank and is being shipped.

These are some of the old pics I have of the old tank (16" cube tank) you can see my fishies when they were healthy :)

tank1.jpg

tank2.jpg

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Good news!! My lionfish looks she's made significant recovery, in fact, looks totally fine now... swimming relaxed and not darting anymore. She vacuums the sand and really looks to see if she can find food... so I sank some hikaris and she swallowed them. Then moments later, she came to surface to beg for food :) so I fed him Hikaris...

The not so good news is my juvenile red cap oranda is not eating at all today although I sank some pellets in front of her. The condition with the bubble eye is not improving either.

Now I have added the salt up to 90 teaspoons (0.15% concentration) now. My question is how would this treatment affect the healthy fish? Would the 0.3% concentration affect them negatively?

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It's hard to say whether they will be able to tolerate it well or not however you can see signs of salt intolerance once the fish begins to gasp and seem to have suffered a lockjaw. In this case, you may need to lower the salt by doing water changes as necessary. Don't reduce too much at once as it could cause stress on the fish.

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Just to basically add my two cents to what everyone else has said and summarize..

1) Yes prazi AND salt are BOTH needed because they treat different parasites. Salt will NOT kill flukes, you NEED the prazi for that and there is a good chance that some of your fish are carrying a large fluke load.. (I believe this because of the scratching, bottom sitting, lack of visible parasites, and spitting out food). There are other medications that are aimed at getting rid of flukes but Prazi is the safest, so if possible it would be great for you to order that.. but if u cannot get it in time and u feel the fish are running out of time u may end up needing to resort to a different fluke treatment.

2)I'm unaware of any differences in the salt between the two countries. I have never heard of anything like that before so I ASSUME that the only reason u are seeing a difference in the amounts recommended is simply because often the packages are not trying to totally treat parasites. Usually the dosing is just to use the salt as a general tonic and stress reliever.. The salt I use (API Aquarium Salt) is the same way.. It recommends much less than the dose we use for parasite treatment. If any other mods/members are aware of any difference in salts, I would love to know.. If u have doubts about ur particular salt maybe u could find another brand?

3) MOST times salt at 0.3% will have no negative effect on the fish.. If the fish display any negative reaction then follow Lupin's instructions and reduce the salt gradually.. MOST goldfish can actually tolerate an even HIGHER level of salt if need be, but 0.3% is considered a safe and relatively stress free yet still effective level of salt. There are always exceptions. But I used salt on ALL of my fish many times (as part of QT and as part of disease treatment) and only had one minor incident of salt intolerance. My fish was fine at 0.2% but would bottom sit at 0.3%. In cases like this, you can alternate and give the fish a few days at 0.3% and then a few days at 0.2%. This way the fish has a break, but u are still treating.. In SOME cases u extreme salt intolerance is possible but they are pretty rare... And in those cases, reduce the salt to a level where u do not see any negative reaction GRADUALLY like Lupin explained.

Are you guys sure by increasing the salt to 0.3% and using Prazi they can recover? :(

To be 100% honest, no I am not sure, but there is a very very good chance!!! If the fish are still not doing well AFTER u have treated with salt, prazi and good clean water with 50% weekly changes, then we can consider something else to try to treat them.. :) There are still other options, but we need to rule out these things first.

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Thanks CountryLovah, good news is my healthy group is "healthy" and does not show being affected at all although they're constantly in direct contact with the sick group. And my lionfish is getting better every day and does not itch anymore.

Red cap oranda seems to get worse and bubble eye seems to get slightly better.

The "carrier" (aka the first fish who first showed the signs of parasites) was my lionfish and she's now well. If she can recover, I'm sure the affected fish can recover. Now I have to dilligently add salt and prazi.

Here,s the problem... the link Sakura gave me is from USA and the company does not ship internationally it seems. Is there a shop that sells and ships internationally (Australia)? Tried ebay Australia to no avail... one guy on eBay USA is selling the 16 oz bottles at double price.

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Nakedsnake, where in Australia are you located? I need to know your location so I can help you trace the much needed meds you want. I'm not surprised you can't find prazi locally. I have a fellow friend who is from Australia herself and she got some prazi tablets online. Will have to ask her where she got her prazi. I'll get back to you when I have her response. I still have to know your exact location though.

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My bubble eye is dying guys

Please help! :please

The salt add doesn't seem to help her at all (now at 0.2% concentration)... it looks like she needs Prazi treatment. The problem is: taking into account the shipping time from USA, my goldie might reach critical condition when the medication arrives... so we have to do this quickly. PLease help guys!!!

My lionfish seems to have made 100% recovery though which is great... eating like a pig and looking like a normal healthy fish. The salt seems to really help her.

I have some concerns about my black ranchu, he normally eats like a pig, but now taking long long time to chew and swallow one pellet (already soaked too!). He's eating like a grandpa... and seems to show a bit less appetite although he still begs for food. And most often, he chews one pellet, and throws out half and swallow half.

Then my pearlie seems to have lost focus at times... he's over-eager for foods, but when I stick my finger in with a soaked pellet on it, he attacks my finger and swims around it... when the pellet drops, he chases the pellet with speed and instead of being focused like he used to be and eat it, he swims through it... it seems he's lost focus thesedays and can't correctly target his food... he's "shooting" at blank food...

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Good news!!! My juvenile red cap oranda is doing fine... reflexes are good, first time ever since he got sick he went to surface to grab his own pellets. Again reflexes are like a perfectly normal healthy fish, I hope he can sustain this.

The bubble eye doesn't seem to get better though although she "looks" better. She's just not eating at all.

I fed some live brine shrimp to the tank... could they have any medicinal impact at all? The red cap oranda ate quite a few when he was still sick.

No prazi added. He lost some scales but won the parasite battle. :whatjust:

Edited by nakedsnake
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No... I said no prazi added.

So now, the sick group is down from 3 fish to 1. My bubble eye.

The salt seems to help her battle the parasites... although it's only helping her get through days. But my real concern now is she hasn't eaten for the past 5 days... and is getting weaker. Although the parasites are not winning, she might lose the battle because of not enough strength to carry on.

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I think u should see if u could find the Aqua worm like Lupin suggested. That looks to be ur best bet!!! You can def take the salt up to the 0.3% level now.. I see you've been adding it very very slowly but u can do faster than this.

How have u been managing with water changes? Are u doing larger changes now? Are you remembering to add the salt back in.

Any chance u have taken ur water to be tested yet? That's a VERY IMPORTANT step that I feel has been neglected so far..

If it were me I would take a sample of the water to the pet store ASAP and while there see if they have the Aqua Worm..

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Okay now I'm pissed... two fish recovered and another got sick (my red lion)...

This is a disease unlike I've ever seen. The goldie literally shaking from the tip of the mouth to the tip of the tail like someone on the verge of death. And the shaking is so bad it's like someone buck-naked in Siberia... it's so bad I feel so bad for my fish. I suspect this is something other than parasite.

Lately, I've been thinking it could be my hand soap? Whenever I put my hand in the tank, I always wash with it. It's Palmolive Antiseptic... which is very strong. But I never fail to wash and rinse my hands thoroughly. I can't help though, every time I wash my hands, I rinse them thoroughly and to check if the soap residue is on my hands I rub my hands against each other and the soap never seems to wash off. And I accidentally splashed some of the soap water to my face and it got my eye and woww... it hurts so bad. My eyes have contracted soap water before and it's painful, but this hurts like twice more than normal soap.

Could the soap be the reason why my fish is like this? I really don't think it's parasites... they look too much in pain to be parasites.

The good news is of course my lionfish and red cap oranda made it... so this can be recovered.

---

CountryLovah, yes I change water twice a day now with that 15 lt bucket.

In case, this is truly parasite-related disease, can someone PLEASE help me buy the Prazi and ship it to me in Australia? I can pay you via PayPal, PLEASEEEE my fish are dying!!!! Shipping cost should be about $10-20 for a small bottle. I know you guys have Priority Mail International please use it and ship to me... plssssss

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^What is carbon, like the one used inside a normal filter?

My white lionfish is healthy, but I can't help but notice her mouth got disfigured even worse than last week when she slammed into tank's side glass head/ mouth first... because of this disease. It's like pointing forward now, like someone who points their mouth forward and she can't seem to position her jaw back into place. She is perfectly healthy and still eating with that (should be painful) mouth, but I am concerned.

My bubble eye has not eaten for the past 1 week... and seems to get weaker by the day. How long can a goldie last not eating? What should I do??

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Yes, carbon is a filter media that look like black granules. They absorb contaminants such as tannins, chemicals, odor, stains, etc.

I've lost track of what meds you had been adding. How much salt have you added? How did you administer the salt? It is likely the culprit if your lionhead's lockjaw. If you added 0.3%, do a water change now to lower it to 0.2%. Let us know if it improves the lockjaw situation.

A healthy goldfish can go without food for a week or two. I would be concerned however if it is sick. It needs nutritious foods. Have you tried persuading it by feeding foods laced in garlic? How does its poop look currently?

I need to refresh my memory on this assessment.doh11.gif

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What is carbon, like the one used inside a normal filter?

Yes the black stuff that looks like gravel.... When u are medicating u always want to remove the carbon because carbon removes impurities from the water. So if you ever have anything in your tank you WANT to remove, fresh carbon helps.

I do still think this could be parasites. Very much. Parasites that are not treated can can severe disease including death. The soap is something I would be concerned about for sure though still. You need to rinse SOOO good to the point where u can no longer smell any soap residue. You can use regular bar soap and then just rinsed really really really well.. But I wouldn't rule out parasites yet.

I could possibly help you with the prazi. I'm not sure if I can right now..I have never recieved money through paypal so I don't know how that works.. Can u take it OUT of your paypal account right away? Right now I am BROKE. literally FLAT BROKE. So I can't afford to purchase it/ship it unless I have the money first. Like.. if Paypal takes a few days to send the money or transfer it into an account, I couldn't do it until it went through.. BUT.. I think that it will take too long. By the time I order the prazi and have it shipped to MY house. Then ship it to YOU.. That's could end up taking weeks. If it IS flukes and ur fish are already suffering this much, I don't think they can wait that long... Also... having it shipped to my house and then to yours could end up totaling $40. Is it worth that much just to have it arrive late?

At this point I am thinking ur best bet may be to talk to local fish stores and find an alternate treatment that will kill flukes... Prazi is preferred but it sounds like things are taking a turn for the worse and something needs to be done SOON..

The main concern when using harsher meds is that the water is safe (no ammonia, etc). Make sure that there is a good oxygen flow... I know this isn't ideal but I think it may be the better choice here. What do you think Lupin do you agree?

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I'm considering contacting my friend from Australia to ship prazi to him. Much cheaper this way I think. But Nakedsnake, you can't find any prazi in your local stores? How about your local clubs and Australian forums? If you can't find prazi, the other choice is fenbendazole. I haven't tested albendazole yet so I can't vouch for its effectiveness.

I agree with you so far, Sue.

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Basically I have six fish now...

1. Black ranchu (blind)

2. Bubble eye

3. White lionhead

4. Pearlie that could be a ryukin

5. Juvenile red cap oranda

6. Red lionhead

This is an order of fish addition (I bought them one by one), so my first goldie was black ranchu (blind) and then the bubble eye, so on.

The timeline of fish addition and when the disease...

This was when my tank was still the 16" cube. Back in July 2009, the first fish was #1 black ranchu, then about one week later I added #2 bubble eye, and in mid August 2009 I added #3 white lionhead, and then about early September 2009 later I added #4 pearl.

Then about end of November 2009 I added the #5 juvenile red cap oranda. And clearly by this time, the tank was overcrowded so I bought a 4' tank for them.

(To note: when they were in the 16" cube tank, I regularly (always) changed 10% water every day. When they were in this tank, they were NEVER EVER sick... all were happy, and all were eating fine and healthy. AND NOTE THAT AT THIS TIME, THE SALT CONCENTRATION WAS A MERE 0.025% WHICH I THOUGHT WAS THE PERFECT SALT DOSE).

Then about 2 weeks after the addition of fish #5 (mid-December 2009), I moved them to the 4' tank.

Then about three weeks after their move to the 4' tank (first week of January 2010), the first fish (#3 white lionhead) got the disease. She began to bottom-sit, I thought she was just resting, which was unusual because she was always active or busy avoiding me when I came near to tank. This time she's just watching me as I came near her. So I left her alone, thinking she was just resting. Then I took shower, came back to the room, and there she went nuts she was like swim-rocketing (I don't try to be mean, but if you've seen a feeder goldie in paranoia horror being fed to a tank of carnivores, it's exactly like that, only times 10x like Scooby Doo seeing ghost) in every direction going sideways, upside down, her slender body (unlike the other round lionfish) enables her to swim fast like a common single tail goldfish, so she is FAST when she went nuts. So unable to control herself, she slams onto tank's side glass head/ mouth first. Lupin, this is how she got her mouth disfigured, not because of the water salinity.

And about 3 days after the fish #3 white lionhead got the disease, I added fish #6 red lionhead. So it couldn't be possibly fish #5 or #6 contracting the disease. Fish #5 (juvenile red cap oranda was added when they were still in the cube tank and considerably a lot of time before white lionhead got her disease. Fish #6 was added AFTER she got the disease. So I don't think this is about the "new fish addition" disease.

---

So like flies, they dropped down one by one... in second week of January fish #2 bubbleye contracted the disease and went nuts as well. The shaking is so intense I was convinced at times they were not only in pain but also like in EXTREME COLD. I cannot stress the intense shaking enough. Is it normal for parasite-infected goldie to shake so horribly and badly?

Then about three days later fish #5 juvenile red cap oranda contracted the disease as well.

For about days, I divided them into 2 groups... the sick group (fish #2 bubble eye, #3 white lionhead, #5 red cap oranda) and the healthy group (fish #1 black ranchu, #4 pearl, #6 red lion). For days the sick group was sick, and the healthy group was not affected. They literally divided themselves, the sick group "hanged out" at the bottom left side of the tank, while the healthy group hanged out at the mid-surface of the right side of the tank.

Then I frantically started this thread and tried to find answers. I guess, I found them.

So I started adding salt from 0.025% to 0.1%, then one day later at 0.15% I began to note fish #3 white lionhead began to eat a little bit. When the salt was increased to 0.175% the white lionhead stopped bottom-sit and started to be active swimming and eating sinking foods. Then around 5 days ago, she looked completely recovered. Then about 3 days ago, fish #5 juvenile red cap oranda also recovered. Both are now eating and swimming actively. Thanks to the salt!

Just when I thought I'd have 5 fish in the healthy group, yesterday my fish #6 red lionhead appeared to show all-too-familiar symptoms. He's still eating sinking pellets but like the sick fish #3 and #5 who have recovered, he's bottom-sit and wouldn't come to the surface to grab foods. And worse, today I just saw my pearl got the same thing!!!

Holy ^*%#$&&*@)(&$#)^$(*$*(*

I &*%*&^(*&&**) HATE THESE PARASITE MOTHER &%^$^()*_()*&(*&)()(

They caused my babies to be so much in pain

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Good news though is my bubbleye is eating. I kinda forced her lol

I caught her in the fish netbut still under water... as she is resting and "breathing", that mouth is sucking like a vacuum cleaner, so I dropped blood worms and they sank straight down on her face, then that vacuum did the rest of the job. When they were sucked into her mouth, she showed indifference, but I noticed she was chewing... but just when I feared she would spat them out like she did a few days ago when I forced her to eat the same way, she didn't this time, and just stopped chewing, that means, she swallowed them !! :whatjust:

So I did the same thing over and over, until the blood worm in the soaking bowl finished, and then added about 2-3 Hikari Lionhead sinking pellets that I soaked first.

She ate em all !!! WOOOOOOO :whatjust:

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Here's my thoughts on the whole situation..Think about it. You had the three original fish in the 16" cube. It was too small for them. Your daily 10% changes probably kept the water quality in check for the most part. But the tank being small was probably stressful for them. And u never DID check your ammonia/nitrite/nitrate/or pH. So any one of those things could have still been off stressing the fish more.. THEN, new fish were added. (#'s 4 and 5) so basically you added TWO new fish to a container that was already too small. Either of those two fish could have had parasites and passed them along to the other fish, which were susceptible to them because they were already stressed by crowdedconditions, then stressed by new tankmates.. In perfect conditions, maybe they could have fought it off, but because the conditions were crowded they were already probably weakened and prone to disease/parasites. THEN, you added them to the new larger tank. GREAT MOVE. BUT... still STRESSFUL for the fish.. It's still a new home. PLUS, when u ADDED them to this new tank, you did NOT monitor water conditions so most LIKELY u are starting your cycle all over again. You probably had spikes of ammonia or nitrites... ALSO stressors...

The sickness showed up about 5 weeks after the new fish were bought. Imo ALWAYS says that often the effects of stress happen approx one month AFTER the actual "event". (In this case adding new fish that were not QTed or treated for parasites).

Basically the more "stressors" the more likely ur fish are to get sick. Fish can appear healthy for a long time and then suddenly something causes them to be too weak, or too stressed, and that is PRECISELY when parasites take hold..

The flashing, and knocking into glass.. YES that is classic parasite behavior. Even the "sick" group huddled together in the corner is very typical in my opinion.

The good news is that SALT is helping. The other good news is that you have not lost a fish yet. Stick to that salt.. See if Lupin can find someone to get you the prazi. Keep up with the water changes.. And finally.... please get your water tested.. please? U still have not gotten that done, and normally we really aren't even SUPPOSED to give advice here without test results.. I just see that u really care and are really trying.. but I really really REALLY urge u to get a test kit....

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