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Sakura

Sophie Is Swollen And Pineconing

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Doesnt seem to be the epsom or peas then.

Tail and fin red streaks can easily be caused by stress but the body red I dunno. Did you ever salt to 0.3%..I suppose it could be flukes still. PC tabs should really be repeated. Fish can cope fine with a small load of parasites but they can multiply quite suddenly when fish get stressed.

Slam dunk bottom sitting is not normal. Bottom hovering can be. Is Mandarin right on the bottom? Are his fins clamped?

Did you say you had fed all the fish medicated food at one point?

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Sophie is just bottom hovering. Mandarin is bottom sitting only occasionally (looks like boredom?) and his fins aren't clamped. Telle hovers by the bottom too, but I think it's because she wants to stay by near others. Yes, when Sophie first pineconed, I fed them all only Jungle antibacterial food for about two days. Honestly I can't remember if I salted to 0.3% when I first got them. For a while there, I was keeping the tank salted just in general, but then I stopped. I don't remember which fish have and which haven't been exposed to the salt and for how long. The aquarium salt level was about 1/2 teaspoon for every gallon, because that's what it said to do on the package. (In retrospect that seems like a lot, but I don't know!) I want to say that all of them were exposed to the salt in their water, but I don't know for sure and I don't know for how long they were.

I now know that PC tabs should be repeated, but I didn't know that back then :( I was also still undecided back then whether salt should be used all the time as a general tonic, or just when needed (for ich, etc.) That's why this is all so disorganized. :doh11:

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Okay, I have to revise the above. Sophie is actually bottom sitting as well. The only one who isn't is Telle. It's so hard to get an accurate look, because they all come to the front as soon as they see me! :)

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Okay :whatjust:

Now we have a better, clearer picture :)

Plan of action for Mandarin, Sophie and Telle:

Slowly begin salting. 0.1% today which is ONE level teaspoon of the right kind of salt (no YPS) dissolved first in a clean plastic or glass container of old tank water. It sounds a lot but actually your goal is to increase this amount X 3 over the next 2 days so this is not a lot at all.

Salting is very good for so many things and should be done at least once to this high level for all fish at some point.

Jungle food cannot be fed for 2 days only. It will make any bacteria inside stronger. You need to go back to that same food and feed it for the full course which is I believe 14 days. How long has it been opened? Any more than a month it is no longer any good. You really need fresh antibiotic food as damp destroys its potency.

Okay? :heart

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Okay Trinket.

I can start salting tonight, and my antibacterial food was first opened under two months ago. Is this acceptable to use? I bought it back when I joined this forum, which I don't think was any more than two months ago, and maybe even less than that. While feeding this food, I must feed only this right? No peas or regular pellets? Also, does this mean I should do a large water change to get the Epsom salt out? So just do the Jungle food and salt, with no PC tabs?

I'm thinking it might be a good idea to do this in my 55 gallon tank too, since those fish have a very similar story. There is no sign of odd behavior from anyone in that tank, but maybe just as a precaution? Would you advise doing this?

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Yes. If you have never salted the 55 its a good idea. They are goldfish right? Not marine/trops?

Salt can be used prophylactically anyway without damaging the fish unlike most other meds.

Large water change to remove most of the epsom (a tiny amount will be fine with salt) and start them on the Jungle again. You joined 2nd November ( it says in your avator) so its under two months. Did you keep the Jungle sealed and in a dry cool place during that time?

No PC tabs. No peas or other food when feeding Jungle antibacterial food.

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Ooops, I didn't notice that under my avatar! The Jungle food was kept with the top closed tight in the cupboard that is directly underneath my 29 gallon fish tank. It is cool in that part of the room and dark, since it was in a cupboard. Since the lid was closed hopefully no moisture found its way in?

And yes, the 55 gallon has 4 goldfish only.

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You're ready to go :)

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Trinket, I think I need more help!

To recap: .1% salt was added about 24 hours ago, and I'm back to feeding the anti-bac foods like you recommended. Before I made this change, they had Epsom salt in the water and were being fed peas (I'm sure you remember this). After about 24 hours of the Epsom salt treatment Sophie was looking considerable slimmer and not pineconed at all! However, they were mostly bottom sitting, as you know. So you suggested I stop the Epsom and switch to NaCl and anti-bac food. For the first 12 hours after adding the NaCl and feeding anti-bac food, the fish all seemed to have much more energy, and were rooting around busily in the gravel like healthy goldfish should - it was wonderful! However, tonight they are back to bottom sitting (not with clamped fins) and Sophie looks bad again! She is swollen and pineconed just like before :( I am bummed. It seemed like the Epsom salt was really helping her, and this new treatment maybe isn't? I'm not sure, but to me that's how it seems. Maybe you can offer some insight that I'm missing.

I have another question as well: the salt has been at .1% for 24 hours. When should I add more to up it to .2%? OH! I just read one of your above posts, and I should up it to .3% over the course of two days, right? So I should be able to add another 1 teaspoon per gallon tonight, if I'm understanding correctly. Also, just a minor question, about how much of the anti-bac food should I be giving them each day?

As always, I (and the fish) appreciate your help :)

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Oh dear Im so sorry they are bottom sitting now. You say the epsom helped but didnt it also start off Sophies redness? I'm not sure what to suggest if she is bloating again with the reg salt. 0.1% is a very low dose. It is sometimes so difficult without actually seeing the fish..

How often are you doing water changes? Do they tend to perk up after a water change? Is your pH still stable?

I would continue the salt treatment I think unless it really makes things a lot worse..

The Jungle can be fed according to instructions since your fish are approx the size that the food is marketed for (2 to 3 inch fish).

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Well, Sophie did have a possible reaction to the Epsom within the few hours after it was added. But by the next day (with Epsom still present) she looked really good and almost totally normal.

So far I've done weekly large water changes, but don't have a gallon amount set in stone yet because the tank just totally finished cycling about last week. I'm still figuring out a good amount to change for my particular tank each week. pH seems stable, but I have not checked it routinely - I know, bad! :( But... the pH readings from when the tank was beginning to cycle and the readings from yesterday were the same. So it could have fluctuated some during cycling (which was fast with the Cycle product added) when I wasn't testing for it, but seems to be stable now- to me.

Come to think of it, it was after a large water change that I added the salt, so maybe that's the reason why they seemed so much happier last night! After thinking about what you said, I think it might be a good idea to continue with the salt and anti-bac at least for a while yet and see how it goes. Maybe I'm just worrying too much. :doh11:

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You are not worrying too much. It takes months and months to get a tank settled, sorted and safe. I am beginning to think more water changes are the answer here since that is when they perked up. It may be your pH is unstable and dropping and the water changes bump it back up...or the cycle is still a little unstable.

I would see how they are with partial water changes daily for a week. And the salt can be increased after that. If you have started on the antibac food then that must be continued for the full course and should help too.

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Really? Hmmm...well, I'm not doubting your experience at all, but before I resort to more daily water changes I'd like to first maybe monitor the pH daily for a while, and see if it's changing. To me it doesn't seem like it is, but maybe if I test the tap, and then test the tank each day for a while I could have a better picture of that. I could even try one water change, testing pH before and after to see if it changes. All the other levels in the tank are perfect, so I am reluctant to go through all that water. What is it exactly that takes months and months to get the tank safe if all the critical things (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH) are testing safely?

I will keep up with the anti-bac food regardless since I've started it, like you said. They ate everything I gave them tonight and seem to be doing decently for the time being. So I'm off to bed, and I'll check for your response tomorrow!

I forgot to add something that may be important, and I need to check parameters tomorrow to find out if it is or not. I have three filters on this tank, and yesterday I noticed one wasn't working and was making a loud noise. I think it was like this for a while (but less than 12 hours), and there might be a chance that the bacteria in there died. I'm pretty optimistic though, because it was just one out of three filters, plus I have gravel in the tank for bacteria. So we'll see about that when I test tomorrow, but I just thought I'd mention it for now.

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What is it exactly that takes months and months to get the tank safe if all the critical things (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH) are testing safely?

What exactly takes months and months is for the bbs to stabilise and level out to the exact right amount for the tanks needs. This can take some time and is rarely settled in 2 months. A really robust army of bbs that can handle setbacks/meds and temperature plunges actually takes at least 6 months and sometimes even years.

This is why we hear the aquatic terms "established" cycle/tank and "delicate" cycle. A delicate cycle is one where the slightest thing will knock the cycle off kilter and tweaks of ammonia will appear or the pH will begin to drop. It is usually seen in early stage recently cycled tanks or tanks that have experienced recent cycle crashes because of meds or lapsed water changes etc.

Bbs are cut back or go into hiatus when the temperature drops, when the fish are not fed enough or are fed different amounts or even different types of foods, when you leave your filter off, when the pH drops or fluctuates, when algae dies, when there is too much brown algae..many, many, many reasons.

When you say "Before I resort to more water changes I'd like to first monitor the pH daily" it sounds like you consider water changes a terrible chore. Actually they are the very frontline most important preventative medication we have in easy access as fishowners. I wonder why you consider them something to be resorted to because most fish owners will tell you they are ours and a fishes best friend.

Yes, you do need to monitor pH especially if you do not know your kH/gH. Let me give you an example: With an alkalinity of say 40 (kH) and a tap pH of 7 you are looking at your pH holding stable in the tank between 1 or two days only :o with no added buffer and no water change. Lower than 40 kH , zero for example- and the pH can plunge in hours!!!

This means within 2 days your pH could plunge to 6.5 or lower and be very dangerous and have the fish bottom sit as the water slips into acidity. pH does not stay the same usually as it did when you put the water in unless you are using some longterm buffer. You need to know how far your pH drops/how quickly and for how long your water can maintain it.

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The reason why I said "before I resort to more water changes" is because I'm reluctant to go through more water than necessary - especially without fully knowing the reason for why I should. See what I mean? But you provided some really good information about bbs, unfortunately pH is still just as confusing for me as it always has been though! You said that pH will just continue to drop in a fish tank, but why is this? And is it necessary or helpful to add some sort of buffer (chemical or otherwise) to keep this from happening? I've just never before heard of pH being such a problem in the average healthy tank.

Anyways, salt currently is still only at .2%. I haven't increased it because I've been really busy (my husband is back from training for only a few days, so I've been really busy running around with him and visiting people). But I'm also afraid to, because since I put the NaCl in, the fish seem worse, and I didn't know if it was from that or something else. I checked the pH again today and it was 7.8 (the highest it goes on the normal pH card). Out of curiosity I tried the high range pH test, and got a result of 8.2. Does this mean I should always be using the high range test? At any rate, the pH in the tank is not slipping into acidity, so that's not the reason for the bottom sitting.

All the fish are bottom sitting almost all of the time, and Sophie is still pineconed. Tellie has her dorsal fin down. Mandarin comes to the top occasionally when he sees movement (I think he's looking for food). I'm still feeding them only the anti-bac. food. They just seem a lot worse since removing the epsom salt, and I'm pretty worried about them but don't know what I should do.

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I was able to get to the fish store today, and I picked up some metronidazole just in case I end up needing it. It's not MetroMeds, it's called Metro Plus, but the main ingredient is metronidazole. Will this work just as well in case I end up needing it?

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You may need to separate her if you want to treat her. Yes something like Metro Plus is fine if we cant get her back without it. Metro Plus just contains a chelating agent with the Metro to maximise effectiveness.

Are you doing any gravel vacuuming? And how often has that been done? It is just one more thought and may be irrelevant but my pearlscales were extra sensitive to fermenting gases that can collect under gravel.

The pH sounds to be dropping slightly in the tank. If that reading was right after or just one day after a water change it may be aproblem. To know exactly how much your pH will drop you need to know your kH and gH.

Stores will do this test for you free.

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Nope the pH is not dropping, it's the same as it was a week ago. The most current pH reading was done this morning, and the last water change was at least two days ago. The two pH readings (a few days apart) are exactly the same.

I do a water change with a very thorough gravel vacuuming at least once a week on this tank. The gravel is a very thin layer, and I completely move it around, so I hesitate to think it's because of gasses.

I don't know if it would be best to separate her, since they're all doing so badly. But I can try that if you think it might help. All three have been bottom-sitting all weekend long, and it's really worrisome. I don't really know whether to continue with the NaCl and anti-bac food, or to switch to Epsom salt and the Metro plus. :( I guess I have to finish the treatment with the anti-bac food at least, since I've already started it, but I could switch out the salt and try something different. I don't want them to die, and the current treatment doesn't seem to be helping at all. :(

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Okay good on the pH and gravel.

I read back your whole thread and see that Sophie actually came to you sick. That she had damaged fins?

I wonder if this is something she has had all along and has brought in to the tank. It does look like all the fish are infected and so separating at this point would not be the answer.

How many days now of salt and jungle? I would I think change out all the salt and replace it with epsom. Add the Metroplus and continue with the Jungle.

You would need to watch your tank params closely as all water meds can affect bbs and cycle.

How is the temperature? Stable?

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Okay. Yes, I got Sophie from a fish store that had her in a tank with a betta. :doh11: I felt so bad for her and just had to get her out of that situation. I think her shredded fins were just from betta aggression, but it could be that she had something else going on as well.

As for temp, I think it's been fairly stable with no huge swings. I keep it at about 78 degrees F with a heater.

Salt and Jungle has been four days now. I also like the idea of epsom and metro-plus with continuing the Jungle food. I'm so glad I was able to find the Metro, and it wasn't as difficult to find as I thought it would be! :)

Here's the instructions on the container, could you check them and confirm it for me? I want to make sure I do this right!

Use 1 capful (.97 g) per 10 gallons of water. Partial or complete water changes must be made prior to the beginning of treatment and every 24 hours thereafter, followed by re-treatment. Repeat the treatment every 24 hours for 5 to 7 days or until mortalities cease or healing of lesions occurs. Does this look right to you Trinket?

I hope this works :unsure:

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those are great directions! Obiviously written by someone with goldies~~` :)

check params but you should be ok! :heart

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Oh hey Stephie, thanks for the input :) I'll remember to keep a close eye on the water parameters, and I'm hoping (perhaps against hope) that they'll stay good!

I'm off to get started on changing out this water. I have to clean the 55 gallon tonight too yet. :krazy:

I really hope my little guys pull through. :(

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Oh, I have one other question I guess! Would it be a good idea to treat my 55 gallon tank (with four fancies) with this treatment as well, kind of as a preventative? I use all the same equipment between tanks, and I would hate to harbor any baddies in the big tank while I get rid of them in the small one, and then have them transfer back over. Know what I mean? Or is that a bad idea?

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